Riversimple and Fuel Cell Discussions

[Phximiev]

I agree that the chart is not the best, but I do believe at this point that hydrogen vehicles shouldn't just be written off, which I think is the point of the article.

While hydrogen has a present justification in fleets (including the Riversimple, Aberdeen and some forklift models), I don't believe that it makes sense at this time for personal vehicles, which require re-fueling at the corner "gas" station. It may if a buyer could install a home hydrogen re-fueling station for say under $1,000.00 or so.

If that were the case, the economics of the individual BEV v. individual hydrogen car would appear to change.

I think that another point of the article is that its just too early to rule out alternatives.

 

[phb10186]

Another provocative argument: http://www.riversimple.com/batteries-hydrogen-wrong-question/

:idea:

Provocative perhaps because its misleading? I don't buy this oversimplified chart at all.

Consider the leading long-range EV, a Tesla Model S. Both the S85D and S90D score an even 100 mpge for mixed driving, only 12% worse than the much less capable i-MiEV.

The Model S competition? Well, a Porsche Panamera gets 18 combined mpg and a BMW 750i rates 20 mpg. Where's that decreasing rate of return on long range EVs?

That chart is balderdash. It doest mean anything without the definition of what 'energy efficiency' is. It could be 100% accurate, but without a definition... meaningless. Energy efficiency could be a measure of a million things.

It could even be the energy efficiency to produce an EV vs a BEV... just don't know.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

A large scale hydrogen production and distribution system - is NEVER going to happen. It simply costs WAAAAAY too much, and it would take hundreds of YEARS to build it, even at a rapid pace.

Hydrogen fuel cell cars are about HALF the energy efficiency of electric cars - for the whole energy cycle. Meaning FCEV's are barely more efficient than ICE's.

 

[Phximiev]

Lookin' for money! https://riversimple.sharein.com/invest

Again.

 

[sandange]

All the buzz on Range trying to discredit the viability of BEV's .
Our just over 2 years old our Miev now has 86,038 km ( 53,500 miles aprox)

This chart is missing information & full of one sided views.

Besides the distance in Miles or Kilometers, one key missing element on the chart is the
Human Factor , How many miles or KM can the average human COMFORTABLY travel before wanting to use the facilities, or just want to stretch?

The Ice vehicle adds pushing the range factor should also include free 3 years of adult diapers included along with their free maintenance check ups promotions, LOL
:lol:

 

[PV1]

Besides the distance in Miles or Kilometers, one key missing element on the chart is the
Human Factor , How many miles or KM can the average human COMFORTABLY travel before wanting to use the facilities, or just want to stretch?

The Ice vehicle adds pushing the range factor should also include free 3 years of adult diapers included along with their free maintenance check ups promotions, LOL
:lol:

EXACTLY!! That what annoyed me about Volkswagen's Jetta TDI commercial (before the Diesel scandal). They advertised an 850 mile range per tank. That's 14 hours of driving! Nobody could sit in a car and drive that without stopping. Anymore, spending all day on the road only yields about 140 miles in the i-MiEV or about 250 miles in the hybrid, which could be covered by a single charge on a Model S 90D and be replenished at a Supercharger while eating dinner.

 

[JoeS]

The Riversimple argument of hydrogen vs. BEV provided on their website (including the above chart) left me scratching my head.

http://www.riversimple.com/batteries-hydrogen-wrong-question/

Here's Bossel's paper that they reference:

http://www.industrializedcyclist.com/ulf bossel.pdf

Adding further to my confusion, here's the summary phrase in the title of that paper:

"Electricity obtained from hydrogen fuel cells appears to be four times as expensive as electricity drawn from the electrical transmission grid."

Agree with the above arguments against that dimensionless graph. The other Bossel chart comparing FCEV vs. BEV efficiencies does not include the "AC via Grid" component for the FCEV. Why?

I really like the concept of a small and very aerodynamic car. Aerodynamic drag, rather than vehicle weight, is the primary energy robber once the vehicle gets up to speed.

Riversimple is going down the road of Fuel Cell + Supercapacitors. Sure wish Riversimple would pursue a parallel path of a pure BEV (or BEV + supercapacitors?), as I already have that energy source at home (in my case, for free). I've been successfully weaned off the petrol-station model, thank you.

