Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

[tonymil]

You have to send your car the signal to preheat within 100m or 300 feet of the car, so you won't be able to preheat until you are back at the station.

MLucas is right, you can program charging ahead of time but not heating/cooling. I knew that yet I still gave you bad info. Senior moment I guess...

Sandage, I agree with you that running the car heater during extended travel time due to bad weather/traffic is a big concern especially with the temperatures and other info you've identified. Ouch. However, I see that the propane heater you linked to works from a flame. If you really are considering a propane heater you should look at the catalytic type. Take a look at this study:

http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia05/os/co03.pdf

Let us know what you decide.

Tony

 

[sandange]

Take a look at this study:

http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia05/os/co03.pdf

Thanks for the link Tony
I will have to look it over and carefully review it.
I would definitely have a rear window open a crack no matter which type I might use.
This report favors the catalytic propane heaters .
I was looking at a Coleman with a fan earlier

Still trying to sort out the remote control and its limitations.
At first I thought when you program the charging time
(Delay to start) next (duration of charge) and then set (pre-cool or heat) that it would (Pre-cool or heat) in the last half hour of the charging time set. But had no time to test anything.

We are located in the Lauretian Mountains, (retirement home in Ski Country) 1 hour North of Montreal, Quebec.

Most of our family is located in the city 65-80 km (41-50 miles) one way. We like to visit at least once a week -
In winter less frequent -

This might be just beyond the max range for 1 charge each way depending on weather.
I think we will be testing the Mievs limits this winter.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

Get yourself a heated vest like motorcyclists wear!

 

[sandange]

What about the rest of the passengers?

LOL - Just my weird sense of humor

I'm hoping to find an alternative choice to make the passenger cabin comfortable, defrost the windows, and spare the battery To extent the range.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

Right, we need quick electric defrosters in EV -- they have made these in the past. Ford and others have put very thin (a few molecules thick) of gold on the windshield and this cleared the windshield in a few seconds. You only could see the gold from certain angles outside the car. Heated seats or heated vests that heat people's bodies directly would be far more energy efficient. Maybe this could be even less power than the best A/C systems?

 

[Don]

Heated seats or heated vests that heat people's bodies directly would be far more energy efficient. Maybe this could be even less power than the best A/C systems?

No question there - The i heater draws 5,000 watts max, the A/C is 4,500 watts and the typical motorcycle heated vest is only 100 watts or less. You can also buy 12 volt lap blankets very cheaply

Neil's idea is a good one - You can buy the vests for $100 to $150 and using those wouldn't affect the car's range hardly at all. You might still have to minimally run the heater in the defrost mode to keep the windows clear, but even that would be probably 90% more energy efficient than trying to heat the cabin with it

For a one hour trip, preheating the car, wearing a vest plugged into the car's 12 volt system and using the heater minimally should allow you to make a 50 mile trip I would think. This sounds safer to me than anything burning in the passenger compartment

FWIW, GM once manufactured a car which used a gasoline powered heater - It was mounted in the trunk so no fumes or exhaust entered the passenger compartment and it provided TONS of heat . . . . it would literally run you out of the car when set on high, no matter how cold it was outside

Don

 

[sandange]

Take a look at this study:

http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia05/os/co03.pdf

Ok Had a chance to look at this a little closer.
with my limited knowledge of these matters - Here is what I can decipher from all this

They tested 2 types Infrared & Catalytic propane heaters
Concerns were about co2, oxygen, and hydrocarbon safety levels

Venting is an important factor especially over longer periods of time 4-6 hours
This is mostly the case for concerns for closed in small cabins, tents, campers, fishing shacks etc
in extended situations especially when sleeping

They praise the oxygen depletion Shut off sensor as a safety feature

If anyone with a more scientific mind would like to give their review of this report please do comment

My Conclusion
The Miev is not the type of vehicle for driving for more than 1 - 2 hours at a time with out opening a window or door once - this would do a significant cabin air exchange.
If I were to use one of these heaters I would certainly leave a rear window open a crack for venting purposes


I'll be exploring this further
Looking at units with heat level adjustments and oxygen depletion safety shut offs

Thanks for your suggestions
I'm not a fan of getting dressed with or offering friends or family members an electric vest/blanket, to drive them around in the winter.
I'm sure it can would work but looking for another solution.

 

[sandange]

The question about the Hydro Quebec "Circuit Electrique" Charge stations -
I should of made clearer as.....

