What EV would you buy or lease if you were buying today?

[acensor]

In an other thread i wrote...
"...I hate to admit it, but in ONE sense at least it has proven rather expensive to operate:
As a buyer rather than leaser, I like other buyers , have taken a huge hit on depreciation."

I've seen 2012 MiEVs about same age, milage, condition as mine i got in April 2013, that have come off lease selling for about $9000....and I'm into mine for about $18,000 evrn after my tax credit.

Don't get me wrong...
I love our MiEV. Although with hindsight I think I would have leased rather than purchased. Or with true psychic future sight maybe even have waited 2-3 years.

Hindsight is 2020, and in a sense moot...but it is interesting and can be useful in going forward.
So today if someone admires my car and expresses serious interest in getting into a new EV I generally recommend they look at the Chevy Spark and that they lease it.

I do NOT send them go hunt for a new MiEV. (I do suggest they might want to hunt for a used MiEV at a bargain price less than 10,000.)

I've driven a Spark EV. (Currently AFAIK still only available in Oregon and California, and selling very well, and unlike the MiEV was, being very aggressively promoted and sold by the Chevy dealership here.)

The spark is noticeably better at acceleration and top speed, has very significantly better range. That in turn means in my usage I would not have to be so hesitant to use the heater. And as far as I can tell the engineering is very well done.
Ironic that the guys who originally killed the electric car, may turn out to be a leader in EVs.

Today if shopping for a new EV, I would lease the spark. Then wait to see what's out there three years from now. Or I might wait for the Chevy Bolt. For the very few of you who don't know already that's "Bolt" not "volt.". The bolt is Chevys new 200 mile EV.

.....
So what might YOU do today if you didn't have your EV? Or if yiu could go back in time to the day you purchased?

What do you tell others who express any semi seroius interest in an EV or plugin hybrid?

 

[Don]

We bought a 3.900 mile lease return 2012 iMiEV SE Premium a few months back for $8,700. I can't think of *any* other EV out there that would be a better deal for us - The 'depreciation hit' was already gone, we got an essentially brand new car for less than 1/3rd of it's sticker price

I've never been tempted to lease any car. If I had a business I could write it off to, that might be different, but for me a lease is the most expensive way to drive - Why? Well, I never buy anything I don't really, really like and then I usually keep it 10 or 12 years. Besides the two iMiEV's, I have a 1994 Miata which I bought used with 11,000 miles on it in 1999. It currently has 60K and I *think* I could probably sell it today for $7,500. Our other car is a 2003 Protégé 5 which is coming up on 75,000 miles. Even if a lease was only $200 a month, I've never paid that much per month to drive anything, nor would I want to

Don

 

[Benjamin Nead]

I suppose there’s a certain advantage to being on the lower rungs of the economic ladder at times. When the first wave of OEM electrics came along in around 2011, I knew I wouldn’t be able to buy a new one. Even new gasoline-powered cars of similar size and aspirations (all typically thousands of dollars less than an electric) were out of my price range. I always have been and probably always will be a used car purchaser and I made a goal then to be in good enough financial shape to purchase a used Leaf or something similar when 1st generation used examples started to become available.

I had debts that I had consolidated to a low interest loan in 2009 and this was also about the same time that the house my wife and I owned, which we had cheerfully borrowed money against during the previous decade in a bullish housing market, began to financially tank after the bubble had burst. We finally sold it via a short sale in early 2013 and moved into a rental property that summer.

Meanwhile, our two cars were starting to show their signs of age. A 2004 Mazda van that we had for about a decade (nominally my wife’s vehicle) was becoming more of a liability than an asset and a 1995 Saturn 4-door (my car,) was also fading fast. In 2014, my wife’s van got replaced with a 2007 Honda FIT and my Saturn became more trouble to repair than it was worth. Even before my Saturn began becoming increasingly less reliable, it was largely replaced by a bicycle for my short work commutes. We reverted back to being a single car household for the first time in almost three decades that year.

