Riversimple and Fuel Cell Discussions

[Phximiev]

Fully Charged video on Riversimple:

http://youtu.be/utmkddBFUg0

 

[siai47]

Interesting video on the Riversimple. I like his business model, sort of a beyond "renting" the battery in a BEV to a whole renting of the car and some of it's components. It looks like they have solved the fuel cell stack cost problem by "renting" that also. My only question in the video is who at Riversimple has already figured out the whole H2 scam? Could it be the owner of the Black Tesla Model S parked in the background near the end of the video? The Hydrogen solution is already parked in their parking lot and it's a BEV. It's going to take a lot to make the Riversimple comparable with the something as Reallysimple as an I-MiEV. I didn't see any HVAC systems, airbags, energy absorbing structures (including bumpers or side impact) or "infotainment" systems. At least I saw a windshield wiper. I don't think the fuel cell stack's output is even capable of heating the car and driving it at the same time! I know, I know---it's only a prototype and those things will come---taking energy from the small fuel cell stack and adding weight to the vehicle. It would probably be relegated to LSV status in the U.S. or need some other method to skirt the safety requirements. The I-MiEV wouldn't even meet our standards without widening the car several inches. I know what I would buy if priced the nearly the same and it would be the I-MiEV which would be far safer, cheaper to operate, haul more people and cargo and I wouldn't have to rent it or drive beyond it's range to "fuel" it up. The I-MiEV is a real car that does what it is designed to do well and at a very low price point. Even with all it has going for it, most people wouldn't ever want to drive one or own one much less be caught by their friends even considering one. My friends thought I was crazy until I actually had to drag them into riding/driving one--then they started to warm up to it---a little. The Riversimple might be too far down the food chain to be considered unless it's a $99 lease like Mitsubishi had on the 2012's which is what hooked me on my first I-MiEV.

 

[PV1]

I'm just wondering if the car is as efficient as they say it is when coming from Hydrogen, how efficient would it be when running from a Li-ion battery?

I couldn't get over the guy's hair reminding me of Marty Stuart :lol: .

I spotted the Tesla, too. It may belong to Robert Llewellynn.

To be legal in the US as it is, they'll have to make it a 3-wheeler, which will make it like the Arcimoto SRK and be classified as a motorcycle. I noticed they sourced the steering column from a late model Ford car (same stalks as my parents' C-Max). Also, it wouldn't take a "very large battery" to absorb 50 kW of regen. The i-MiEV's 16 kWh pack handles it just fine, especially when quick charging, where it'll take 50 kW for a few minutes before ramping down. How long can Riversimple's capacitor bank absorb regen before it is full? I've regenerated nearly 1.5 kWh coming down one hill when returning from 7 Springs (enough to gain a bar back on the charge gauge). You can't run a fuel cell in reverse.

On a separate but related note, I drove past a CNG refuelling station yesterday when the compressor was running. I can't see these being allowed in places where gas stations are close to houses. They are far too noisy, and the compressor itself creates emissions because it is a powered by a large engine running on what I assume to be CNG (could be diesel, and it honestly wouldn't surprise me). A hydrogen station would likely have something similar. A bunch of Eaton quick chargers aren't anywhere near as noisy.

 

[Phximiev]

All good points; additionally, the question of the hydrogen network itself has yet to be resolved. Where is it?

Even with the open questions, the Riversimple notion is still fascinating.

As another reference, I found this site dealing with hydrogen cars:

http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com

and its related Riversimple link:

http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/index.php/riversimple-rasa/

FYI, Kevin Kantola is the site owner and hydrogen advocate.

 

[Phximiev]

Found this on the Transport Evolved web site re: the Riversimple car and the question of heater/AC and the hydrogen network:

"Hi. The UK car will not feature aircon. It will have a heater but I don't have calculations to hand. ( sat in my garden enjoying the rarely sighted sun, in this part of Wales!) What I can tell you is that it will have less effect on range than battery cars as we will be scavenging some waste heat from the fuel cell. Something not possible on a BEV of course.
Riversimple have designed a car around a business plan. It is a local car with 300 miles range or a weekly fill if you look at it a little different. We will install a small refueling station (we don't need a large one as our tanks contain only 1.5kg of h2. We then expect to offer our sale of service model in a 20 to 25 mile radius of that filling station. This will allow us to build a network incrementally and then follow with a 4 seater motorway capable model in the future.
Costs of fuel are irrelevant to our customers as the company will pay. This will drive the company to search for greater vehicle efficiency in the future. Please take a look at the riversimple website for more details. Hope that helps."

