Help me buy an iMiev

[Heynow999]

I have looked at a Leaf and the iMiev. I prefer the iMiev for a whole bunch of small reasons, the main one being it is cheaper so I can afford it!
My problem is that here in Ontario, Canada, Mitsubishi will not lease the iMiev. I can only finance it or pay cash. If I were planning on owning it for a long time this would not be a problem, but I believe that EV's are going to improve dramatically in the next few years and these first generation cars are going to look like model T's very quickly. I believe there will be much needed improvements in range. But I do want to drive an EV for all the reasons everyone else here has, I just don't want to take a huge hit on the depreciation. At least with a lease I know exactly what to expect at the end and my losses are know. If I finance with the intention of selling or trading it in 3 years from now, I will surely be underwater on my finacing.

I may buy a Leaf because I can lease it, but would prefer an iMiev.

Thanks

Peter

 

[jennrod12]

Hi Peter,

I had the same idea as you, and I looked into leasing a Leaf. But with a 4-year, 12,000 miles per year lease on the Leaf with $2k down, the cost was the same as buying the i-MiEV outright. I looked at a 4-year lease because you get more for your money (because most depreciation is up front, so the longer you go out the cheaper it is per month).

I also looked at the new cars that have been announced. Other than the Tesla, which I certainly can't afford, the new models already announced would not meet my needs any better than the i-MiEV. Therefore, I could not be certain that something dramatically better would be available at the end of 4 years - more likely, after 4 years, there would be something even better on the horizon, still a couple of years out. But my lease would be ending and to continue driving electric I would need to either purchase my now much-depreciated Leaf or start over again with another new car - this could get expensive! I cannot afford to get into a new car every 3-4 years.

Therefore, I decided that what made the most economic sense was to get in as cheaply as possible with the i-MiEV, and just keep driving it until something comes along that really adds additional value for me (in my case, upgrading mileage from 62 EPA-rated range to 100 EPA-rated range is not enough, I will not get significant additional use out of a car until the range hits 200 miles at the least, due to the distance to my in-laws).

And if something better does come along, I will also have the choice to keep driving my i-MiEV and wait a couple of years to pick it up on the used market from someone who dumps it to buy the even more better thing a couple of years later.

I have a hunch I will still be driving my i-MiEV 10 years from now - we'll see....

Jenn

 

[danpatgal]

(in my case, upgrading mileage from 62 EPA-rated range to 100 EPA-rated range is not enough, I will not get significant additional use out of a car until the range hits 200 miles at the least, due to the distance to my in-laws).

I agree ... I think a 60 mile range has to be improved a lot before an EV can replace a hybrid or longer range vehicle. I know a guy who has a Tesla Roadster, and even a 150 mile round trip was a "stretch" because he was on the highway a lot and didn't want to stress the batteries.

Of course, if there are more regular and quick charge stations installed, effective range will start to become important too. That might be the thing to consider (and why I wanted the QC on the i I ordered). A faster charger will make longer trips possible.

 

[JoeS]

Heynow999, you didn't mention what your primary use for the iMiEV will be, nor whether you have a second vehicle for longer trips. In your neck of the woods, reduced range in winter may also be a consideration.

For us, the iMiEV fits our intermediate-range needs that accounts for most of our daily driving, with a very-efficient hybrid (Gen1 Insight) for longer trips. My other EVs fill the short-range drive needs, although a bicycle is a helluva-lot healthier if time allows. With solar, our "fuel" cost is essentially zero, as the cost/amortization of the solar panels comes from a different pocket.

Just as there will be a better computer, a better phone, a better TV, etc., there will (hopefully) be better and longer-range EVs in the not-too-distant future. High price for a not-fully-refined product is the penalty of being an early adopter, although I'm happy to see that both the Leaf and the iMiEV are very nice already. The iMiEV is available NOW, and we're happily putting on the miles (1500mi in six weeks) while everyone (except my Leaf buddies) around us grouses over the $4.50/gallon gas prices. Besides, it's one less polluting ICE car on the road. Once the manufacturers get the price of batteries down, EVs may well become cheaper than ICEs because they're simpler.

What drove me into buying the iMiEV now and not waiting any longer -

1. I'm getting old and tired of chasing that carrot that's been dangling in front of me for years. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush...

2. My wife and I both like small cars. The Leaf I consider a large vehicle, as is the Tesla S and Coda. Both Honda (FitEV) and Toyota (Scion iQEV) had announced they would only be leasing the few they produce for the California market, and a bicycle doesn't even fit in the back of the iQ nor SmartED nor Wheego nor Think nor... if it weren't for the inside-bicycle storage requirement, we could probably broaden our horizon and maybe consider one of those (if we could get one). In the back of my mind was also the fear that the iMiEV might grow in size even more than it has already (witness the now-bloated Fit).