It wasn’t all gloom and doom, though. I was increasingly becoming more involved with my local EAA chapter and, through that association, had an opportunity to not only test drive some of these then-new EVs short term, but to have multi-week loans of some (ie: fellow club members going on vacation and witnessing them loan out their cars to other club members during that period.) So, for two weeks at a time over three successive falls, I got to borrow a Leaf (in 2011,) a Volt (in 2012,) and an i-MiEV (in 2013.)

They’re all very nice vehicles in their own right and I suppose I could live happily with any of them. But the i-MiEV, unexpectedly, became my favorite of the bunch. I liked the fact that it isn’t loaded with gadgets and, despite having the smallest physical footprint, it has the most generous cargo hold with the rear seats folded down. After the large price drop announced for the 2014 model year, it also became the least expensive.

I sold the Saturn for $500 cash (not bad for a car that I drove for almost 2 decades,) which aligned with the time that all my old debts had finally been paid down. By the middle of this past summer, I could finally start appraising the used electric vehicle market and was pleasantly surprised by the prices. New car buyers should know that the worth of their purchases will literally drop in half as soon as they drive them off the dealer’s lot, but many are still surprised by the inevitable financial depreciation. Perhaps it was a still-EV-suspicious public, low gas prices, a glut of 3-year-old first generation OEM EVs coming off lease all at once - or a combination of all of the above - but used Leaf’s and i-MiEVs only seems to be getting cheaper through much of last year.

Recounted in detail elsewhere on this blog, I found my used 2012 via the internet on a southern California dealer lot last fall. A $1000 deposit held it for few weeks before I could travel out there to see it in person. The sales price was just under $7000 and mileage was just shy of 18K. Add another $1000 or so to cover round trip airfare, a night’s lodging, vehicle sales taxes/registration and the flatbed trucking fees to bring it home, I had the car in my driveway a couple days after I signed the papers.

So, what EV would I buy today? And would the choice change if money was also suddenly no object, or at least much more available? Assuming that I wouldn’t suddenly find myself traveling all that much more if I was instantly richer, I’d still pick the i-MiEV and still buy used. For the sort of money that I would pay for an upper trim level Tesla S, for instance, I could buy a decent plot of land locally and pay for most of the construction costs of a nice medium-sized Net-Zero house with a significant amount of solar PV. I might even have enough money left over for a large garage, with more PV panels on the roof and a couple extra used i-MiEVs inside (parts vehicles for the main ride.)

 

[jray3]

A used i at $6500 is the best bang for the buck, though used LEAFs are also dropping like a rock.
A used compliance car purchase is for the brave (esp outside of those states) or an enthusiast/collector.

The $199 leases so many rave about can be good deals for low mileage drivers (10-12 k/yr), but get expensive if you're gonna go 19k/year.
Business purchases of a new EV can go quite well. I took the $7500 credit on two i-MiEV, making the first year of operation cash-flow positive for each of them, and at Federal rates, business miles on any EV are profitable.
If I wanted a comfy commuter, I'd find a 2011 LEAF with the original battery and bargain that down.

Sure, for an early buyer at about $22k net, it would take about 44,000 business miles to pay off the car ($0.50/mile after buying electrons and tires). That's plenty possible, and about half the time it would take to pay off a business gasser.

If I wanted a new EV today, it'd be between the SOUL and LEAF. The base SOUL EV is very nicely appointed for a hair under $35k; a much better buy than the first i-MiEV and LEAF.
Road Tripper? VOLT (while wishing the Fusion PHEV had a trunk)

 

[JoeS]

During my entire life almost all of my vehicle purchases were used cars. I simply refused to take the depreciation hit. Leasing never made much fiscal sense to me, and in most cases I not only recouped my used car price but made money on them. Over 50 years of buying efficient small used cars has saved me an incredible amount of money!

In the 2007-2011 timeframe my wife and I drove a couple of Corbin Sparrow BEVs (bought used) as our daily drivers. With a range of 20-35 miles, they worked for most local trips, and were augmented by a couple of Gen1 Honda Insights for longer trips or my wife's '83 Toyota Corolla wagon for hauling 'stuff'. The venerable Isuzu Trooper was (and still is) reserved for towing the big trimaran.

