Battery pack change plans

[MickeyS70]

Today it also complained about BMU 09 saying it was abnormal but the cell values all seem to be ok car works with no ECU orange car symbol - perhaps left over from before?

However still have worries about the front control battery so will order a new one and be done with it.

I have seen different cell voltages reported when using HobDrive vs CanIon, but the DCTs do match with a 100mV difference on some cells on CMU9, just a warning though, the car will be able to correct this over (a long) time.

The power supply warnings are probably because your ‘dodgy’ OBC isn’t boosting the Aux voltage to 14.4V and therefore not charging the 12V battery either. Not sure how long this has been going on but I agree it’s time for a new one, fully charge it before installation and top it up regularly if the OBC can’t do it.

 

[michael8554]

Coolant - according to the Service Manual:

"DIA QUEEN SUPER LONG LIFE COOLANT PREMIUM or equivalent*"
*similar high quality ethylene glycol based non-silicate, non-amine, non-nitrate and non-borate coolant with long life hybrid organic acid technology.
5.1L (including 1.1 L in the radiator condenser tank)
30% Concentration

In the UK I bought 1L of a supposedly compatible fluid for a top up:
"Mannol 4115 AF13++ Concentrated High Performance Coolant Fluid"

This is pink in colour, I vaguely remember reading the proper stuff is green ?

A Mitsubishi branded coolant is available in 5L for about £50 already diluted.

 

[alviseven]

Managed to get to MOT station today and the car passed which is marvellous news so am fully legal and can get on with testing more.

However chademo is now charging up battery nicely and have put brand new and fully charged front battery on the car.

On the way to the MOT rapidly the car went into tortise mode and the battery readout went blank but as I knew I had at least half battery and the MOT station was not for carried on. Chademo first and read the battery readings and the car complains about CMU 09 battery - these seem to vary as the hobdrive is connected but settles on readings where the readings are all within about 0.05V
Clear the DTC and after a chademo it sorts it out for about 200 yrds max before the battery orange light comes on and the battery dial goes blank and tortoise comes on but car still works but only at 30mph max. B and C modes do not regen either.

Next job is to get the 2015 charger OBC off the spares car and then see if when fitted to the running car will it work.

However if I have missed anything simple... surely this is the next job - the current fitted OBC still drops out very rapidly and will not charge but the chademo is working fine. Know that chademo does not use the obc so this must be not happy with something.

MOT is major success for the day

 

[frank1]

my obc used to drop out when the battery was low, its behaved impeccably the last month or 2 tho, the previous owner used dc charge apparently and i think the cells got out of sync, my 6a charging every day appears to have balanced them now

 

[alviseven]

Battery under drive seems odd - when first put in about 7 miles ago now it worked fine to the chademo for the first 2 miles no tortoise and normal road speed. On way home it did give me a battery symbol but this went when I reset the ignition.
Out for the MOT the tortoise came on almost immediately at the bottom of drive and same on way home and after each chademo. Just been a mile up the road and the car seems to get about four jolts in the power almost like something gets disconnected and then reconnects and after about third of fourth jolt the battery light comes on and tortoise is back.
Just looking into CMU pack 09 again with hobdrive and looking at the data I had for this pack when it was in the donor car. beginning to wonder if I have one look power connection or on dead cell in this pack

 

[MickeyS70]

What DCTs are you getting when the turtle light/battery symbol comes on?

 

[alviseven]

What DCTs are you getting when the turtle light/battery symbol comes on?

look tomorrow

 

[alviseven]

look tomorrow

Three dtc come up same ones I've had before
P1A7E cmu09 battery sensor abnormal
P1A33 CMU09 cell voltage sensor error
P1A39 charging state signal error
Still get this jolt too especially when I press accelerator harder but not trying to boy race just get away normal

Got donor car OBC unit off going to try fitting this and see if it works.

Fingers and everything else crossed

 

[MickeyS70]

Three dtc come up same ones I've had before
P1A7E cmu09 battery sensor abnormal
P1A33 CMU09 cell voltage sensor error
P1A39 charging state signal error
Still get this jolt too especially when I press accelerator harder but not trying to boy race just get away normal

Got donor car OBC unit off going to try fitting this and see if it works.

