Cost to drive a car

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Don

Well-known member
Joined
May 10, 2012
Messages
3,108
Location
Biloxi MS
AAA says it now costs $9K per year to drive a car and get this . . . . they say maintenance costs are the single biggest expense - Above the cost of insurance, gas or even depreciation

http://t.autos.msn.com/news/aaa-driving-a-car-costs-dollar9k-a-year

I knew we were saving a bunch on gas . . . . but it appears our 'maintenance friendly' little gem is saving us even more than we knew!

Golly, I feel like I oughta run right out to the garage and change the oil just so she knows how much I appreciate her :lol:

Don
 
Today I got my Audi A5 convertible out of its winter break. back from the shop I Paid 350 for small service including oil change and 100 Swiss franc for Diesel.

That is when it daunt on me how many kilometers I can drive with the i using ~450 USD of electricity !

Don't do the math, here is a multiple choice, lets see who gets it right intuitively :

A) about 5000 km / 3000 miles
B) more than 10000 km / 6000 miles
C) more than 20000 km /12000 miles
 
OK, 'tis true that maintenance costs on an ICE can be very significant.

I love our new MiEV, but still come out with an analysis that economically over the next 10 years we'd likely come out lower cost per mile keeping our fully paid for 2005 low miles (80,000 on it) Toyota Corolla. That is, unless gasoline -- "petrol" for our UK cousins ;) -- goes up to about $7 per gallon OR replacement battery costs go dramatically down from current official Mitsu pricing.
And remember we each had a big upfront investment of a bundle of cash (the price difference between buying, say, a base model Honda Fit or Nissan Versa new and a new MiEV -- let alone a costly Leaf, that rightly should be spread forward as part of out cost per mile.

I used a base model Honda Fit or Nissan Versa as in my view they are comparable in size, arguably possibly even richer in features, certainly have more power and of course better range than a MiEV or a LEAF.
I seriously doubt AAA's figure of 4.97 cents per mile on average for maintenance costs on an ICE is realistic for any of us here (I bet many of us are "change my own oil and spark plugs, and don't take the ICE in to the dealer and pay them $300 for some arbitrary "official 30,000 mile service.)
I know I've not spent anywhere close to that on the 2004 Toyota we just gave to our grandson, or even on our 2001 Subaru Forester. And watch out for their word "average."
In the preface to my statistics text book in college it said something like this:
"When using the techniques of statistical analysis, always remember the story of the statistician who drowned attempting to wade across a creek that had an average depth of only 10 centimeters." ;)

Problem with the miles per kilowatt hour cost analysis without adding our hidden elephant-in-the-room uncertain large lump sum maintenance cost (the "someday either battery replacement cost of huge depreciation hit on selling a 10 year old car with maybe only 40-mile range with by-then-obsolete-battery technology") may be kidding ourselves.

So IMO in truth we can't know our cost to drive our Eva’s per mile or kilometer is or how it compares to owning a "comparable" ICE until we see what future costs of gasoline are (and to a less extent future costs of electricity which will go up) and battery replacement costs/depreciation.

That all said, I have several factors that counter my less than optimistic analysis of this:
# It’s FUN to drive.
# It’s voting with our dollars for a better way of doing things than ICE transport
# It does reduce our dependence on overseas oil.
# It is likely on net somewhat reducing global warming.
# Because we have 30 solar panels our EV is even a bit closer to true zero emission and we’re protected against rises in costs of electricity.
# I feel like I’ve so-to-speak “purchased insurance against having to deal with $8/gallon prices showing up at the pumps in the next decade.”
# I feel like I’ve purchased insurance against dealing with long long lines or rationing at the gas pumps in the next decade or two.
(I don’t consider these last two unlikely possibilities. Nor, if either happens the reality that at that time prices of EVs would shoot up dramatically and there would be huge waiting lists of buyers.)

Alex
 
Ok, I get to C).

Please correct me if my math or data are inaccurate.

I used the estimates of Swiss Touring club TCS which had given a cost of ~2USD for 100 km.

Then 450USD would give 450x100 then divided by 2, which is roughly 20'000 km.

I fully agree with Alex's remark on the unknown battery replacement cost. I am not planning at selling this car before a very long time, therefore I even made a rust proofing treatment with Waxoyl to aim at a very long term ownership even if it role might be to take the garbage to the recycling plant or transport the plants for the garden... Even with a short 40 mile range, it is likely to be an interesting alternative.

Actually my wife got a shock when I said that the iMiev could be our last car :twisted:
 
I ran across this blurb, which links to the original article:

Study Finds E-Drive Cars Less Expensive to Own Than ICE-Age Models By Next Decade

What struck my funnybone is the choice of words: "ICE Age" :lol:

(ICE = Infernal Combustion Engine)

Hey, I think electric cars are less expensive NOW! Especially with Mitsu's $10K rebate, we need less time to amortize our lovely iMiEV. Dang, I can rationalize the amortization of my 6.6kW solar PV using the car and rationalize the car using my solar PV. Wow, my pockets are bulging... :mrgreen:

I'm slated to be on a panel for an Electric Vehicle discussion at a public meeting hosted by a local green organization next month. Can't wait to use that phrase. :p
 
JoeS said:


Hi Joe!