If I had swiped my pay card & were charging,
Shortly after, there was a power failure for 5 seconds or more.- but now I've left to go to work.

When the power returns, would it continue charging or
would the charger think the session was over and require another swipe.

I've sent an email to them regarding this, and hope to get an answer soon.

Just to follow up I got an answer back from them...
Not the Answer I wanted to hear

If there is power failure while connected to their charger
and the power comes back on

The machine will assume the charging session is over and will not resume charging

You would have to swipe your card again to resume..

They did suggest that, should this happen, I call them and they would credit me back the charging fee of $2.50


http://s211.photobucket.com/user/Sandange/slideshow/miev/EV Propane heater

On the subject of a heater
I picked up a 3,000 btu ,propane, catalytic, Coleman unit that has a fan incorporated into the housing.
I'll be trying it out when things cool off and share what I find

 

[jray3]

The unvented heaters will add a lot of water vapor to the cabin, which may fog the windows, etc. Aircooled Volkswagens used Webasto-type gasoline-fueled heaters with external exhaust. Those are still made, but spendy. I could easily see using a ceramic electric Heater or a floor mat/ chair mat electric heater on a timer and separate plug to preheat the cabin. Adding thermal mass might help in very limited conditions (just pull the plug on your giant hot water bottle to drain it after it cools off, creating an ice rink in the driveway). ;-)

 

[DonDakin]

Hello There,

This is an interesting thread. I also live in Montreal and I wonder how well the Imiev will deal with really cold weather.

From reading the thread it looks like the car can only be practically used for about 25 km in very cold weather with the heater running.
I say this because it looks like there is a 50% capacity drop in the battery at that temp so that brings the battery down to 8 KWH. The heater on full would draw 5 KW so about 1.6 KWH for a 20 minute drive. That leaves about 8Kwh - 2*1.6Kwh or 4.6Kwh for driving at 175 wh per Km (winter driving) or about 26 km round trip.

Sound reasonable ?


I say this because when it's really cold like -25 you have to warm the cabin. I tried last winter to use a seat heater in my ice car to simulate the 10 km drive home from work with only the seat heater and it's not possible. After about 5 minutes of no cabin heat and only seat heat it becomes unbearable. Mind you I was not dressed in my best winter gear but I also think it's crazy to get completely dressed up is arctic survival gear to get in a $35,000 car to drive home 10Km from work.

So for a Montreal winter it looks like the car needs to be indoors overnight in order to be usable in the really cold parts of winter.

I think 15km commutes to work would be fine and the battery temp would probably not cool down too much during the commute. However if it's not plugged in at work and sits for 8-10 hours at -25 deg C I guess it would cool to ambient and might not make it back home in the evening.

If it was plugged in at work then the battery heater should keep the battery at -20 deg C This seems to be just so that it can be charged and to keep the battery at a temperature that would not harm the battery.

So it looks to me like on really cold days you need to have the car plugged in all time that it is outside.

It was interesting to read that at -30 deg it looks like the battery warming gives up and stops. Shouldn't the cars sound an alarm that says "park me inside in a heated garage or i'll die...." in that case ?

Also another question come to mind. If the capacity of the battery is about 50% at -20 deg then does it take half the time to charge it ?

Don.....

 

[sandange]

Hi Don

After about 5 minutes of no cabin heat and only seat heat it becomes unbearable. Mind you I was not dressed in my best winter gear but I also think it's crazy to get completely dressed up is arctic survival gear to get in a $35,000 car to drive home 10Km from work.

I agree with you - Unless you have experienced these severe temperature It' hard to understand.

I have discussed winter driving with my dealer here in Blainville –

I also discussed this with a couple of other I Miev owners at the St Jerome Ecological Transportation Day.

Both have experienced some winter driving up here last winter

They also believe in pre-heating & getting supplementary heating for the cabin would extend their winter driving range

The understanding I had was that you would get about 60 % of your normal range because of all the factors involved, - Heating included

I’ve been getting around 100km – 130 km these last few weeks

So I imagine winter would be 60 –75 km approximately

I will soon find out

 

[DonDakin]

Thanks for the information. I am in the process of purchasing so I should be running around my area in out Imiev in the next few weeks.

