Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

[LOWRACER]

Hey lowracer,

That looks like a really good Idea. Thanks for taking the time to post the pictures.

I have a couple of questions about your mod:

Do you have any information about how much it saves in energy or how much hotter the air is coming out of the vents. It looks like the temp is about 84 deg C what was it before the mod ? What was the outside temp when you did this ? Was the car moving in cold air or stopped ?

Looks like a great idea I'm sure it helps. I wonder why they didn't do this at the factory it just makes sense.

Don......

Thanks don!
Of course I've tested it before the insulation mod.
I've lifted the car and removed the plastic cover( fixed with 8pcs M6 bolts and 3 clips).
Then I turned the heater button to the maximum and "PUSH MAX" too.
Ouside temp is 12C°, after 27seconds I've measured a temperature of 63C° with an IR-Thermometer on the bottom of the aluminum PTC-heater element! :roll:
OK, the heater has got a nominal power of 5000Watts....
But this heater plans don't work out, because many KiloWatts are blown away!!!

The PTC-heater has got around 3cm free space, that's a not disired air blast cooling.
With the 25mm Armaflex(150C° cellfoam) the generated heat stay into the PTC-Heater, the loss is minimized! I was so impressed that I decided me to insulate the hoses to the pump, reservoir and the way back.
Maybe the insulation was Mitsubishi to expensive!

Here my experience over 2weeks in the night(outside temp 11-13C°):
Before the insulation mod, I turned the heater to maximum, the heat was coming very slowly.
The shown possible range went back all minute...
After the insulation mod, I don't need to turn the heater to the maximum, because the air is so hot that you can burn your fingers in front of the grid. The button position "halfway through" is realistic here. The shown possible range go back to 15-25Km! :mrgreen:


The i-MiEV has got 2 different liquide circulations, but you cannot combine both with another!

The first, so cold as possible(<35C°):
Reservoir in the back-> pump-> charger-> controller-> motor-> cooler in the front->

The second, so hot as possible(>80C°):
Reservoir in the front-> pump-> heater element-> heater battery(inside)->

 

[sandange]

Lowracer - where are you located ? Do you have the winter package on your car?
Looks like a good idea to insulate those pipes.
I haven't had a chance to examine the underneath closely for heating system.
How about This - do you think a spray insulating foam could handle the temps and work in this type of application?

Thanks for the link Don, great information especially coming from
Winnipeg often fondly nicknamed Winterpeg!

 

[MLucas]

Thanks Don for that article - gives me encouragement that I'll do fine through this winter without the need for a mid day charge. Our averages in the Niagara region in the winter are quite mild with -10c being the lowest we see except on rare days. Which is above the -15c low temp warning in the owners manual.

LowRider - where did your get the armaflex? Is this a HomeDepot/Lowes option? I know the pipe insulation is HomeDepot acquireable, do you know the size you used?

Thanks,

 

[LOWRACER]

Lowracer - where are you located ? Do you have the winter package on your car?
Looks like a good idea to insulate those pipes.
I haven't had a chance to examine the underneath closely for heating system.
How about This - do you think a spray insulating foam could handle the temps and work in this type of application...

I'm from Luxembourg!
Nope, I've aluminum rims with DUNLOP ENASAVE summer tires!
I'll drive the i-MiEV only in spring, summer and autumn.
For the real winter time I've an old Opel Astra, so no "Idiot-Driver" can crash the brandnew i-MiEV, that's much more than precaution of course!!! :lol:

I wouldn't prefer the spray insulating foam, because it expands under pressure very much and it glue on EVERYTHING!
With EVERYTHING I mean also the orange high voltage cables(DANGER), sensor cables and the hoses!
You cannot get it away without acetone! :roll:
Then you'll better use an self adhesive insulating tape!
If you know a DIYer friend with a lifting platform, you can insulate it like shown on the pictures!
For a relax working you'll need about 4hours.
The needed material:
1x PATTEX power glue(contact adhesive)
1x ARMAFLEX cell foam, thickness 25mm
30cm x 47cm(around the heater) & 2pcs 15cm x 7cm(right/left cover)
2m NOMAZIP insulating (inside diameter 25mm, with a zip)
OR 5m self adhesive insulating tape

Take your time, that means no fast "botchery",
if the heater/hoses is completely wrapped in the insulating, you can get nearly 100% boiled water to the heater battery inside the i-MiEV!!!