See: https://transportevolved.com/2016/02/17/welsh-company-riversimple-unveils-rasa-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car-that-does-300-miles-on-1-5-kg-of-h2/

Bill apparently works at Riversimple from the comments he posted.

 

[Phximiev]

This received back from Nigel Holmes, CEO of the Scottish Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Association (between the lines):

__________
Many thanks for getting in touch via the SHFCA website.
 
Regarding your enquiry about the status of the hydrogen fuel network in Scotland and the UK, we have a number of projects underway in Scotland which are establishing clear opportunities for hydrogen from renewables into transport and similar applications. Here are current examples in Scotland:
- Aberdeen has the largest fleet of fuel cell buses in Europe
- Orkney is developing use of electrolysers for wave and wind renewable energy balancing
- The Hydrogen Office in Fife is developing a localised grid balancing system with electrolyser and fuel cell
 
Really great to hear about your interest in the Riversimple project, we have links with the team at Riversimple and hope that we will be able to bring their vehicles to be part of one of the projects in Scotland.
 
Best Regards,     Nigel Holmes
 
CEO, Scottish Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Association
 
Mobile : 07818 091466
 
Scottish Hydrogen & Fuel Cell Association
SHFCA : recognised as ‘the most active H&FC association in Europe’
For recent news and forthcoming events see http://www.shfca.org.uk
Energy Technology Centre, Rankine Avenue, East Kilbride, G75 0QF

__________

As to the Aberdeen fleet, see: http://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/CouncilNews/ci_cns/pr_hydrogen_bus_190314.asp

And after a year of Aberdeen fleet operations: https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/aberdeen-hydrogen-bus-project-chalks-up-year-of-success

BOC is apparently providing the refueling stations for the Aberdeen fleet: http://www.boconline.co.uk/en/processes/hydrogen-refuelling/index.html

The sum of this is that some success has been achieved with a hydrogen fleet operation, which is what Riversimple is proposing.

 

[Phximiev]

My inquiry to BOC:
_____________
I just looked at the Aberdeen bus and refueling info online and noted that BOC built the hydrogen fueling station.  I cannot tell if the station uses natural gas or other fossil fuel to create the hydrogen or if the station converts water to hydrogen through electricity.

I am interested because of the Riversimple and other projects.

Please let me know.

_____________

BOC’s response:
_____________

The Aberdeen station uses water electrolysis to create the hydrogen. We use Hydrogenics alkaline electrolysers to create the hydrogen on site so using this method then as long as the energy is purchase[d] on a Green Tarrif (from renewables) the hydrogen has a zero "well to wheel" carbon cost.

The alternative method of production is through steam methane reforming which uses natural gas as its feedstock. If bio-methane is used as the feedstock then this is a low carbon fuel, or in the future there may be carbon capture and storage (CCS) installed on steam methane reformers so that the CO2 is captured and stored, this would significantly reduce the CO2 emissions.

I've attached a data sheet on the Aberdeen BOC station and also a leaflet from the project giving a brief overview.

I hope this helps. Please come back to me if you require any further information.

Best regards

Hamish


Dr Hamish Nichol

Business Development Manager - Innovation and Clean Energy

Tel: +44 (0) 755 4437269 (Home based)

BOC UK & Ireland | The Priestley Centre | Surrey Research Park | Guildford | Surrey | GU2 7XY | UK

[email protected] | http://www.boconline.co.uk

Sent from The BOC Group Limited, registered in England and Wales No. 22096, or from its subsidiary, BOC Limited, registered in England and Wales No. 337663 - members of The Linde Group. Registered office of both companies - The Priestley Centre, 10 Priestley Road, Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7XY, England.

_________

My conclusion:

This appears to be an ideal application of hydrogen in a fleet given the use of water electrolysis to create the hydrogen and, despite the naysayers, shows the viability of such a program.

This does leave the question as to whether the station is open to the public and the cost of re-fueling, which I will ask.

Please note that the station info and pamphlet he referred to is on the BOC site.

 

[Phximiev]

Is Riversimple proposing a franchise concept as well?

http://riversimple.com/how-the-business-works/

I'd ask for one if they had a design for AC and heat. Perhaps just a bigger tank to accommodate the power requirements.

 

[Phximiev]

A response from the City of Aberdeen as to whether their hydrogen stations are open to the public and whether they have plans to try the Riversimple cars:

________

Thank you for your interest in hydrogen developments in Aberdeen.

In answer to your questions:
The hydrogen production and refuelling station will be open to the public.