Hey, when I clicked on the hyperlink you provided it does take me to
http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=30879
And the header of that site's page is there.
But where I expect to see the article is just blank white.

Does that hyperlink work for anyone?

Same thing happened when I googled the phrase
E-Drive Cars Less Expensive to Own Than ICE-Age Models By Next Decade .

Got several different hits, all of which ultimately took me to what looks like the same not properly loading or defective page.
Alex

Note added here using this forum's "edit" feature:
Tried browsing there using Google Chrome for a browser instead of Internet Explorer 10,
and am able to read the article. Obviously issue is between the site and my IE, not the URL or the site as such.
 
PV1 said:
Either people have a false impression on how much electricity an EV uses, or don't realize how much energy their house uses.

I've taught a few classes on sustainability in the home. Most people don't know what a kWh is, how much it costs, or how many they use. They just pay the dollar amount, and wonder why it's so high this month.... :cry:

Most people don't believe spending more up front can save them big money over the life-cycle. I had one class for fifth graders, heavily attended by their parents. I had been asked to show the kids why CFLs were better than incandescent bulbs. Of course I showed them the life-cycle costs of a house full of incandescents vs. CFLs vs. LEDs for a mortgage period. I then asked how many of them wanted to get a driver's license as soon as they were able. Every hand shot up. I then repeated the exercise with a $17k ICE car getting 25mpg, a $24k hybrid getting 50 mpg, or a $30k BEV getting 100 mpge. The kids looked at historic trends and decided the average price of gasoline for the next 10 years would be $5/gal and electricity would be $0.12/kWh. Using averages of 15,000 miles per year and 10 year ownership costs, we did a quick cost analysis (easy math since the mpg estimates double with each step upward though I pointed out the cost difference at 100 mpg vs. 100 mpge). The parents gasped when they heard how many kWh were required, but were shocked when they found out how much less it would cost. I then pointed out how they currently pay below the national average for electricity, and that electric car prices were continuing to drop. I got more questions from the parents than the kids.

We'll have to wait and see if their guess for fuel and electricity costs is valid or not.
 
Mart said:
The parents gasped when they heard how many kWh were required, but were shocked when they found out how much less it would cost...


This is great advertising Mart! I think more people would buy if they understood this concept. Even the mpge is deceptive. It’s hard to get the true picture. In small print on the window sticker under the mpge it says “30kwhr/100 mi”. That’s the number to work with. That’s the worst case cost (for me) that I like to play games with.

Recently a co-worker came up to me and noticed my weird looking car. He asked “What kind of mileage do you get from that?” In order to get his attention I said “Let me think. I am getting about 176 mpg today”. Of course that shocked him. I then had to explain it’s fully electric; and no- there’s no gas engine; no- there’s no gas; nada. It’s all electric. To put it in perspective I asked “What does your truck get”. He said 15mpg. I said “For $3.30 you can travel 15 miles. Well for that same $3.30, I can travel 176 miles. So I must be getting 176 mpg”

This is what’s going on in my calculator: 0.3KWhr/mile at $0.0625/kWHr in Idaho Falls; thus 1.875¢/mile worst case driving my electric car. I actually get closer to 1.5¢/mile. Note: no matter what their mileage is, I’ll always get 176/mpg. That’s why it’s fun to ask them their gas mileage (it means nothing but a comparison). My formula is (price of gas/gal) ÷ (0.3kWhr/mil) ÷ (Utility rate in kWhr) = (a fun perspective of mpg). So as the cost of gas goes up, I get ‘better’ mpg!

Have fun teaching!
-Barry
 
That's one of the problems of using MPGe, is that it's based on the EPA equivalent of 33.7 kWh / U.S. gallon of regular (87 octane) gasoline. Most people are more concerned with a cost per gallon equivalent which changes daily. FWIW, Europe and the US also have different methods for determining octane. People think in terms of MPG rather than GPM. People think in terms of "It costs $x to fill my tank." People will ask you, "What's the range on your electric car?". They can't answer, "What's the range of your gasoline powered car?". Almost no one does a cost per mile calculation. You almost have to get their MPG and tell them, "It costs you $x to travel 100 miles, and it only costs me $y to go that far. Of course, I don't have any oil changes either."

Just got back from the big box orange store buying a Philips LED to replace the old CFL in the kitchen ceiling fixture. I ended up helping a couple buy an LED. They don't think in terms of lumens, CRI, or degrees K, that is, light quality. They think in terms of energy usage as being equal to amount of light: 65 watts in the can light, 100 watts in the ceiling fixture. I think people should have different information and mindsets to make informed decisions. Most people just need to know they can get in the car and go where they want, or flip the switch and have ample light that isn't too harsh.
 
How does one deal with clueless innumerates? Reminds me of an inane conversation I once had where I was touting the 80mpg my Insight regularly gets on the highway, to which the F250 owner responded proudly that, that's nothing, he gets over 1000mies in his customized truck! :?