 

[martinwinlow]

Hi (new to list, so please be gentle),

I converted a small petrol van to electric drive 3 years ago (evalbum.com/2092 if you're interested) and drove it very happily for 18 months until it got written off when I was rammed by a looter during the UK riots in August last year. I did nearly 14k miles in it including 2 winters. I always intended to get around to fitting a cabin heater but...

I made do with pre-heating the cabin by mounting a mains fan heater on a piece of board sat on the passenger seat facing forward on the lowest setting and having it come on automatically with a mains socket timer 30 mins before I was due to use it. It had a thermostat built in too so it wouldn't overheat. The board was big and heavy enough to prevent accidents and I had an audible and SMS-based smoke alarm fitted anyway - just in case. This took care of de-misting and heated the cabin nicely.

Unfortunately, the van was rather draughty so I had to resort to using a nice heavy rug too - for when it REALLY cold. Happy days.

The thread title here is about extending the range of the iMiev but it seems to have drifted to how to keep warm in an iMiev. Obviously the 2 are related due to the use of what appears to be a water heater mounted under the car (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that is circulated through the cabin heater in much the same way an ICEV does it. This is a very inefficient way of doing things and the only reason ICEVs use it is because they have so much 'free' heat - wasted by the ICE.

Using a PTC air heater in the cabin would be much more efficient as the path of change from electrical energy to heat is much shorter. The PTC also has the benefit of having an electrical conductivity that is related to the inverse of temperature ie the hotter it gets, the greater its resistance. This is a built-in safety feature.

For DIY conversions, you can use either cannibalised mains ceramic heater elements or buy one specifically designed for the DIY EV market. They are used in place of the ICEV water heater matrix and are fitted relatively simply - tho it usually means removing the dash. One other advantageous feature of these heating elements is that they consist of an array of heating elements which, with a certain degree of cunning, can be wired such that they can be powered by the mains (110 or 240VAC systems) but also directly from the EV battery pack, usually through the use of a suitably rated relay or two. This means they can use mains power directly when plugged in for pre-warming/cooling as well as by the pack when on the move.

Despite having actually bought a used Webasto diesel heater for my van, I never got around to fitting it but this is IMO the best and only really practical solution for climates where the temperature regularly falls below 0C. It is very easy to install as it just plumbs into the coolant pipework that already exists on the iMiev (and most DIY EV conversions) which means you don't have to start tearing out the dash etc. I has its own little 12V self contained circulation pump which draws little current. They are relatively cheap to buy and very cheap to run using around 0.1L of diesel/hour. http://www.webasto-outdoors.com/index.php?id=47&cHash=62cc0b1660 The exhaust is only 20mm in diameter and can terminate pretty much anywhere as the potentially dangerous exhaust output is very small - unlike an ICE.

Best of all, there is a thread on the Land Rover Discovery forum which details a cheap way of remote starting the webasto by mobile phone... http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/11505/Installing%20a%20Fuel%20Burning%20HeaterTimer%20Remote%20v1-1.pdf

Given that practical use of an EV in extremely cold climes is so dependant on its limited battery pack, by its very nature and unlike most other forms of personal transportation that have come before, I simply find it incredible that Mitsubishi (or any other production EV manufacturer) would sell an EV without at least offering this form of heating as an option. I wonder what they used for heat in the early EVs like the Baker etc?

Insulation has been mentioned in this thread but it seems to me this is a key issue that can have a very significant impact on heat (and A/C) energy drain. Again, with conventional vehicles, this just hasn't been an issue - other than for sound, of course. For EV's, along with so many other important aspects of EV design, people are having to think outside the box. I'm a fan of the foil-backed, bubble-wrap stuff which claims (and my experience backs it up) to offer the equivalent of 50mm (2") of expanded polystyrene insulation in a 6mm (1/4") thickness. It has little sound absorbency though so it would be fine to go under the carpet for example. But I would be inclined to line any vehicle panel with it or even a couple (or more) layers if space permits.

For production EVs I can see double glazed windows becoming common along with built in tints to reflect UV thus preventing the 'greenhouse' cabin warming effect when the vehicle is left parked for hours in the sun (more a cooling issue than heating, I know!). Someone already mentioned the heisted windscreens used by some of the major auto makers - this, again, seems a complete no-brainer to me for production EVs, but who uses them?

Reversible heat pumps are probably the way to go for general (non-extreme) climate control in EVs due to their high efficiency but are a bit expensive for the time being - certainly for the DIY market.

