Need a longer range ev

[DougC]

My driving needs are about to change. I'm going to need 100+ miles of highway a couple times a week. My daily commute is 16 miles one way I prefer to charge at work and not at home. I'm cheap that way :?

I'm Looking for advice / recommendations

I'm tempted by the Bolt. A little pricy right now. 2 year old Volts or BMW i3 are decent priced. Would need the range extender on the i3. 2016 or newer Volt to get the longer ev range would be good.

Cabin heat is important. Does the i3 use the ice motor for heat?

Any thoughts and comments are welcomed.

 

[rmay635703]

I3’s you won’t want out of warranty for many reasons

Heating description here

https://www.speakev.com/threads/bmw-i3-rex-no-heat-pump-so-how-does-it-heat.3315/


Volts especially the Gen 1 are very reliable 35-65 miles per charge depending on weather and driving speed. On the 100 mile trip your speed and access to charging mid trip will determine the best model be it
Volt Gen 1
Volt Gen II
or Prime / Pip (have to run math better gas mpgs win if you are constantly driving long trips beyond EV range)

Put your speed, distance between chargers and standard “car” numbers to run your options.

Up front and maintenance Gen 1 is cheapest
Prime & Gen II are most up front but tied for maintenance (thus far)
Pip is middle of the pack up front but the least reliable (bad head gaskets and only engine heat)

Good Luck

 

[PV1]

The Bolt compliments the i-MiEV very well. They are both similarly packaged in terms of size and interior room, but the Bolt obviously gives you way more range and power with increased cabin luxury. With light heater usage (~45 F outside), I drove 160 miles at 70 MPH and arrived at the quick charger with 45 miles left. The Bolt is aerodynamic enough to where highway driving doesn't noticeably affect range.

My Pap recently bought a C-Max Energi (plug-in hybrid). Prior to him buying it, one of the salesman drove it about 90 highway miles every day. Charging at work and home, it was averaging 69 MPG on the dash. With my Pap driving it, he's gotten the average up to about 75 MPG. It has a 20 mile EV range, defaulting to hybrid operation after that (based on my parent's non-plug-in C-Max, regular hybrid use can easily average above 40 MPG).

Regarding highway performance between the C-Max hybrid and Gen 1 Volt, the C-Max seems happier overall. The Volt's generator complains on steeper hills. I actually get a headache every time I drive it in gas mode.

As for other 100-mile EV options, there is the 2017 LEAF with 30 kWh battery (107-mile EPA) or the 150-mile 2018 LEAF, although I don't know if the 2018 is available used yet. It looks like 2018 LEAFs start at $30,000 new

 

[DougC]

Thanks for the responses.

I think I can rule out the I3 based on the heater setup.

The only public charge stations on my 100 mile route are within 30 miles of my house. So I would need to go end to end without charging. A decent hybrid would be fine for the long trip as long as I can go 30+ mile on electric in the winter.

I've thought about the C-Max. There has been a few off-lease units at the local Ford dealer. Do you know how the heater is configured in the C Max, does it pull heat from the ice?

 

[rmay635703]

Thanks for the responses.

I've thought about the C-Max. There has been a few off-lease units at the local Ford dealer. Do you know how the heater is configured in the C Max, does it pull heat from the ice?

Personally, unless you need the space I wouldn’t go for the Cmax.

The cMax is a discontinued hybrid car similar to a PIP but with about twice the range.
This means it’s a hybrid first and EV second, see below
https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/Discussion-t44542_ds534257

Effectively it’s only source of heat is the gas engine, meaning ERDTT on steroids, it also , when left to its own devices does tend to engage the engine under a variety of circumstances where a Volt or Prime would run pure EV.
It also has the lowest fuel economy when running in gas mode below even the original 2011 Volt.

Speed, climate control and temperature really affect a PHEVs performance, my 2013 does excellent in warm to hot weather on slower speed roads. Depending on how much slower roads you can fit in your 100 mile trip summer time might be mostly EV even on a Gen 1 Volt.
Gotta crunch your specific situation.