I really wish DOE had not started the artificial MPGe metric and instead simply adopted kWh. On this forum, we had this discussion a couple of years ago about MPG equivalence where I utilized $$ as the common denominator. Pick your electricity cost and pick your gasoline cost and end up with MPG$
Using EPA Monroney sticker numbers: http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=923#p923
which I subsequently updated using measured data http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3710#p3710

OMG, off topic again :cry:
 
Many people ask me how much it costs to drive our car. I usually reply the electricity costs about two and a half cents per mile

That usually elicts a puzzled look, so I offer the comparison that if their 30 mpg car is burning $3 gas, they are spending ten cents per mile . . . . not counting oil changes and maintenance which I don't have. You almost always get an "I understood" look from that comparison. Then, I offer that if they're driving a 15 mpg pick-up, the cost is twenty cents per mile and if gas costs them more than $3 their costs are proportionally higher

This usually results in a "Wow!" . . . . or something similar. Few, if any realize how little energy an EV uses and how little it costs

If the discussion goes any further, I point out the real problem with burning gasoline for transportation is that only about 20% of the energy you pay for is actually used to move the car - Most of the rest goes up in wasted heat

Don
 
One problem is...electricity here in NYC is about 26 cents per kwh in normal months. I haven't checked my mid-winter bills yet, but they say our rates are up about another 15-20% due to rising prices of natural gas used to generate electricity. Combine that with using heat in stop and go traffic and my costs begin to approach that of a 25 mpg ICE. And my realistic range using minimal heat drops to just under 50 miles.

...the price we pay for being early adopters.
 
fjpod, 26cents/kWh is awful as a normal rate! Do you have any time-of-use metering or EV-rate options and are you subject to tiered rates?

BTW, y'all may have noticed that I moved a number of our posts over to here - a little more in line with our discussion ;)
 
We pay between 35 cents to 50 cents a kWh in Hawaii for residential power. No time of use. Difference in pricing is based on the island that you live on.
 
JoeS said:
fjpod, 26cents/kWh is awful as a normal rate! Do you have any time-of-use metering or EV-rate options and are you subject to tiered rates?

BTW, y'all may have noticed that I moved a number of our posts over to here - a little more in line with our discussion ;)
I inquired about that, and I was told No by a ConEdison spokesperson. He said something like, "Why should all the other rate payers subsidize your driving".

The only time of use plan available in NYC is one in which they lower your night rate, BUT, they increase your day rate...so if you cannot shift a significant part of your normal daily usage to nighttime, you can actually pay more. In my analysis, it would have cost me more to go on a time of use plan. What am I gonna do, turn off the heat, A/C and refrigerator in my house during the day?

NYC is not seriously addressing the issue of EV driving. Our previous mayor (Bloomberg) was quoted somewhere as saying that they were not looking to make it less expensive for new EV drivers because afterall, the early adopters can readily afford it. So...no special rates, no public access to EV charging, no tax breaks, etc. All we are getting away with, for the moment, is not paying gasoline taxes...but I guess I am paying a bit more Utility tax.
 
olagon said:
We pay between 35 cents to 50 cents a kWh in Hawaii for residential power. No time of use. Difference in pricing is based on the island that you live on.
somebody's always got it worse...but look at all that sunshine you guys have.
 
fjpod said:
olagon said:
We pay between 35 cents to 50 cents a kWh in Hawaii for residential power. No time of use. Difference in pricing is based on the island that you live on.
somebody's always got it worse...but look at all that sunshine you guys have.

Yet HECO is trying to limit solar pv installations.
http://www.rightsidenews.com/2013122533648/life-and-science/energy-and-environment/sunny-hawaii-highlights-challenges-of-solar-adoption.html
 
olagon said:
We pay between 35 cents to 50 cents a kWh in Hawaii for residential power. No time of use. Difference in pricing is based on the island that you live on.
Hawaiian Electric Company, which supplies electricity for the most populous island by far, Oahu, does offer time-of-use (TOU) rates for entire residences or for separately-metered EV charging circuits. In both cases, the peak rate is higher than the standard rate, so if one cannot easily move electricity usage to non-peak hours, the total bill would be higher than with the standard rate. But for EV charging, in many cases, charging during non-peak hours (e.g., during the night) would be the usual situation, so the EV TOU rate would save about 6¢/kWh over the standard rate. That reduces the high cost of Hawaii electricity somewhat, but the cost/distance for my i-MiEV is still higher than that for my very fuel-efficient Honda Insight hybrid when only fuel costs are considered.

I have been trying since last July to get a building permit that would allow me to install a separate metered circuit to charge my i-MiEV in my condo parking space under the EV TOU rate, but the very political, who-you-know-trumps-all Honolulu building department has so far found reason after reason to deny my building permit. I shudder to think what my electrical contractor will charge me for this installation considering how much time he has had to spend attempting to get a building permit. The cost of the charging station including installation needs to be considered when figuring the cost of driving an EV, especially when one resides where parking is not adjacent to one's home (e.g., in an apartment or condo complex).
 
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