Anyway, I hope some of (all!) that will be useful and it will be fun to see how all these areas of EV design evolve. Interesting times, indeed. MW

 

[DonDakin]

Hello Lowracer/Martin,

I took a closer look at the heating system tonight and I agree with everything lowracer is saying. There is a lot of hoses and the white resevoir getting very hot with the heat on. I was surprised at the length on hose in the heating loop. I thought it was short but it's very long maybe 4-5 feet. I tried to do some calculations on the heat loss based on 2 square feet of exposed area. I came up with about 750 watts of heat loss at 70 km/hour. If you insulate with 1 inch of foam (R5) you reduce this to 150 watts of heat loss. I'm not sure how accurate this is. Never the less I am proceeding to start insulating the hoses first as that is the easiest first thing to do. I can't find any flat armaflex in my area. I do have lot's of white styrofoam. I was thinking I would "box in the heater in 1 inch of styrofoam and then use some speed tape (aluma tape) to seal it. I'll see how it goes.

Thanks for the tip.

Don.....

 

[LOWRACER]

Hello Lowracer/Martin,

I took a closer look at the heating system tonight and I agree .....

It's working perfect! Now the whole system is insulated...
The reservoir has got a turtleneck pullover now:

 

[sandange]

Lowracer - Great insulating details! I'll be looking into this later with my mechanic. This covers maximizing efficiency of the electric heater pretty well.

A drop in the temperature, got me motivated to move on with my set up of my supplementary propane heater. At this point in time this is an experiment in order to evaluate it's practicality.

Disclaimer - Just want to establish that I am going ahead with this at my own risk and if anyone else decides to try this, they do so at their own risk. I will not be held responsible for their actions.

The additional heater is to help out on those very cold days -13F to -31F (-25 to -35C) we experience up here in our location in Canada
The heater is a Coleman catalytic propane heater, 3,000 BTU, with a built in battery operated Fan.

Heater Secured in Place- slide show

http://s211.photobucket.com/user/Sandange/slideshow/miev/EV Propane heater

I traced out the cargo area on a cardboard. I wanted the heater base to be wedged in tight using it as a template I cut a 3/4 "plywood
Snugly fitting in key locations - Will follow up after a performance test run.- waiting for a cold snap.

 

[MLucas]

Sandage - that ought to do the trick. That should be nice and cozy in there in the winter. Now if you could figure out a remote control option for the temp you'd have it all. Probably, a cable operated link to the thermostat.

It's 10c here this morning in Niagara Falls and with the heater on the first step above the green dot, my commute took one more bar than usual to get to Buffalo this morning. I'll be looking into similiar functionality soon.

 

[dsmall24us]

Link to a story on how BMW is working on using infrared to heat their ev's in cold weather.

http://www.torquenews.com/1079/bmw-turns-infrared-heating

Dan

 

[Don]

Link to a story on how BMW is working on using infrared to heat their ev's in cold weather.

http://www.torquenews.com/1079/bmw-turns-infrared-heating

Interesting. I wonder how hard it would be to wire up three 120 volt, 250 watt infared bulbs in series and connect them to the cars 330 volt power with a switch for on/off?

http://www.amazon.com/WATTS-HOURS-LIGHT-INDUSTRIAL-INFRARED/dp/B000STDLFE

This would consume less than 750 watts of electicity (the cars heater uses 5,000 watts when it's full on) and it might make a real difference in the cabin temperature

Don

 

[sandange]

MLucas - Our temps this morning were 37f, (3c) starting to get fresh

I just want to see how well the unit will keep the cabin warm and going to keep an eye on the humidity levels too.

To start with I'll turn the heater on before I depart and try to control the temperature and humidity levels by adjusting the size of the opening of one of the rear windows.

I had considered setting the heater more forward and facing it backward so the driver could reach back to access the controls on the unit, but not too sure yet of how hot things get and if I do that I'm concerned about the upright rear seat beside the heater getting too hot. Also the rear passenger possibly touching the hot heater's surface.


dsmall24us & Don
Thanks for the infrared links, This is very interesting information, hopefully to be available soon.

 

[MLucas]

Interesting. I wonder how hard it would be to wire up three 120 volt, 250 watt infared bulbs in series and connect them to the cars 330 volt power with a switch for on/off?

Wouldn't that be a bit too much? We used to heat a bathroom with just one of these things and that was plenty of heat. And how would it be controlled?

Wouldn't the i look like some kind of rolling all-you-can-eat buffet going down the road?

Just some thoughts and questions about this idea.


Sandage - what about a smaller unit or is this what you had available? I see coleman makes a SportCat model meant for heating tents and other small spaces. The i isn't that big and it shouldn't take a lot of heat.

I'm thinking a more practical solution for commuters that don't travel with more than one passenger is to create a front/rear seperation curtain and only heat the front half of the car.