3. Unlike most people, I've never considered depreciation for anything I've ever purchased (um, the 1967 Saab was one of the very few vehicles I purchased new in my life (for around $2K) and is still running and is worth... who cares?), as I always bought expecting to keep forever. If you expect to turn over your iMiEV within five years then, yes, I suspect that will be a significant depreciation hit - but which you could probably rationalize using fuel and maintenance cost savings (do the math).. I personally never understood the math of leasing unless you were a business, and I recall being furious with GM over the EV-1 when it first came out and I couldn't buy it.

4. At this point in my life I have too many varied interests that preclude me from undertaking a conversion (I had been saving a few lightweight aerodynamic Saab Sonetts for years hoping to convert them with a good ac drivetrain and Lithiums).

If you want to save money, then simply keep driving your old clunker... then, when you get old and retired and have saved up the money you didn't spend on new cars throughout your life (do the math) then you can buy the latest whiz-bang relatively painlessly. My wife's '83 Toyota Corolla wagon with only 300Kmiles was her ultra-reliable intermediate-range daily-driver until I got her the iMiEV. Apologies for the philosophizing, but I endured a lifetime of derision at work for driving old (and small) clunkers. :roll:

In the meantime, we absolutely love our iMiEV and haven't found any significant drawbacks to it, recognizing its range constraint which we understood fully before we bought.

Edited 3/25, elaborated item (3) and added item (4).

 

[Heynow999]

Thanks for the replies

Right now I have a work truck and a 1985 Mercedes diesel for my wife. She does not work or drive far, just takes the kids to school and shopping. The iMiev would be for her, but I would try to use it when possible. The kids can walk to school if neccesary. I am a contractor, so I need the truck a lot, but could use the iMiev for meetings and such. It really would be a good fit for us.

Like many people who drive EV's , we have solar panels on our house and another building we own. We have a feed-in-tariff here in Ontario so all the electricity gets sold to the local utility, but the reality is that we produce much more electicty than we use.

I think I will just have to accept the fact that any new car will depreciate.

 

[JoeS]

Heynow999 - Pickup trucks were meant for contractors - happy to see yours doing real work! You probably will want to keep your MBZ diesel for longer family trips, but you may end up with the same problem I have: because almost all of our driving is in EVs, my ICE vehicles sit unused for so long that their fuel is getting stale... :roll:

Good for you having solar - all the more painless going with an EV! How many kids do you have? If three, then you may be forced into the Leaf to keep the family together.

If you get the iMiEV you can forget about driving it yourself - your wife will glom onto it and you'll never see it again! :lol:

 

[freddotu]

This may be the best thread in which to post this question.

We've been "electric" for a number of years, first with a Xebra, followed by my wife's primary drive, a 2003 Rav4EV and recently supplemented with a Gizmo three-wheeler, also 2003. The Xebra is possibly beating about in the wilds of Alabama, but I don't need to know.

I'm considering an i for the same reasons that many have posted here. Small is good in my alleged mind, the range is not an issue, charging is not a problem, either 220v or 110v and it is rather unique looking. Not near as ugly as the Xebra, nor as one-off as the Gizmo and not at all as invisible as the Rav4EV.

The options for a new EV, although substantially improved when compared to a decade ago, are yet quite limited. The Leaf doesn't fit right to me, and I'd be the primary driver of whichever vehicle we choose. I haven't seen any resolution to the loss-of-range problem due to hot climates and we live in Florida. I understand that it may be caused by deep discharge and repeated full recharges in high temperatures. We've learned from our Rav4EV experiences to avoid both extremes of energy management during high temps, but the price is not attractive either.

The i looks to be a good solution to us.

Are there technical considerations that some of you would consider to be an appropriately negative reference? I have all the reasons I want one, but when I'm approaching a big purchase like this, I want to know why I don't want to buy a Mitsubishi i-Miev. That way, I can look at each negative and tell myself, "Self, this is a non-event for me" and not worry about it. A simplistic example would be to say that the i has very limited range. That's a non-event for me. I can charge at my clients scattered all over my driving area and there are already a couple of J-1772 stations for which I have the magic card.

Can this group provide more negative points for me to reject before I visit the dealership?

thanks

fred
florida

 

[sandange]

Upgrade the anemic portable charger they supply you with and
Hope enjoy the purchasing experience at the dealership

 

[Don]

Can this group provide more negative points for me to reject before I visit the dealership?