That said if you only drive 85mph you probably need to get a Prime

Good Luck

 

[Don]

When we needed something with a longer range to go with our pair of 2012's, we got a '17 Volt Premier. It has all the bells and whistles . . . . ACC which I'll never be without again, emergency high speed braking, which has already saved my butt once, LKA, the cross vehicle alert when you're backing, the sensors which light up the side mirrors when someone is in your blind spot . . . . it's all there

The Gen 2 Volts do 50 to 70 miles on battery alone and get right at 45 mpg when running on gas, so even when you've exhausted the battery, you're still not using much gas. In my book, it's better in many ways than a pure long range EV because recharging is optional, not mandatory and that eliminates what can be a real hassle many times

Don

 

[rmay635703]

Oh I agree Don, that is why I bought a 2013 Volt back in the day, I do 1 or 2 4000 mile trips out west every year and I loath carrying more extra cars so Volt it was, even if there were EV highways , it still would have been very troublesome making the trip without a PHEV, any charging is a bonus with the Volt but not necessity.

The Gen 2 Volt gets the same summer fuel economy as a Gen 2 Prius and can get very high EV marks in the right hands, out of the choices it’s the safest bet if your going for a newer car with a lot of highway driving in the mix.

 

[PV1]

I want to say the C-Max Energi has both electric and engine heat but haven't confirmed personally (the dash shows climate power up to 5 kW which the A/C never pulls anywhere near that). The conventional hybrid only has engine heat, but the engine runs fairly often anyway.

I don't know about Gen 2 Volts, but the Gen 1 Volt will run the engine when it's cold out, but I don't know about the Energi.

Volt will likely go better in the snow, so a gen 2 will likely be your best bet unless you want pure EV.

 

[DougC]

Sounds like a newer Volt is my best bet.

There is a 2018 at a local dealer for just over $30K. That's for employee discount with a current lease. I can get employee discount through my brother in law but don't have a gm lease. Not sure the trim level for that either. But with the federal rebate it would be around $23000

My co-worker has a relative that works at the dealer. Might get with him and see what the bottom line would be.

 

[DougC]

Just checked, it's an LT trim. $34,755 msrp, sale price $28,688 with employee discount and $1500 for existing lease. The only options are comfort package and interior protection package

I need to learn more about the model options. But that looks Iike a very good price.

 

[PV1]

Comfort package gives you heated mirrors, heated front seats, and heated Leather steering wheel. Interior protection package includes all-weather floor mats and cargo mat.

Besides the Confidence package (rear parking sensors, cross-traffic alert, blind spot monitor), the only remaining options are winter/summer package (carpeted and all-weather floor mats) and blackout package (different wheels, sport pedals, and black bowties).

What color?

 

[rmay635703]

If your going new be aware that the 2019 Volt is already out so steep discounts should be possible, also the 2019 may be within a few $100 of the 18 if you get a good dealer plus 19’s offer 7.2kw charging, on the off chance something changes and you can find a charger that works that is a game changer.

Good Luck

 

[Don]

You must buy the Premier package to get ACC and only ACC equipped cars have high speed emergency braking - Those were a must for me. For 2019, Premier models get the 7.2Kw charger, but I *think* if you're special ordering your LT, it may be an extra cost option, but special ordering any car usually costs you more than any deal you'll get by buying something the dealer already has on his lot

We bought our '17 used because we don't qualify for much if any of the federal $7,500 credit and the good news there is that much like our iMiEV's, used Volts can be found at really good prices. Our car had 20K on the clock when we got it and the window sticker was $41,850 and we paid $25K. If you're buying used and want ACC, it wasn't available on any 2016's and only on 2017's manufactured after about June of 2016. The ACC is only a $600 option on a Premier, but the car must have both DC1 and DC2, which most Gen2 Premiers seem to come with anyway

Added incentive - If you have an ACC equipped Gen 2 Volt, for about $500 you can modify it to be self driving

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDtaOe4WXZo

Don

 

[DougC]

Hi Don,

Please elaborate on what the ACC / emergency braking is and why I need it.