Fingers and everything else crossed

Looks like one of the cell voltages on CMU9 is dropping below 3V when under load and has recovered by the time you look at their voltage, it doesn’t help if balancing is also off by 100mV.

But you’re right, sort out the OBC issue first.

 

[alviseven]

OBC progress
think it is a case of two steps forward and three steps backwards today.

Removed the OBC from the donor car which according to my vendor was working when it stopped being used due to the ecu issue. However this car was a non brick type connector charger cable and not one with the black block and three little LED indicators. Before I took the battery off I did try to charge the donor car and the lead did recognise but nothing happened.

Have removed the OBC from the donor car - removed the fluid from the rear reservoir and then collected a smaller amount from the U bend pipe between the two boxes on the rear and did not really lose a drop. Certainly between the two cars have managed to have more than enough to have some spare fluid and be able to top up the repairs.

The 2011 charger I was removing seems to work but drops out with a battery orange car fault after about two mins once the second fan comes on and then when I restart it drops out almost immediately.

The donor car with the non brick type charge lead despite being a 2010 registered car has a 2015 dated OBC - I have fitted this to the running car and have completed wiring it up. It is absolutely identical in terms of the connections and fitments but the little boxes on the top are not present like on the old 2011 car - think someone said these were EBC box with capacitors.

So two steps forward and rather pleased to have broken into the coolant system and made all good again. Even painted the chassis elements around the OBC whilst it was out even if it was a little rough and quick!

Three steps back however

Plugged the batteries back in - orange plug and front battery and plugged in the brick type car charger lead and the car does not ever recognise the fact that the lead has been plugged in.

Disappointed is an understatement but ...

Do I now try the non brick type charge lead which came with the donor car and see if that works in the hope that the OBC is actually matched to it?
Do not suppose I can do much damage to the unit anyway and if it were to work - bingo?
Did take some film of the exercise I will edit into a short film in due course as it was scary but actually quite easy especially when compared to the battery pack work done recently

 

[alviseven]

Looks like one of the cell voltages on CMU9 is dropping below 3V when under load and has recovered by the time you look at their voltage, it doesn’t help if balancing is also off by 100mV.

But you’re right, sort out the OBC issue first.

yes there are about three cells which seem to be low and variable but they all come back to about the same voltage as the others - they cannot be lose since I never disconnected the individual cells but could the BMS boards be lose connected and need tightening? Now I know how the pack comes out this is not a massive task and have spare cells now to try to drop into this pack maybe.

Would this issue be enough to make the OBC drop out from charging so maybe I am barking up the wrong tree and my original OBC is possibly ok and then might be all ok? Too may ifs in there!

 

[MickeyS70]

yes there are about three cells which seem to be low and variable but they all come back to about the same voltage as the others - they cannot be lose since I never disconnected the individual cells but could the BMS boards be lose connected and need tightening?

Just measure the individual cells inside CMU09 block, if their voltage is identical then suspect the connections to the CMU board, if some of them are 100mV apart, bench balancing may be the way to go.

Now I know how the pack comes out this is not a massive task and have spare cells now to try to drop into this pack maybe.

I would strongly advise against putting some old cells into the new pack.

Would this issue be enough to make the OBC drop out from charging so maybe I am barking up the wrong tree and my original OBC is possibly ok and then might be all ok? Too may ifs in there!

Interesting point, clear the DTCs and start charging, if below CMU errors come back than it’s not a coincidence:
P1A7E cmu09 battery sensor abnormal
P1A33 CMU09 cell voltage sensor error
If they only appear during driving when putting the foot down, suspect the OBC.

Do I now try the non brick type charge lead which came with the donor car and see if that works in the hope that the OBC is actually matched to it? Do not suppose I can do much damage to the unit anyway and if it were to work - bingo?

Yes, no harm in trying but not much hope this will work.
I have a hunch that the 2015 OBC was modified to work with the 2010 car as it ignores the CP signal altogether, below is what your car expects


I would compare the two OBCs, in particular look for any differences from the plug E03 pin 9 leading to the innards of the OBC..