Since they're weight-obsessed, I wonder how many kWh of lithium batteries they could have onboard for the same weight if they get rid of all the fuel cell hardware?

Bandying about "300 mile range" is pandering to innumerates, but is perhaps necessary not because people need it in their daily driving but because they need to drive that long due to the paucity of refueling stations.

As a generalization, I am still befuddled as to why major manufacturers such as Honda and Toyota have been and appear to continue to be seriously pursuing FCEVs.

 

[PV1]

They could likely achieve an easy 250 mile range from lithium. Super capacitors are heavy, and are still only beneficial for power smoothing and dumping or sinking high amperage. They don't have anywhere near the storage capacity of batteries. Our i-MiEV battery alone would handle the power requirements of the Rasa (50 kW regen, and likely the same acceleration power) and would power it for 80-100 miles if not more.

8 Tesla battery modules would give them 42 kWh of battery capacity, 161.2 VDC nominal, 250 amps output (about 40 kW at 1C), and take up a hair more space than their capacitor bank. 42 kWh would allow our i-MiEV to drive for 163 miles. Something like the Rasa should be able to do more than 200 miles on that, and have a much better refueling network.

The AC from Grid hit should affect both. Regardless, the BEV powertrain still comes out way ahead.

I agree about weight vs. aero drag, too. Weight is also less of a factor on vehicles with regenerative braking vs. pure friction as we can recover kinetic energy. That's why a Tesla at double the weight of the i-MiEV only suffers slightly in energy economy.

Their argument separating powertrain efficiency from total efficiency I see as flawed. Isn't our i-MiEV more efficient overal despite the weight and aero hit just because of the FCEV inefficiency? Look at how efficient the old EV1 was, and it used lead batteries!

 

[Phximiev]

"Keeping Up".

https://youtu.be/zSC88chAw8I

 

[Phximiev]

Wonder if it shatters upon impact?

Or where does the energy go in a crash?

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/riversimple-to-trial-innovative-flax-fibre-composite/

 

[Phximiev]

Another hydrogen application:

http://phys.org/news/2016-09-world-seater-fuel-cell-plane-germany.html

 

[Phximiev]

Fuel cell aging?

https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/quiet-clean-sustainable-hydrogen-powered-road-sweeper-cleans-the-streets-in-duebendorf/

 

[Phximiev]

Riversimple crowdfunding update per their email (between the lines):

_______

The crowdfunding is building slowly and steadily. We have about £103k in escrow and a number of investors considering investing large sums of £200k +. We have a team of engineers working in LLandrindod Wells and are now ramping up to develop the Beta cars. Do call us on the number below if you would like to know more.

Thank you again for your interest in Riversimple and our commitment to eliminating the environmental impact of personal transport.
Kind regards

Fiona, on behalf of the Riversimple Team

T. 01597 821060

_____

 

[Phximiev]

Guardian article:

https://www.theguardian.com/small-business-network/2016/oct/25/hydrogen-entrepreneurs-at-the-forefront-of-the-clean-car-revolution

 

[Phximiev]

Fuel cell trains: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1106965_alstom-hydrogen-fuel-cell-train-to-be-tested-in-germany

 

[Phximiev]

Article explaining why fuel cell trains (Hydrail) are running late:

http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/index.php/hydrogen-economy/hydrail-trains-are-running-too-late-heres-why/

 

[Phximiev]

Per an email from ACTransit, the following link provides updated info on the transit's Hyroad (Hydrogen Fuel Cell Bus) program:

http://www.actransit.org/environment/the-hyroad/

 

[Phximiev]

Seems simple enough:

https://youtu.be/ONK1DORs3hU

 

[Phximiev]

Another hydrogen application:

http://phys.org/news/2016-09-world-seater-fuel-cell-plane-germany.html

The HY4 airplane website: http://hy4.org

Videos:

https://youtu.be/gCkj3I_wu_o

https://youtu.be/wgcP59MaJec

https://youtu.be/6q9eToc-Qjk

 

[Phximiev]

Fuel cell's in marine applications:

http://www.maritime-executive.com/article/lng-engines-could-be-stepping-stone-to-fuel-cells

https://youtu.be/1QL7QjfE5-8

https://youtu.be/BmCPYotVBbM

https://youtu.be/aiCNiTPp3v0