Aberdeen City Council has no plans meantime to purchase Riversimple cars. At present we have Hyundai ix35 FCEVs, as well as diesel/hydrogen hybrid transit vans and range-extended Renault Kangoo vans in our fleet.

Best wishes,
Angela


Angela Taylor
City Development Executive
Communities, Housing and Infrastructure
Aberdeen City Council
Ground Floor North, Hub 4
Marischal College
Aberdeen
AB10 1AB

Tel: 01224 523879
Mobile: 07747 658292

 

[Phximiev]

A modified Riversimple business model?

https://chargedevs.com/features/evercar-brings-its-fleet-of-evs-to-uber-lyft-instacart-and-other-on-demand-services/

 

[phb10186]

You have to credit this bloke for challenging the default car production sales model. The development of good infrastructure usually requires multi-lateral solutions to distribute resources in the most efficient way.

Yes, being British myself, I do look favourably on home grown manufacturing innovation as a throwback to a bygone era. Will he find success - i'm not convinced. Micro-manufacturers have an extremely poor success rate, most failing. It only takes a look at Tesla to realise that $BNs have to be spent to change things properly, so this could only be a drop in the ocean.

More likely the company would reach an economies of scale limit, and the success would be in the sale of the IP to a larger company who may take it on or may kill it.

There have been a raft of small British car start-ups over the past half-century, and very few indeed still exist - even the likes of Lotus have gone bust multiple times because diluting the fixed costs of all this stuff means you never get cost-effectiveness compared to the mainstream.

Would I like a go - most definitely, but even for early adopters, not having the thing at your disposal all the time is a problem - and one of the things I notice about I-Miev owners is the cost-effective utility it brings: you have it all the time, and it costs virtually nothing to run, and you feel that you are buying in to responsible ownership.

On a separate note, the first supermarket functioning hydrogen filling station in the UK opened a few miles from me in London, right by a Toyota dealership unsurprisingly, and about the time the Mirai was launched. The filling station currently comprises an array of hydrogen gas cylinders - the type you see medical gasses in... looks like there is some sort of air fractional distillator there too...

https://twitter.com/spenley/status/656464386664603648

 

[Phximiev]

You could be right about Riversimple. They may become a footnote only; but at the moment its too early to tell, I think.

As to the hydrogen supermarket station, who provides the hydrogen and how do they create it in the first place? Gas reform or electrolysis? And who is now using it?

 

[phb10186]

As to the hydrogen supermarket station, who provides the hydrogen and how do they create it in the first place? Gas reform or electrolysis? And who is now using it?

No idea at all to either.

I was at the Honda Dealership getting my Insight serviced so I went to have a look at this filling station and obviously nobody was there.. you have the store, then Honda and Toyota/ Lexus on either side.

Looks to me like there is a fairly basic array of medical gas canisters as a storage reservoir, then what can only be described as a small shipping container making a humming noise, and next to it an even smaller one - I thought that the canister array can be constantly filled up, so wither there is a filling take in the box somewhere, or there is an air splitter array - quite unsure.

The only people who can be using it are any owners of the Mirai - and I would assume that's about 2, or the Hyundai IX35 HFCV which I didnt think was even on saly - so, yeah; about 2 people use it, and it cost £11m to install.

 

[phb10186]

Here you go: (from: http://www.driving.co.uk/news/the-future-of-hydrogen-filing-stations-in-britain/)

'The hydrogen is derived from natural gas, delivered by tanker. At the site, it is kept in canisters in a secure area behind the pump. Stored at up to 700 bar (around 10,000psi), it’s at high pressure but that’s not necessarily as much as it sounds, say the operators: the fluid in brake lines reaches a higher pressure when you hit the brakes.

When it comes to refuelling, the situation is simpler than with electric vehicles because there is only one standard. Hydrogen cars and filling stations use a universal nozzle, which locks onto the car and pumps the pressurised gas into the tank. Fill-ups take 3-5 minutes and the distance you can go on a single tank depends on whether you fill up at 300 bar or the newer standard of 700 bar, which packs more gas into the same space. In the recent trials, drivers reported being able to travel 300 miles on a 700-bar fill-up.

There is likely to be a small but growing fleet of hydrogen-powered cars to use the filling stations. As well as the Hyundai ix35, Toyota’s Mirai and a Honda model are close to arriving in dealerships in hydrogen-powered form.

ITM, which opened Britain’s newest hydrogen pump last month, in Rotherham, uses wind power to make hydrogen from water. The company says that it can make 80kg of hydrogen a day, enough to power 16 cars. The firm is about to announce prices, which it says are roughly equivalent to that of diesel on a pence per mile basis.