During this time I waited patiently for BEVs to develop. When the Leaf came out, and even though I talked a number of friends into getting them, I didn't particularly care for it (too 'stodgy') and was holding out for either the Honda Fit BEV or Toyota Scion iQ BEV. The Mitsubishi i-MiEV wasn't even on my radar. Sadly, the Aptera development was grossly mismanaged by some Detroit weenies the company hired and Aptera folded as, by far, that would have been my vehicle of choice.

In November 2011 at the SF Car Show when it became clear that the iQ EV would not be available to the general public and that Honda would only be leasing the Fit EV, I became enamored with the i-MiEV. After a brief test drive during which my primary purpose was to explore its regen control (MUCH better than the Leaf) I placed an order for one. After many weeks of delays and negligible feedback from Mitsubishi, in February 2012 I went to the local dealer and haggled for seven hours for the SE they had on the showroom floor - recognizing that, as an early adopter, I would undoubtedly take a bath. At that point in time there simply were no used production BEVs on the market - the RAV4EV being too expensive.

I continued driving the Sparrows while my wife glommed onto the i-MiEV - she absolutely loves it!

Needless to say, I've never looked back and in the last year or so have managed to pick up two additional used SE Premiums at bargain prices. The Sparrows are gathering dust...

I've kept my finger on the pulse of the ever-evolving BEV world (would not consider a PHEV) and, to this day, by far, my vehicle of choice is a used Mitsubishi i-MiEV with CHAdeMO. Sure, if some of the other used BEVs were the same price as the i-MiEV (e.g., Kia Soul EV) I'd go for one of them, but the question on the table is what EV would I buy today knowing what I now know. Why spend $20K-$40K over $6K-$7K for a daily driver?

Range I believe to be a red herring, with Tesla pandering to an innumerate populace. That said, for long-distance travel, if only used Teslas with Autopilot would drop in price... :roll:

PS acensor: the SparkEV, with its back seat down, has a hump back there and has a cargo volume of less than half of our i-MiEV (23.4cuft vs 50.4cuft)

PPS We have a thread (which needs to be updated) with some of our thoughts about other EVs:
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=922
Also, in the Other Vehicles forum there are a number of topics similar to this one.

Edit: added link and some minor clarifications.

 

[PV1]

My only regret with the i-MiEV is not doing it sooner. I was driving a gasser when the i-MiEV would've saved me a fortune (nearly my entire paycheck going into the gas tank. i-MiEV payments were cheaper).

Knowing what I know now, I would still go for the i-MiEV. True, the Volt would've saved me hassle and time a few times, but it wouldn't have been worth hauling around a 4 cylinder all the time. I don't really care about the depreciation hit, I plan to keep at least one i-MiEV for a long time. The depreciation allowed me to pick up a second i-MiEV for others to drive, and as backup when Bear is at the dealer or a show.

 

[acensor]

Okay, I guess most of us could agree that picking up a used MiEV is by far the best deal out there. And a very reasonable recommendation to make two friends hunting for an EV. Great car, which we understand, with a lot going for it. Surely for better option for someone looking at a new EV Smart car.

But what about someone who is dead set on buying a new car? Or someone who the range of the MiEV is just too small for their use? What might you recommend ....

OR if you HAD to buy a newEV or plug-in hybrid today what would you buy .... or lease? Or would you wait?

BTW..... I am not a lease type person. This is the only scenario where I believe lease is favorable because it protects you in several ways ,including can bailout at the end of three years at which time the whole marketing technology could be significantly more favorable on EVs. Exception may be if you,d put on excessive miles and get hit with big charge at end.

BTW..
Does anyone know how insurance works when you at least card? That is if you get rear-ended in the insurance company totals for the car and decides it's only worth $6000, is it you that's left with the ugly loss, or the leasing company?

My personal answer to my questions is I'd lease a Spark for about $135 per month.

 

[JoeS]

My only regret with the i-MiEV is not doing it sooner...

Ah, but you were interested and really did your homework ahead of time!

