Risk in buying a second-hand i-Miev

[lesliev]

Hi all!

I have to get another car (my existing one is expiring) and I'm keen to get an electric car if possible. Electric cars are still rare in NZ, there are only two models commercially available - the Nissan Leaf and the iMiev.

I'm interested in this one: http://www.andrewsimms.co.nz/our-stock/view/used/13628398.html
It's 3 years old but it's only done 1700km and it's going at a relatively low price (28k USD) - they are 48k USD new here!.

The only problem is the battery. Because it's not new, the 10 year warranty falls away and there's no warranty on the battery at all. (though in fact it seems the battery is excluded anyway when I read the PDF here: http://www.mmnz.co.nz/10-year-warranty)

The dealership won't quote me a price on a new battery, all they can tell my is that it should be around $15k USD. They also won't speculate how long the battery should last - all they can tell me is that "they've never had to replace one yet so they don't know". So given that the battery costs half the car, there's a significant risk in buying this car, should the battery fail or be in bad condition.

Still I'm probably going to stick with whatever I buy for at least 5 years, so this is my chance to get an electric. I've only spoken to the dealers over the phone, I'm thinking of going in and looking at the car. I'm also wondering if I won't be able to get in contact with the previous owner.

So:
1. What questions should I ask?
2. Is there any way to check if the battery is in good condition or tell if it has been abused?
3. Have the batteries/iMiev's been improved between 2010 and 2013?
4. Would you buy this car?

I intend to use this car for a 42km round-trip daily commute.

 

[MLucas]

They should at least be able to do a battery test for you, at a minimum. That should give you a good idea of the state of the current battery. As long as the battery is in good shape you should be able to see five years out of this car. 42km round trip commute is no problem with an easy 100km range, with careful driving 120km is very possible. Even if you drop down to 80% capacity you'll still make it! It's a nice looking unit, I'd definitely look into it.

 

[acensor]

Hi all!

I have to get another car (my existing one is expiring) and I'm keen to get an electric car if possible. Electric cars are still rare in NZ, there are only two models commercially available - the Nissan Leaf and the iMiev.

I'm interested in this one: http://www.andrewsimms.co.nz/our-stock/view/used/13628398.html
It's 3 years old but it's only done 1700km and it's going at a relatively low price (28k USD) - they are 48k USD new here!.......
...........I'm also wondering if I won't be able to get in contact with the previous owner.

So:
1. What questions should I ask?
2. Is there any way to check if the battery is in good condition or tell if it has been abused?
3. Have the batteries/iMiev's been improved between 2010 and 2013?
4. Would you buy this car?

I intend to use this car for a 42km round-trip daily commute.

1. and 2.
Ask them to run a battery test.... It should reveal if it's been seriously degraded, and if it's got some significant defect OTHER than just general loss of capacity.
Ask them to fully charge it and let you drive it around town in circles (so to speak) and see how far you can get before it's down to only two bars.
If you can go 80 km or more I'd consider it to be in reasonably newish condition.
IMO driving it x-kilometeris really the ultimate practical measure of its capacity/condition.
Of course you can't run this test on a route with lots of steep climbs, or with the heater or airconditioner running.
Besides, it's not unreasonable to take a good long test drive anyway.

Ask them to access all the service records and determine if all updates/recalls were done on it. In fact ask them to let you see the service records on screen and you might even be able to sneak a peek at the previous owner's name and contact info. <g>

Ask them to provide the contact info of the previous owner(they CAN get that). Likely they'd refuse on privacy grounds. Tell them that's fine, but would they contact the previous owner and ask him/her if he/she would either contact you (you have a few questions about the car only previous owner could really answer) or give them permission to give out their contact info TO you.

4. It's hard for us in the USA to even THINK about buying this car. Not because it might not be a GREAT car for you but many of us having recently purchased new MiEV's for under $15,000 (after dealer discounts and tax credits) can't imagine paying that much for a used one.
3. Don't know. Doubt that's a significant factor for you though. Are there even any 2013 MiEV's available in NZ?

CURRENTLY if I wanted to order a new battery pack from Mitsubishi here in the USA it would be about $15,000US.
Most of us here who believe we will keep our EVs long enough to ever need new batteries are pretty much figuring that by that time batteries will be better, cheaper, and third party vendors will be offering us some cheaper options (much as has happened for the few owners of older Prius when they went out battery shopping.