Short answer - I can't think of anything significant

When we decided to buy the car, I was a bit sceptical too, thinking that over time I might eventually decide this was 'an expensive learning experience' but after 3 months and more than 3,000 miles I have to admit it's turned out to be a great decision all around - We were happy with it the day we bought it, but we're even more pleased now than we were then

My original worry was about the lifespan of the battery, living here in the deep south and the added range limitations of running the A/C all the time, but neither of those appears to be an issue for us so far - Like you, we're taking better care of the battery by trying to keep it's SOC between 30% and 80% as much as possible, and it turns out that even using the A/C as much as we do, our daily range is still above 60 miles and we almost never need more than 30 or 40 on any given day

Sure, there are half a dozen little things about the car that I wish they had done differently, but to be honest, I'm at least twice as pleased with the car as I would have guessed before we bought it

Don

 

[freddotu]

That's an encouraging answer indeed. The "little things" exist for everyone, I think, as no one vehicle is perfectly suited, but by definition, little things are not show-stoppers. Big things, such as losing range due to hot overcharging, on the other hand should be in the forefront.

Is there a thread here that references charging procedures? The Rav4EV has a charge timer that allows for shore power to be used to pre-condition the vehicle, and users have discovered that using that timer can prevent a 100% charge sequence from taking place. I understand that the Leaf by default charges only to 80%, which implies that the hot charge problem is due to operator override. My Gizmo is running on LiFePO4, which will not tolerate an overcharge. My charger is programmed to limit top-end voltage, and as long as I'm diligent, the pack will suffer no harm.

Does the i have built-in top-off prevention with user override or some other way to prevent repeated battery cooking?

 

[Don]

I don't think anyone really knows what Mitsu is doing as to charging this car, Fred. We assume it's really conservative or they couldn't be offering an 8 year, 100K warranty on the battery

The car comes with a remote control key fob which can be used to precondition the car and it can also be programmed to begin charging at a specified hour (for those who have 'time of use' power rates) - It can also be used to charge for any specific number of hours, but you would need to decide how much time it would take to reach the state of charge you're looking for . . . . it's by no means 'automatic'. Various members here are using several other methods to limit charging to less than a full charge, but I think the opinion is that full charging it most of the time probably isn't very harmful

When full charging, the car quits charging early and the BMS checks the battery and then resumes a slower, tapered finishing charge right at the end. As evidenced by the many little things they carried over from ICE cars, it's pretty obvious that their intended customer isn't a tech savvy EV enthusiast, but average ordinary people who don't know SOC from tire pressure (they gave us standard TPMS for those who don't even know tire pressure!) so to ensure that sort of customer doesn't destroy the battery, they must have pretty high confidence in whatever charging program they have built into the car. I no longer consider battery life to be a big issue . . . . but like you, I'm still taking other steps to try to ensure my car's battery will last a long, long time

Don

 

[nt2w]

Hi, Fred, and a big hearty welcome to another former Xebra driver! When I saw your post, I got a big smile and definitely would like to help you buy an i- your expertise on the Xebra group was great, it would be super to have you join the i-MiEV community.

I've written an article on the experience after 1000 miles of driving the i, yet to be published, but I'll share my "dislikes" (in no particular order) from the article in abbreviated form here.

1. The name. Unpronounceable and meaningless, reflective of a poor US marketing effort that's hurting sales and ultimately the growth of this community. That sounds harsher than I intend, but it really bugs me.

2. Downright cheap look of the interior. This is a $30,000 car, and shouldn't look like a $12,000 car. The Leaf is an Infiniti by comparison. Spartan is OK, poor fitting plastic is not. Although, admittedly, the i is a Mercedes compared to the Xebra!

3. The remote control, which is necessary to allow timed charging and pre-conditioning (heat or A/C). I'm still trying to figure out the dance necessary to get the car to do what I want it to- there are a couple threads documenting the frustration of having to send, send and send again to get the right combination of charging time and/or pre-conditioning. It should just work, period, without any fuss.

4. Lack of cruise control and tilt steering wheel. See (2) above.

5. No spare tire. In part because of cost and weight, but also in part due to the fact the front and rear wheels are different sizes, another annoyance (can't rotate tires).

6. Multifunction range remaining/odometer/tripmeters/thermometer is annoying- range meter should be a separate gauge.

7. Maintenance under front hood (relay/fuses, headlamps) looks to be a challenge due to cramped space.

8. Suspension and handling are marginal, fine for city streets but pitchy on rural roads. Don't try any twisties.

9. Mitsubishi's "partners" for the "required" home assessment and EVSE leave much to be desired, detracting from the buying experience for me.

Lots of positives as well, but you didn't ask for those...