 

[alviseven]

Yes, no harm in trying but not much hope this will work.
I have a hunch that the 2015 OBC was modified to work with the 2010 car as it ignores the CP signal altogether, below is what your car expects


I would compare the two OBCs, in particular look for any differences from the plug E03 pin 9 leading to the innards of the OBC..

Tried the non brick charge lead on the "working" car and all lit up and started to think about charging but drops out exactly the same so

Either both chargers are broken the same way

Or the CMU issue is causing the problem since before it was taken apart CMU 09 did not throw up issues with this battery pack it was a different one.

Still at least the back end got a lick of paint and the work today was not all lost. Looks like the charger was modified to work on the earlier car.
Does this mean that this charger will only work with red BMS boards too?

 

[alviseven]

Could my charger be modified back to accept a brick?

 

[kiev]

Or the charging cable with no EVSE controller has been damaged and no longer works. As i understand it that cable has embedded resistors in the handle and plug to measure temperature and provide for the protocol handshake, etc.

 

[coulomb]

Could my charger be modified back to accept a brick?

I'm dubious that a 2015 On Board Charger can operate without an EVSE (black brick). I've never heard of such a modification, though I guess it must be possible. I have heard that some of the 2010 On Board Chargers can work with or without the brick.

It's possible that the 2010 has to work with a battery with "red" CMUs, and matching BMU. But October 2010 may be just late enough that the charger isn't one of the older ones. I think that the older ones that don't need a brick are the ones with the several small Waffle Pads™. So I'm fairly convinced that both of your On Board Chargers are compatible with the two vehicles.

I like the CMU09 theory, i.e. fix that issue and both chargers may be working.

 

[alviseven]

Been out tonight for a short run after it fired up with no battery fault. Cannot cancel the DTC or at least I can but they instantly return but did manage to get a 3 miles journey today without the battery symbol coming on but I did accelerate really slowly - still managed 40mph plus at times but was very careful. Battery code came on at the very end as I put car away but at least we managed to turn 89K miles a target I thought the car would never reach.
Going to try dropping the pack and see what is going on with CMU09 as I get consistent variable voltages with cells D G E and perhaps others - perhaps I have been stupid and left the screws loose or not fully tight but guessing I shall find nothing wrong but at least I can measure the voltages directly.

 

[alviseven]

Finished editing this now about obc removal
Shame it did nor work but think it's the cmu which is stopping it.

Does anyone know if there is any difference in obc output between what red and green cmu boards need. Am I likely to damage my green cmu boards with this charger or is it just the input lead protocols and I think the ability of the layer brick type chargers to take 16amp as well as 13amp input currents.

I assume that my current red cmu charger if it works will only charge at the slower 13amp rate and nay not charge off the house faster charger

 

[kiev]

Excellent video. Great instructions especially showing how the connectors get released.

The output of an OBC is just a HV DC that gets routed directly to the main pack + and - thru the main contactors inside the pack.

There is no direct connection between any CMU boards and the OBC. CMUs talk to the BMU thru the Battery CAN Buss. The BMU then communicates cell voltages, temperatures and status with the EV-ECU over the Vehicle CAN buss.

The OBC talks to the EV-ECU over the Vehicle CAN Buss.

Can you get a readout of the DTCs and post them up here? Might give some clues.

 

[MickeyS70]

I’m still not convinced the CMU issue is preventing the charging:

- Vehicle detection is done via the PP signal that goes to the EV-ECU not OBC, (post #24) your 2010 car doesn’t recognise the ‘brick’ granny but the one without

- your 2010 car was running with a 2015 OBC that (in stock configuration) requires a valid CP signal but seems to ignore it when connected with the direct lead (allows for 13A charging only)

- the CMU issue allows you to drive the car in general but with some power limitations due to low cells

My hunch is that your ‘brick’ charger is faulty and the EV-ECU of your 2012 car isn’t configured to accept a direct lead charge, therefore I suggest to plug the car into your house EVSE and see what happens…