At your need for only 42km range (OK lets say 60km and cut you some slack) the battery would have to be TERRIBLY degraded or an actual defect for it not to have that much range.
I've gotten as much as 185 kilometers on one charge on my MiEV. Although mine wasn't used (got it only three months ago) it had been 2.5 years since it's manufacture date when I got it.
The "official" range on a new battery is claimed to be about 100km. Most of us here get more.

If you don't think there are other buyers waiting in the wings you can always haggle price (I suppose that's not unheard of in NZ).

Not sure what the warrenty policies are in NZ but here, GENERALLY speaking, warrenties transfer with the car as long as the time and distance and other requirements have not been violated. Sometimes it's necessary to draw up some minor formal papers transferring the warrenty coverage from original buyer to second owner. I'd THINK the dealer SHOULD really be up on that sort of thing.
If you have questions like that you might phone the other MiEV dealers in NZ and see if they all give the same answers.<g>

My two cents.
Alex

 

[Leafboi]

With the 2010 i-MiEV check the charge port...

I know the Australian delivered models do not support the SAE J1772 plug/connector. I don't know what specification they are but they are not compatible with most public charge stations.

This will become a problem when the the 2010s leased here in Australia, for the initial trials (some 110 units) start to come up for sale at the end of their leases.

 

[psyflyjohn]

First of all, add to the price the cost of a new paint job. That one is a butt-ugly billboard!

I've had our Miev for over a year now, with absolutely no problems.

But..... given the current lack of a track record on batteries, I wouldn't gamble on one without a warranty.
It appears that the one for sale is a demo. They should be willing to prorate the warranty at least. If they don't, it reflects a lack of confidence by the dealer. Act accordingly.

Good luck.

Remember, there will be more electrics available down the line. Hopefully with a smaller price tag. I read somewhere that the sticker price of the Leaf was reduced by $5000 recently.

 

[Hippie403]

I wonder how much it would cost to ship an i-MiEV from Australia to NZ? There have been a number of "new" 2012 i-MiEVs sold recently for $25K AUD. The sums might work out to get one here and have it shipped over. Mitsubishi Australia isn't going to stock i-MiEVs in Australia anymore and the dealers that still have stock are running them out. I'd ring around NZ dealers and see what sort of deal that can do you on a new one. I think the 2011/2012 models are more desirable than the 2010, the charge port compatibility issues that have already been mentioned.

 

[iMiEVNZ7]

HI Lesliev,
welcome to the forum and it is great to see another NZ'er keen to buy here in NZ !

I also looked at the cars on trademe.co.nz and enquired about the cars, they seem a good buy, but we couldn't get the finance deal as good as we liked and with our required range to go to our Sheffield base, we were about 15 Kms or so short of range, so without any reasonably priced fast chargers available for less than $ 37, 000 NZ at the time, we decided on a Prius C which gives us 5 litres per 100 Km and some electric running, about 2 km , yes only 2 km, at a time.

We really do miss the imiev which we took for a four day test, from a Canterbury dealer here, and checked out range and suitability over the long weekend. We found the range to be about 100 Kms at 100 Km / Hr on a level road. We still want to buy the car, we were offered 8.5 % finance and the car at $ 48, 800 with 700 Kms on the clock, and at lest four hundred of that was us !

I tried Auckland and the best offer was $ 37, 800 NZ at 11.5 % I think, so overall both were about $ 210 per week over five years. estimated power use for 500 km per week was $ 15 per week.

Our weekly fuel usage for work is about $ 200 odd, and so both options meant it would be about the same as running our normal car, but with the cool feeling of being electric and no gas stations to visit each week.

In the end we went with the Prius at $ 33, 500 I think, and at 11. 5 % finance worked out at about $ 170 per week, after refunding the gst back to the loan, as we are a business, and we now spend about $ 50 per week on fuel so have about the same as if we got the imiev, but with the added advantage of longer range if we need it.

That said, we like the Prius in EV mode so much we think blow it, we are going to buy the imiev anyway, and use the Prius for the long runs, until we get a set of fast chargers and can go to the Sheffield base, which will be solar powered..

Most likely using Nupower.co.nz batteries used to be caused Earthling.co.nz I think.


Anyway, I think the Auckland one would be ok, if you haggle a bit on pricing, and do a range test on flat ground you should get 100 Km or in Auckland I would expect about 80 Km on the many hills there.