The depreciation allowed me to pick up a second i-MiEV for others to drive, and as backup when Bear is at the dealer or a show.

... or, as has happened to us a number of times -

1. An unexpected need arises whereby one has to take off very soon after coming back home with just a couple of bars remaining
2. Pre-planning that one of us needs to make another long trip soon after arriving home and sets the charging timer of the 'spare' i-MiEV to have a full tank and be ready to go. I normally keep our 'standby' i-MiEV at six bars. All sorts of uses for the third i-MiEV ... oops, spare battery that just happens to have a car around it. :roll:

 

[JoeS]

.... I am not a lease type person....My personal answer to my questions is I'd lease a Spark for about $135 per month.

Sorry, Alex, I don't get it: $135*12*3=$4860 + what up front and lease termination costs? ... and nothing to show for it at the end for what I believe to be a less-useful daily driver than the i-MiEV? vs. a used $6500 i-MiEV. In your everyday driving situation, what would you do with the additional 20 miles of range, especially with all those DCQC in Oregon?

But what about someone who is dead set on buying a new car?

Can't argue with emotion vs. logic.

 

[acensor]

Sorry, Alex, I don't get it: $135*12*3=$4860 + what up front and lease termination costs? ... and nothing to show for it at the end for what I believe to be a less-useful daily driver than the i-MiEV? vs. a used $6500 i-MiEV. In your everyday driving situation, what would you do with the additional 20 miles of range, especially with all those DCQC in Oregon?

Hi Joe!
Well, sure...as I conceded $6500 (or even $9000) to outright own a three year old decent MIEV would be at the top of a short list for a recommendation to a friend not rolling in cash and eyeing EV's.
I HAVE made that recommendation to some.

But, I was answering my own hypothetical question of "what if somehow you HAD to buy a a new EV today?" ...in that scenario a used MiEV wouldn't be there as an alternative.
(Oh, say, none available less than 2500 miles miles away. Or don't trust that the battery pack hasn't be abused by the lessor. One other reason for shying away from a used MIEV might be no dealer service department with even one EV trained mechanic within 500 miles.)

But aside from the imaginary no-used-MIEV option , to answer some of your points....
First off , the last gal I met locally who just leased a Spark got the dealer down to almost nothing on the up front, and for many (like my ~6000 per year miles) little or no close out charge.
Second, the three year old MIEV has no warranty outside power train ...so some risk there.

As for range, the two folks I know a bit with Sparks are getting , as we are, quite a bit more than claimed range ... Approx 30 more miles than the 60-70 I usually count on.
As for what would I do with more kwhrs or 30 more miles: make about 20 trips a year that I currently rule out as at the ragged edge of MIEV range...and more important , very often in winter I (and wife) feel freer to run the heater on trips I currently hesitate to, and run AC with less hesitation in summer.

For someone with, say, a 60 mile round trip work commute and no viable charge at work option the extra 30 miles is a strong draw to a Spark over an MIEV...almost a necessity.

My _personal_ take on charging stations is they border on useless me in my pattern of use:
They are never where I need them, and the charge time wait is ridiculous with no high speed charge port on my MIEV. Even with the Chad port , to me an hour wait for 80% is not very attractive. And no one talks about this: As EVs get more popular, what about the time I'm counting on a charge station and you pulled in and plugged in for an hour charge 5 minutes before I arrived?

See where I'm coming from?

Alex

 

[PV1]

Alex, I'm not sure why you are quoting an hour for an 80% CHAdeMO charge. Even from 2 bars, my i-MiEV gets to 80% in less than 20 minutes. A FULL, 100% recharge on CHAdeMO takes an hour, and one has to unplug and replug to get the last 20% unless you start close to 80% (I once started at 73% and it went straight to full).

When I drive the i-MiEV to Cranberry, I usually stop at the McDonald's and get some food before driving to the quick charger. This way, I have some time to eat, and the timing works out just about perfectly.