Thanks!

 

[Don]

ACC is Adaptive Cruise Control and since it's only a $600 option on a Volt Premier, it really doesn't make much sense to buy a Volt without it - The automatic high speed emergency braking that comes with it can save you 10 times that much in ten seconds. Unfortunately, it's not available on Volts with LT trim

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/157172-what-is-adaptive-cruise-control-and-how-does-it-work

I suspect it's on it's way to eventually becoming standard on every car sold, much like back up cameras are now - Maybe in 10 years or so. For me, I would much rather buy a used Volt with ACC than a new LT without it for the same money, but then I've never been big on paying the premium to buy brand new anyway - You typically lose 25 to 35% in depreciation the very first year

Don

 

[JoeS]

Joining this party rather late ...

DougC, in re-reading your comments I was confused as to how many dollars you were willing to commit to this purchase.

In the last 30 years I've only bought two new cars, the i-MiEV and a Gen1 Honda Insight. I'm a firm believer in letting someone else take the depreciation $$ hit.

In keeping with this thread's title and considering only BEVs (ICE bing a dirty word), my vote would be to buy the cheapest non-salvage non-accident Tesla you can find. I've recently seen some nice-looking ones for under $40K, and I have to wonder how many of those are up for sale by owners who just bought a Model 3? Used Tesla prices take steep dips for no autopilot or different autopilot versions, differing battery capacities, single vs. dual motor, with perhaps the biggest factor for low price being whether it's gone past its initial 50,000 mile warranty. Seems Tesla owners are petrified of this milestone and "fear of the unknown". Every used Tesla I've ever looked at was beautifully maintained.

Absent that, a pure BEV with range to meet your requirements ("I'm going to need 100+ miles of highway a couple times a week") narrows the field to the Bolt, the latest Leaf, and perhaps RAV4-EV (the one with the Tesla drivetrain). Used Bolts are slowly coming on the market, but few are under $30K.

If you're buying new, the pecking order for a BEV to meet your needs, (at this moment in time) is -

Tesla
Bolt
Leaf
The next-gen cars such as the Hyundai Kona EV or Kia Niro EV aren't here yet...

If you must go hybrid, I'd reluctantly settle for -

Volt
Honda Clarity
Prius Prime

BTW, I've talked three friends into getting the Bolt, and they all love it, as do all my friends who bought a Tesla Model 3. Who doesn't love their BEVs?

 

[rmay635703]

Joining this party rather late ...

DougC, in re-reading your comments I was confused as to how many dollars you were willing to commit to this purchase.

In keeping with this thread's title and considering only BEVs (ICE bing a dirty word), my vote would be to buy the cheapest non-salvage non-accident Tesla you can find. I've recently seen some nice-looking ones for under $40K

Used Tesla prices take steep dips for no autopilot or different autopilot versions, differing battery capacities, single vs. dual motor, with perhaps the biggest factor for low price being whether it's gone past its initial 50,000 mile warranty. Seems Tesla owners are petrified of this milestone and "fear of the unknown".

BTW, I've talked three friends into getting the Bolt, and they all love it, as do all my friends who bought a Tesla Model 3. Who doesn't love their BEVs?

Being petrified of warranty expirations on Tesla’s are just as warranted as BMW owners fear of the same.

If something breaks out of warranty on a TSLA it can be a painful maze of delays.

Tesla is a rich mans car with rich man repairs.
Heck even salvage yard parts for a Tesla are overpriced.

Definitely a car where an extended warranty is actually worthwhile.