I was told the battery has a 8 year warranty , the rest of the car a 10 year warranty, with no guarantee on the battery bar they will replace faulty battery parts, if it drops under 70 % capacity in 8 years or 100, 000 kms, so I think you should be ok, My friend with his Prius has had the car for 10 years plus, and no problems with the battery. Note the Prius is using Nickel Cadium I think compared to Lithium ion for the iMiEV.

I am happy to ring you on a landline and talk through what I know, little that it is, if you want to give me a PM to arrange a time.

 

[WyVern]

I bought a "new" 2012 model from Maroochydoore, north of Brisbane for under AU$24k at the end of May.
I'm unsure of vehicle price difference between here and NZ but I'd be hanging out for them to drop the price significantly.

Can heartily recommend the car though, they are so much fun to own.

 

[Don]

I don't understand why the remaining 8 year factory battery warranty wouldn't be transferrable to you? It would be here

The warranty doesn't do much of anything for loss of range as the battery pack ages, but there have been at least two reported pack failures that I know of which required the entire pack to be replaced and the warranty did cover both of those

Failures of this sort seem to be pretty rare, but still, without ANY warranty, you are taking about a $15K gamble that your car won't eventually be one of them and that would weigh very heavily against such a purchase, at least for me

Finance rates in NZ sure seem to be lots more expensive than they are here. We can still get rates of about 2% on ANY new car (with ZERO percent deals offered for many models) as well as 3% to 3.5% or so on most used cars. Paying 11% to finance any car here would pretty much dry up most car sales I suspect - That's a HUGE hit on a $30K purchase!!

Don

 

[jray3]

Not to salt your wound Leslie, but since it's relevant to the thread, my first i has been marked down by the dealer to $13,698 USD
http://tinyurl.com/m3tpooh

 

[aarond12]

Wow! Only $13K?! I hope there are used i-MiEVs available at this price or lower at the end of my lease. The buyout price on my lease is WAY too high. I would LOVE to return my lease and somehow re-buy it at the lower price.

 

[lesliev]

Thanks for the replies everyone, some great advice there. I'll definitely be asking for a battery test, or test it myself.
I'll ask about the warranty and see if it can be prorated, that could significantly affect the risk.

I have a friend selling a much cheaper petrol car, a 1998 Volvo S70 for $3600 nzd - so I decided to add up the numbers. The Volvo starts out much cheaper but after 9 years of paying for petrol it comes to $45k vs $46.8k (nzd). I've not accounted for services or any rises in petrol or electricity price - I assume petrol price rises much faster than electricity.

After 10 years, $45.6k vs $51.6k for the Volvo. That's about as far as I think I could push that battery and I'd expect the Volvo to be coming to the end of its life by then. I'm sure services would also add in many dollars, particularly towards the end.

So even though this car is expensive, if the battery could hold out for 10 years it would not likely be more expensive than the Volvo. Can anyone tell me how often services are needed for the i-Miev and what they typically cost? I've heard that there's little maintenance on an EV.

I could also do both: buy the Volvo (or some other car) now and wait a few years for EV's to become cheaper.

 

[iMiEVNZ7]

I'd buy the $37,000 one if you can get it for a cheaper rate, say adding it to a home loan. If you redo the figures, it will come out cheaper than running the Petrol care. Plus if you can go in with a pre-arranged loan, you might be able to get it even cheaper at a cash price.

 

[JoeS]

Can anyone tell me how often services are needed for the i-Miev and what they typically cost? I've heard that there's little maintenance on an EV.

lesliev, your question prompted me to look at the Warranty and Maintenance Manual. The only maintenance required is the usual checking of fluids and simply looking around to see if anything is amiss in the area of the brakes, hoses, shaft boots, suspension, and steering. Really mundane stuff you can easily do yourself in just a few minutes. Replacement of the cabin air filter is every 15Kmiles (24,000km) - a two-minute jub - and brake fluid replacement every three years, and I suspect the brakes won't need to be touched for ten years. Probably the only 'maintenance' cost item will be the tires.The iMiEV is about as close to maintenance-free as one can get! Do remember to check the tire pressure fairly often - my tires uniformly lose about 5psi/month (alloy rims?).

 

[lesliev]

I'm going to go with the Volvo. I'll keep an eye out and upgrade to an EV when it becomes a little less risky. Thanks so much for all the help and advice everyone!

 

[offgridQLD]

First post and I had a very similar question to the original one asked in this thread so I have tacked mine on the end.