--Lucas

 

[sandange]

MLucas - What I like about this unit is that it has a fan incorporated in it with a switch and a nice finished appearance,
I also was worried about buying one too small.
Unfortunately it has only 3 positions Light, On & Off nothing in between

I'm thinking a more practical solution for commuters that don't travel with more than one passenger is to create a front/rear separation curtain and only heat the front half of the car.

We had an ICE van that we had installed a curtain behind the drivers seat trying to stay warm but visibility was compromised and it had little effect.

I did a small modification on the plywood base for when I want to store it in the cargo area - in case I need to use the full rear seat for passengers or cargo

Installed a piano hinge

----

Collapsed in Transport mode

----

In Transport With the Seat Up

 

[Don]

Sandage - what about a smaller unit or is this what you had available? I see coleman makes a SportCat model meant for heating tents and other small spaces. The i isn't that big and it shouldn't take a lot of heat

I don't think the 3,000 BTU unit he bought will be too large . . . . if anything, it may prove to be a bit small and he may have to use the car's heater to go along with it. There are 3.4 BTU's to a watt of electricity. Those 120 volt, 1450 watt household heaters are usually rated at about 5,200 BTU's, and the car's heater is 5KW, so it should put out around 17,000 BTU's running full blast . . . . the little Coleman 3,000 BTU unit seems pretty paltry by comparison

If it's a cold day, he won't be needing to turn it down

Don

 

[DonDakin]

Last night I left a friends house at 10:00 PM it was 9 Deg C and I had 93 KM left on the RR. It was cold car was outside 4 hours in that falling temp. I drove home onthe highway at 90-100 km. Turned on the heat full blast RR dropped to 47 but I left it on to heat things up. Was not too bad but heat was not stellar. I am half way thru insulating the heating system. Got home fine turned off the heat and RR when back up to 67. I have to get used to understanding the RR guage and not overreacting to it.

Question for Sandage, does your heater fog up the windows ?

I'd like to know how that is going.

Don....

 

[sandange]

Question for Sandage, does your heater fog up the windows ?

I haven't had a chance to give it a good run yet, waiting for cooler temperatures.
I did fire it up for about 5 minutes with it installed in the car to make sure that it was a safe distance from anything flammable, (seat material, door panels etc) all is good.

First impression is that it gave off a reasonable amount of heat

It takes about 10 minutes for the heater to reach max operating temperature - haven't gone there yet

I'll give it a good run once temperatures get below 32F - 0c and post my findings

 

[MLucas]

Here is my take on LowRacer's door panel insulation process. I used reflective barrier insulation on the doors with foil tape. I started by taking the door panel off, very simple remove the screws in the door handle, the arm rest and the one in the corner of the door. Then just work your fingers around the base of the door panel and pull firmly, the panel will unsnap from the door. Then lift the panel from the top of the door frame, before going to far disconnect the electrical connection and the cables that operate the handle and the lock. All very easy. I then followed LowRacer's tip of covering all of the holes in the plastic - first I went around the entire clear plastic and pressed on the black goop that holds in place. I found a lot of gaps where it wasn't pressed down very hard. Then I covered the holes with red tuck tape - around the cables and the wire bundle and whereever else I found a gap. Then I fitted the silver reflective barrier to the door, sealed with silver foil tape and refitted the door panel. Takes about 20 - 30 minutes a door. I find it a bit quieter and warmer inside but that could be just my imagination, no scientific test have been conducted on the efficacy of this remedy. Next I want to insulate the roof - its bare bones up there and could use a layer of this reflective barrier. Note 1: on the rear doors there is some hip protection that you'll need to make a cutout for and seal, see the pictures below. Note 2: I did not tape around the speakers the way LowRacer did. I saw what looked like air channels in the side of the speaker and did not want to reduce the efficiency of my front only speakers by covering these.

Link to the reflective barrier at HomeDepot: http://www.homedepot.com/Building-M...splay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051

 

[sandange]

MLucas

That's the same material I would use if I go that route with the doors.
Let us know how you think it performs when it gets cool out.

 

[fjpod]

I hate to be negative about this insulation issue...

The car has a lot of glass, and the roof, and a lot of doorseals. If you have the heat on inside, most of it is going to be lost there. If you don't really have the heat on, the insulation is useless...you're just keeping the cold inside...but not really. The R value of thin insulation like that is almost useless. If anything it is supposed to be reflective, but it is buried in the car door.

Best way to heat the car?? Keep it in the sunshine. Second best maybe to run the batteries hard so they get warm and heat the cabin above.