That said, if I had to buy a new EV today, I would be limited to the LEAF or a BMW i3. I would probably buy the LEAF because it has CHAdeMO (the i3 has CCS combo, which there are exactly 1 of these units within range), and because the LEAF is much cheaper and now offers more range compared to the i3 with the 30 kWh battery. These are the only other BEVs for sale on my area that are actually sitting on lots. Sure, I might be able to order a new i-MiEV through the dealer, but I don't know.

Ideally, I'd hold off until the bolt and Model 3 are available. Why would I step into a new 100-mile EV when I could get a 200-mile EV for a similar price if I wait?

 

[JoeS]

Alex, thank you for your further elaboration, and I understand the points you've made. If someone is set on a new car and is going to be leasing, then our choices here on the West Coast are a bit better than what PV1 identified out there.

If I were to suggest to an uninitiated EV person about to lease a car today and $$ were secondary, then my choice would be a Kia Soul EV. It gets an honest 100 mile range and has many well-thought-out features. Closely behind would be the 30kWh Leaf. I said 'uninitiated', because some people have neither the patience nor foresight to fully extract the best use out of our 62-mile i-MiEV's range.

I wouldn't consider a Ford product until they get their act together and relocate the battery packs - ridiculous how much valuable storage space the packs consume in both their EV and Energi models.

I don't know if the VW e-Golf is for sale up in your neck of the woods - it's a nice car, but undistinguished. The Smart ED (the dealer in Medford had quite a few on his lot) offers no advantage over the i-MiEV, IMO. I simply don't see $$ value in BMW's i3. If there were no i-MiEV, then the SparkEV would certainly be a contender and preferable over the 500e.

If you're recommending the SparkEV to your acquaintance, then be sure they include the SAE Combo DCQC port. Oregon has a wonderful electric highway!

During a recent 170-mile trip I took in the i-MiEV, I only spent about 15 minutes at each of my CHAdeMO (80%) recharges - barely enough time to go to the bathroom and get a cup of coffee.

 

[pbui19]

Given my 50 miles round-trip, no convenient work charge, and the 2200-ft end of day elevation climb, the i is just working with no margin for mid-day errand, and definitely not workable in the winter. It is still an awesome vehicle to run down the hill for local errands to the market, yoga, hardware stores, etc...

I did purchase the 2016 Volt for the wife, but it has the same 50-EVmile limitation. I just don't like having the engine running just for the last 1-2 mile up the hill. So I find myself trying to get a brief charge mid-day, even just an hour on L1.

I am saving up for either the Bolt or T3. The Bolt may win out as it is scheduled to be available at the end of the year.

However if I find a good deal for an used i, I would not hesitate to purchase. I think the i Li-pack makes a really good home power storage. But the deal has to be comparable to the Power Wall, which is $3.5K/10kwh. So an i of $6K would fit the bill, plus the advantage of being able to drive it, plus BMS, L3 charging etc... It seems that the price break is already available.

 

[oilerlord]

Hi guys,

First post. I've been oscillating from i-MiEV, to Spark EV, then back again. I installed solar on my roof back in August, and I'm looking for a way to use my excess kWh's instead of exporting that power to the grid. I expect that I'll be driving an EV soon.

I think the Spark is definitely more of a "normal" car than an i-MiEV, especially since there are a lot of gas Sparks on the road. The Spark EV has better range, but the overall packaging on the i-MiEV is better with it's rear-wheel drive, bigger cargo area (seats folding flat), and lower weight. For me, the clincher is price. A used, low-mileage 2012 i-MiEV can be had for the price of an average 1100cc motorcycle. Realistically, I can buy a used i-MiEV and drive it for 3 years - and only lose ~$2,000 in depreciation. Factor in not buying gasoline or typical ICEV maintenance - the car has zero operating cost.

 

[acensor]

Hi Oilerlord.

"the clincher is price. A used, low-mileage 2012 i-MiEV can be had for the price of an average 1100cc motorcycle...."

I have to agree... just no way to beat getting a close to new competent sweat EV for under $9K..... as long as the more limited range compared to the Spark or other alternative isn't a showstopper for YOUR pattern of use. Remember....if you run the heater any significant amount it really cuts into ranges. (Airconditioning does so too... but interestingly not nearly as much as comparable heating.)