I have been seriously considering purchasing a I-miev as locally (Australia) the price has dropped dramatically. 2010 models very low km around now $19,000 and new models for around $25,000 (under 1/2 what they were in 2010. So replacing our family sedan that consumes 10lt of fuel for every 100km at $1.60lt the numbers actually work out well on the Imiev over10 years ownership it pays for its self and any interest lost on the $20,000 cash take from the bank.

We have a near new diesel utility that we will keep for long trips and towing.My situation is a little different as we live between two homes . One in the city during the week and the 2nd is completely off grid all 240v power provided by solar. With 9kw of solar panels charging 60kw of battery's feeding a 6kw continuous inverter. living in sunny QLD Australia we have enough energy remaining to charge the 16kwh i-miev battery and cover the energy the house and workshop need. So our electricity to recharge a I-Miev would be free thanks to the sun .

Our city house during the week has smaller grid feed solar system charging there works out ok to.

My main concern with buying the I-miev is will it have the range to drive once a week from the city house to our off grid house at 104km total distance its on the cuff? .

Below is a breakdown of the 104km trip. My wife noted the terrain and speed driving home last Sunday as I know this plays a big part in achievable range. So its the revers conditions driving up there from the city.

Starting from offgrid house in the hinterland

5km undulating 50kmph max speed

15km undulating 65 kmph max speed

4.5km downhill very steep 12% descent (in reverse this is a uphill climb getting up the range to the hinterland 500m altitude climb) will be great regen on way home

1.5km at 50 kmph max speed flat

20km at 80 kmph max speed flat

40km at 100 kmph max speed flat (motorway)

20 km at 60 kmph max speed flat

Total distance 104km

This 104km drive is the longest trip I would want to cover and will do this trip once a week for the next few years until we move up there full time . I'm resonable sure the I miev would make it home fine as you come down the hinterland range and regen would help. doing the trip from the city though I would need to go up the range after traveling 80km. All other trips during the week will be short sub 25km trips in 50 - 80kmh zones so I have no concern with them it will be ideal for them.

Thanks

Kurt.

 

[MLucas]

I like the solar and off-grid.

100km is the advertised range (62 miles). Making it to 104 won't be much of a problem but you may arrive with very little energy left depending HVAC use. Do you have to worry about any low temps? I'm thinking not, but I don't know you area either. That is the biggest problem to making the range, is if you go below 0c. If not then you have nothing to worry about.

Another question, is their any opportunity to charge up while enroute to your country house? That will give you a bit of a cushion.

 

[sandange]

You might try and find a mid way EV friendly stop, where you could get a 1 hour charge break, and a snack or a meal. Have you tried looking into Plugshare.com or a similar site for your area

 

[JoeS]

Kurt, welcome to the forum! It's great that we've had recent participation from Australia, and Queensland's climate is certainly EV-friendly.

The very fact that you've mapped out your route so carefully means you will certainly be tuned in to your consumption. Your biggest issue will be the 500m climb UP to your country home, as the downhill return trip will be quite easy and you can always slow down a bit on that 40km stretch on the motorway (and follow a truck if needbe). Once out of the hills, speed is by far the greatest range killer.

I agree with both MLucas and sandange regarding an intermediate recharge, and that for your first trip you might suss out a spot (restaurant? friend?) where you can plug in for an hour or so just to give yourself a bit of a margin. Once you're used to it, I think your back-and-forth trip will be ok without stopping.

Another idea: perhaps carry a portable genset with you on your first trip - but be sure to try it out first to make sure it's compatible with the iMiEV charger.

With your solar easily able to recharge the iMiEV and thus a zero 'fuel' cost, I would certainly go for it!

 

[jray3]

Kurt, I think you'll have no trouble with the trip to the city, and since most of the trip is at low speed, (but just 100 kmph on the motorway- won't you get overtaken by Toecutter and his gang?) :twisted: you should easily exceed 104 kM of range on that leg. However, given the steep climb at the end of your trip to the country house (btw, you're not special, it seems that most EV enthusiasts live on top of a hill!), I'd plan on a dinner stop with access to charging. Since the standard AS-3112 outlet is 240V but limited to 10 Amps, you'd be best off with a portable EVSE to match- putting 2.4 kW into the car. That should allow range recovery of at least 13 km per hour that you're connected, compared to 0.9 kW, which returns about 5 km of range in an hour with the stock charging unit that we get in the USA and Canada....