As for Model S folks trading up to Model 3 that isn’t really a huge thing either, many keep the S and the 3 is a second car, others avoid the 3 altogether

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/05/tesla-model-3-vs-cpo-tesla-model-s-owner-perspective/

 

[Don]

As to whether to buy an extended range EV or something like a Volt, Clarity, Plug in Prius etc, much depends on how and where you would use the car. After more than 6 years, we love our EV's, but getting something for extended range travels, we had to evaluate where we live, where we travel and what support is available

Since we do virtually all of our local driving in the iMiEV's, whatever we buy would largely be a garage queen when we're not traveling and do I really want a $50K Tesla sitting in my garage unused for months at a time depreciating? I decided I did not. To my way of thinking, there are two methods for long range EV travels - Those which use the Tesla network of chargers which are nearly everywhere and have enough stations at each one that you're pretty much guaranteed of getting a quick charge without a long wait . . . . and every other EV out there which can't use the Tesla network

A quote made by Joe in another thread praising the Bolt bought by a relative - " . . . . he's made a successful 800-mile round-trip down to the SF Bay Area to visit his daughter in it - but what a hassle fraught with unknowns and and a few slower (25kW) chargers . . . . " - Keep in mind that this is travelling up and down the I-5 corridor, one of the best supported EV routes in the country. It's much worse everywhere else

So, no $50K Tesla and no interest in a $25K, 100K mile used Tesla and not wanting the hassle of the more sparse charging facilities available elsewhere, and specifically in our neck of the woods, we ruled out the other EV options.
Instead, we looked at other longer range cars where recharging was an option to be considered when it's convenient and not a necessity to be able to go at all - We settled on a Volt and so far, we're pretty happy with it. We do find an excuse to drive it locally once in a while (twice or three time a month) but other than the 1,000 mile trip to bring it home, we haven't put 500 miles on it in the 6 months we've owned it - The iMiEV's are just too darned good at what they do, and why would you want to park a $25K car in the WalMart parking lot (or anywhere else?) when you have two perfectly capable cars which make that trip easier and less expensive, so the Volt pretty much sits in the garage . . . . but then, that's what we expected when we bought it

I really do like driving the most practical vehicle for the task at hand, even though it means paying insurance on 4 cars. We have a little Ford Transit Connect van that we travel in when we're taking our Segways and other cargo along and it also has a trailer hitch for those trips to Lowes to trailer home heavy, bulky items - It too sits in the garage for months at a time . . . . we've racked up only 12,000 miles on it in 3 years, but since 95% of those are freeway miles, it's averaging nearly 29 mpg for us

Every vehicle is a compromise - None of them can do it all . . . . oh, the guys driving F-150's all think their truck can, but one of my prerequisites is not burning ANY gas around town . . . . :mrgreen:

Don

 

[kiev]

i talked with a 2018 Leaf owner yesterday, it is a much better looking car than the previous version--looks like a regular Nissan with sporty lines with a huge storage area under the rear hatch. i'll be looking for a used one to replace the miev when the time comes.

He said it has a 40 kWh pack with EPA range of 150 miles, and the previous day he went 119 miles to birmingham running the heater (for the gf comfort) at interstate speeds with 2 bars to spare. Pretty impressive.

So if Chademo stations are available within 120 miles then long trips are feasible with the new Leaf. i forgot to ask about pack cooling etc, although he mentioned there was a pack heater option for the cold winter regions.

 

[JoeS]

So, DougC, what did you finally settle on?

We're up in Medford (came up a few days ago for Thanksgiving to get away from that choking smoke in the SF Bay Area) and I was talking with my brother-in-law who loves his Bolt and recounted how he now despises going to gas stations... :roll:

As a sidenote regarding Tesla costs (remember, zero Supercharger 'fuel' cost), after 60,000 miles of my ownership (the car has 90,000 miles on it and has never been in for 'service') I just had my fourth expense (the first being a cabin air filter for $7.50, the second being the windshield wipers which I have yet to install): yesterday I bought two Michelin Primacy tires for little more than what the i-MiEV's cost. As my final expense, one of the Tesla's taillights had somehow been punctured, which a piece of transparent Gorilla tape is still holding together just fine. A nice clean junkyard replacement $45 light is waiting for me to install. Still waiting for the shoe to drop... :roll: Yes, I did knock on wood!