Cheers-

Rich

 

[Don]

The i (Eye) was a Japanese model before it became an EV. The MiEV is pronounced just like it's spelled - My EV. At least it's not a Tiguan, or a Routan, or a Touareg, or a Passat, or a . . . . My EV makes lots more sense to me

I think for another $3K or so, most all of your other complaints could have been recitified - True, it's a 30K car but with half of that hidden in the technology, it's basically a $15K around town econobox and it's a hard enough sell at $30K without adding $$$ to spruce up the interior and give it a tilt wheel. I guess they had to draw the line somewhere - If it was $33K more buyers would have bought a Leaf for the extra range and the 5 passenger capacity and the i might have been next to unsellable. I would have waited another couple years and got something else if this car was $33K - Thankfully, the nav package was optional or we wouldn't have bought it for sure

Don

 

[nt2w]

That's a pronunciation I hadn't heard during my purchase experience. One of the dealer staff even called it the "iCar," which made me wonder if it came from Cupertino!

Model naming is a shaky art at best and there are loads of stories of names that don't translate to other markets etc, from the humorous to downright tragic.

I agree that my wishlist would likely make the car unsellable given pricing realities. In my review article I was right in line with your thoughts- the ES model, despite its econobox trappings, is a good value if you're one of us who are willing to pay the premium for an EV. The SE, on the other hand, especially with the GPS nav system, is a hard sell vs. the base Leaf at a comparable price.

 

[freddotu]

Rich, I have not yet taken a test drive and the last time I was on the dealer's lot looking at the cars parked in the back corner, none of the sales crew cared to brave the heat to try to make a sale. I was traveling via velomobile, dressed in cyclists' lycra, which may have been a factor. It's the first time I've been on a car lot and not been attacked/approached by sales.

I didn't notice that the wheels were two different sizes. Realistically, I've not had a puncture in a motor vehicle tire for more than a decade. I suppose a can of tire sealant and inflator is called for. Because no sales crew appeared, I was also not able to examine very clearly the interior. After owning a Xebra, any production vehicle is likely to be luxurious. The gizmo is more of an outdoorsy sort of vehicle, so there's no pretense of comfort there.

I'll search the threads for references to the remote control. How peculiar that there would be a remote control without manual backup on some interior control panel. At least one does not have to submit to the power of the i-device and have to have an iPad, iPod or iPhone to accomplish desired results.

The battery warranty is astonishing, unless the company goes under before the warranty expires.

So far nothing is a sales-breaker for me. That's good, of course, it means the vehicle is worth purchasing. I had hoped to put off a purchase until near the end of the year, hoping to find hungrier dealers. My Gizmo must be reading the internet, as it suffered a controller fault of some sort, stranding me 15 miles from home. Perhaps punishment for thinking of replacing it.

 

[jray3]

Heynow and Fredd, I think you'd both be pleasantly surprised by a coupla things. First, if the pickup's broke and you take the MiEV to a jobsite, when the guys start laughing you can easily climb over a standard 8" concrete curb and gutter to chase 'em down due to the car's high stance (and it fits on the sidewalk). Secondly, that 50 cubic foot flat floor in the rear comes in mighty handy. The 'cheap, hard plastic interior' is much more scratch-resistant and tolerant of heavy use than many fancier cars, and easy to clean.

When the wife unit can get into a preheated, silent vehicle on a Canadian winter morning and not have to warm up the old diesel- I'd wager there will be benefits.

On battery charging, our community's various methods of measurement indicate that there's either some headroom built into the 16 kwh rating, or the 100% charge really ain't so. That plus the air-conditioned pack gives me more confidence in our packs' lifespan than the LEAF. Though an automatic 80% charge option would be nice.

 

[freddotu]

What is the situation with cup holders?

The Rav4EV has a miserable arrangement, while the miserable Xebra had a great one, perhaps the best part of that miserable vehicle. The Gizmo has a boat-gymbal cup holder I installed by bolting it to the interior panel.

Cup holders are a deal breaker if not done right.

I learned something new in this last message. Air-conditioned battery pack? Does that mean a coolant-based device forces cool air through the pack as needed to keep temps in check?

Just kidding about the cup holders being a deal breaker.

 

[nt2w]

What is the situation with cup holders?

Cup holders are a deal breaker if not done right.
.

Funny you should mention it- the i has the oddest cup holders I've ever seen. They fold out of the dash in front of the side air vents, blocking them if your drink is bigger than an 8oz coffee. The cup holder base is square, not round, so it would hold (haven't tested it yet) a old-school 1/2 pint milk carton as well as a coffee or Coke.

Rich

 

[nt2w]

My Gizmo must be reading the internet, as it suffered a controller fault of some sort, stranding me 15 miles from home. Perhaps punishment for thinking of replacing it.

Hmm. Eerily similar to my Xebra having a controller failure the same day I scheduled a test drive of the i-MiEV and a Leaf.

EV jealousy? :?

 

[MLucas]

What is the situation with cup holders?

Actually, I find the cupholders by the vents quite ingenious and they do work really well. On hot days, they keep a cold drink cool and on cold days they keep a warm drink warm.

If that doesn't satisfy you then there is a big honking cup holder on the center console.