Graham Cooley, chief executive of ITM, admits that, without any cost advantage to hydrogen for now, buyers are likely to stick to conventional fuels. “What everybody is looking for are the early adopters,” he says. “Those who are foresighted will want to try something new. The cars are fantastic and buyers will be driving the future in both senses of the words.”

By next year Cooley plans to have six filling stations, including three at Shell petrol stations, where the hydrogen generators will use National Grid electricity and drivers will be able to pay at the pump.

Eventually, tougher emissions regulations, inner-city pollution charges and reductions in the price of hydrogen cars and fuel are likely to make zero-emissions cars more attractive. Some companies have even suggested that hydrogen cars could be filled at home, free of charge, with small electrolysers generating hydrogen using electricity produced by solar panels.'


So for now they blow up methane to produce hydrogen...

 

[Phximiev]

Interesting. The methane part I object to. BOC on the other hand, for the Aberdeen project, uses electrolysis powered by a relatively green grid there.

I still am of the opinion that a green hydrogen network to support fleets (like Aberdeen) is both cost and ecologically justifiable.

I for one do not want to see oil companies in the hydrogen business. Something "smelly" there.

 

[siai47]

300 bar 700 bar? Sounds scary to me. I drive CNG fueled vehicles and they are only 250 bar (3600 PSI) in the US and limited to 200 bar (2900 PSI) in Canada. If you have ever seen the result of a CNG tank explosion at those "low" pressures you sure wouldn't want to be within a city block of something with nearly three times the pressure rupturing. 10,000 psi in a brake line is really off the charts. A gorilla hammering the pedal in a panic stop! The result of a failure would release a small amount of brake fluid and a possible crash due to brake failure. It's a big difference when a large volume of gas is compressed in a cylinder. That's why you hydrostatically test pressure vessels--liquids don't really compress so a failure of the pressure vessel under test is no big deal--not so with gasses. It isn't a fire or explosion from the fuel that is the issue, its the shrapnel from the body of the tank that does the damage. Just my two cents (again) but when you have a fuel with such low energy per cubic foot you really have to up the pressure to get enough stored energy in a cylinder that will fit in the car to give you acceptable range. Otherwise, nobody in their right mind would ever compress to these levels.

 

[PV1]

Has anyone seen a dry ice bomb or a propane tank explosion and the damage one can do? That's only 150-200 PSI. Imagine much more volume at 10,000 PSI. That's the biggest reason I'm against Hydrogen and Natural Gas vehicles. The CNG refuelling station in the next town operates at 4,700 PSI. I certainly wouldn't want to be around that, especially with tanks under a vehicle exposed to rocks and road debris.

The highest number I found for a car's brake system is just over 1,000 PSI, not 10,000 PSI. Even if brake pressure was that high, it's totally liquid based and has almost no compression. So, if a leak does happen, it only sprays a couple of fluid ounces, not a city block's worth of gas. Brakes have a lot of pressure, but little energy behind it.

10,000 PSI only nets 300 miles? The upcoming Gen2 EVs will do an affordable 200 miles with a mostly inert battery. The Model S and Roadster 3.0 do 300 miles or more today and have an existing charging network.

I hate to be continually negative about an issue, but I have yet to see evidence that makes Hydrogen a better solution than battery electrics. Refuel time is the disadvantage to batteries, but in reality for most drivers, it's a non-issue and often is only an issue when there's a lack of planning or faulty equipment.

 

[Phximiev]

Could be, but more than likely ( :roll: ) the bus and car manufacturer's have designed the tanks to be safe and withstand the pressures, see: http://www.computerworld.com/article/2852323/heres-why-hydrogen-fueled-cars-arent-little-hindenburgs.html

Then there's that first accident . . .

 

[phb10186]

I thought 10K PSI sounded excessive for peak brake fluid pressure. One other thing, as far as I can tell brake fluid is inert, and is not inflammable. I've had a brake line go on a very old Cavalier, and I still managed to slow down from 35mph to about 20mph as the line popped - and then I yanked up the hand brake and that got me down to about 5mph, so the impact was small.

Thinking about it, that was almost 20 years ago now - yikes.

The hydrogen tank exploding thing - yes a worry, especially if a car end up with an electrical fire to set it off. They must have considered the safety of this (one would have hoped).

Technically, Li-IOn batterries can also explode if something FUBARs... and that probably increases with age and degradation.

 

[Phximiev]

Riversimple approved for use in South Wales:

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/14546175.Hydrogen_car_trial_given_go_ahead_in_Monmouthshire/