If the MiEV wasn't such a well-kept secret the market would be driving the price of those off-lease ones well up into the teens.

Alex

 

[JoeS]

… The Spark EV has better range, but the overall packaging on the i-MiEV is better with it's rear-wheel drive, bigger cargo area (seats folding flat), and lower weight. For me, the clincher is price….

Yep, by far, best value for the price, and you get a wonderful workhorse that is large inside and small outside.

…If the MiEV wasn't such a well-kept secret the market would be driving the price of those off-lease ones well up into the teens.

Not quite, as a brand-new i-MiEV can be had for $19,245 here in California which, coupled with a $7,500 federal tax credit plus $2,500 state cash credit, brings that price down to under $10K. Incredible value!
Ref., for example: http://www.sanrafaelmitsubishi.com/vehicle-details/new-2016-mitsubishi-i-miev-es-JA3215H42GU000223

 

[oilerlord]

Hi Oilerlord.

If the MiEV wasn't such a well-kept secret the market would be driving the price of those off-lease ones well up into the teens.

Alex

In all candor, Mitsubishi is a forgotten brand in the US. From peak US sales in 2002 of ~345,000 cars, the company managed just 95,000 last year. Add the generally negative reviews of the i-MiEV to the mix, and lack of dealer support for the car, the giveaway prices for the car are understandable.

It's also an odd, polarizing, jellybean kind of a car. We praise the car's simplicity while others call it cheap. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The biggest problem for me is selling the concept of a tiny & basic EV to my wife - not that the car is for her, only that there will be occasions that she'll need to drive it. My wife has become accustomed to a level of luxury with her cars (she drives a BMW 330). She thought I was nuts when I bought a VW Jetta Sportwagon. By comparison, my VW is a Mercedes S class compared with the Mitsu. If I come home with an i-MiEV, she'll be convinced I'm insane.

I know what you're thinking...simple solution...buy a Tesla. Nope. If I'm spending 80 large, it will be a down payment on another property.

 

[sheinr4143]

Hi Oilerlord,

Why not go all in and take your wife for a test drive in an i3? The screaming drivetrain, sumptuous interior, and refined telematics will win her over and you will have a wicked fun way to expend all of your excess kWh from the solar array!

The ridiculously low acquisition and operating costs for your iMiEV will allow you to splurge on an i3 lease so that you can enjoy the best of both worlds (maximum economy and maximum comfort) in your garage!

 

[pbui19]

have you considered the 2016 Chevy Volt ? more car than an i3 i think, and cheaper. It's also as efficient as the iMiev, surprisingly. How much extra power do you get from your solar PV ? if you are in CA, there is the annual true up when the accumulation is reset. Since we heat (via heat pump) the house with electric now, I am still juggling with "timing" the balance.

 

[oilerlord]

have you considered the 2016 Chevy Volt ? more car than an i3 i think, and cheaper. It's also as efficient as the iMiev, surprisingly. How much extra power do you get from your solar PV ? if you are in CA, there is the annual true up when the accumulation is reset. Since we heat (via heat pump) the house with electric now, I am still juggling with "timing" the balance.

I'm from Alberta, and we don't have any subsidies or tax incentives for EV's. So, I'm shopping for a used EV, that has already had the intrinsic value of the tax rebates and big depreciation hits applied to them. I like the 2016 Volt, but I'd have to wait at least a couple of years for that 50% off price that I'm comfortable with. Let's face it, EV's depreciate big time. I'm not about to buy a $30,000 EV to save a few bucks on gas just to lose thousands of dollars per year in depreciation. That's why a $6,000 i-MiEV appeals to me. By saving ~$50 per tank (compared with ICE), there is an actual foreseeable date that a cheap EV may actually reach a break even point.

Our local power co sadly doesn't bank or credit electricity we export. I get paid (monthly) our base rate of 6.5 cents per kWh for exported kWh's, but when administration, transmission, distribution, local access, etc, fees are added - we pay about 11 cents. For those reasons, I'm I'd rather drive an EV than get paid peanuts from the poco.