My commute to work and back is only 20KM so I think I should be fine with the imiev even in really bad weather conditions. But after reading the post with the owners manual text on the battery heater I think exposing the car to temps below -25 for long periods of time without it being plugged in may not be good for it. Keeping the car in the garage and preheating it should be fine for the trip to work but I worry that leaving the car in the parking lot at work for 8-9 hours on those bitter days may harm the battery and also chill it down to the point that even a 10 km trek home with the heat on full blast could be difficult if there is a snowstorm and lot's of traffic. It would probably be a sinking feeling sitting in traffic with the heat on watching the bars disappear... I guess that's the worst case scenario.

There are a couple of natural thing that may just work out:

In general in a snow storm the temp's are usually not that cold more on the order of 0 deg C to -10 Deg C.

When the weather does clear up and it's -25 it is often sunny and there is alot of solar heating of the interior with the car in the parking lot. Mind you the the sun does set at about 4:00 PM and the car interior cools quickly after that. (maybe a good excuse to leave work early....)

We do have another car and so I plan to use the ICE for thoses super cold days and give the imiev a break.

That being said I guess I'll also find out this winter how it goes. It would be wonderfull to post something in the spring saying that the car worked flawlessly thru the harsh Quebec winter.

Don......

 

[sandange]

Don

Best practice for winter driving, would be to plug in where ever possible & keep that battery warm.
So far I used the pre cooling with the remote & it works great, I think that the pre-heater & defrost are as good.

Best of luck with your purchase negotiations, and should you find yourself up near St Sauveure with your new I Mieve you can always charge up at our place.
We are the private charge station indicated on the plugshare.com web site. (Ste.-Anne-des-Lacs)

 

[DonDakin]

Thanks Sandange,

I will look you up if I am in that area....

Don....

 

[JrCRXHF]

I am just going to keep the car plugged in and on days when we get more then 3" of snow i will just take the diesel truck (which also does not like the cold)

I have a 50mile round trip so in the winter when i run the heat it might be hard to make it with out plugging in at work we will see how things go.

 

[DonDakin]

JrCRXHF,

Where are you located ?

Don.....

 

[LOWRACER]

I've got insulated the heater module, that saves a lot of kWatts....
You don't need to disconnect any (dangerous high voltage-) cables or hoses!
The "Armaflex" insulation laying around the heater module like a big tube.

OK, here a few pictures:

 

[DonDakin]

Hey lowracer,

That looks like a really good Idea. Thanks for taking the time to post the pictures.

I have a couple of questions about your mod:

Do you have any information about how much it saves in energy or how much hotter the air is coming out of the vents. It looks like the temp is about 84 deg C what was it before the mod ? What was the outside temp when you did this ? Was the car moving in cold air or stopped ?

Looks like a great idea I'm sure it helps. I wonder why they didn't do this at the factory it just makes sense.

Don......

Actually I did a little poking around under the car and it looks like there are 2 liquid heating/cooling systems. I think the motor is cooled thru the rad in the front of the car just like in an ICE. The normal heater is a separate system.

I thought it might be an interesting idea if somehow the motor cooling system liquid could be switched and routed thru a second rad in the car. If this rad could be switched into the loop then you could recover some of the motor heat in the cabin. I guess it would require installing another small rad in the car and doing some plumbing and adding a some bypass valves. I have no idea if it would work well but any extra heat that could heat that cabin without the heater running would be free heat. You can always open the window to regulate the temp in the car if you had the motor heat pouring into the cabin.

Any thoughts ?

 

[Don]

I have no idea if it would work well but any extra heat that could heat that cabin without the heater running would be free heat. You can always open the window to regulate the temp in the car if you had the motor heat pouring into the cabin.

Any thoughts ?

I would tape the remote sensor from one of the little $5 or $10 battery powered thermometers to the coolant line exiting the drive motor and take some readings before I went to all the trouble you're suggesting. You might find the coolant is 125 degrees or more on a 90 degree summer day, but only 50 or 60 degrees on a cold winter day - There might not be much heat there to recover in the winter when the temps are really cold . . . .

Insulating things as Lowracer did seems to make good sense though - It appears easy enough to do and doesn't cost much, so even if it made just a 5 or 10% difference in energy consumption, it would still be beneficial - A decent return on your dollar

Don

 

[Don]

Here's an article that gives some winter range data for those of you in the frozen north

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2012/02/14/mb-electric-car-winter-cold-weather.html

My apologies if everyone has already read it, but I didn't see it referenced anywhere

Don