Battery pack change plans

[alviseven]

Not been brave enough to have the pack off yet but that is the next job - my car seems to have been a coventry council owned car for most of its life as all its MOT history up to about 2020 was MOT tested by coventry council garage however it is white with a vinyl wrapped black bonnet - the quoted vin number from the door post matches the HA3W 0001622 quoted on the V5 and the door post so it is not short of numbers as far as I can see. It does only charge from a 13amp UK plug direct to the charge socket.
Batterys - the "spare" car cost me 700GBP and not the sort of money others are quoting for new cells which is beyond me and it was either scrap a lovely working car or buy secondhand batteries and hope that I could find enough between the two packs to get a better range - not looking for 100 miles (LoL) just a useable reliable range that is known and can be worked with and preferably more than about 28 tops!
This weekend is the grand plan to start - white new car pack out first then be brave and get the working car pack out and go from there. Do I need to get the working car batteries to about the same point of charge as the spare pack as I could use the black car a little more to flatten them a little more to match them or just leave as is and work it out as we go along? Cannot currently charge the black car anyway so hmmmm think it is the pack which now semi dead! it plugs in and starts charging then drops out with a battery fault after a few minutes - started to do this when about 1/3 empty for a while but eventually ti would charge to about 3/4 full and we would carry on
Not too near a chademo to try that would be flat once I got there and zero to get home on if the chademo would not charge!
Really grateful for all the replies it gives me confidence to try - used to vintage motors not modern electronics!

 

[alviseven]

Think the full number on the plate might be ZAA HA3W LDD 0001622 which certainly has 17 digits but this full number is not on the rear inner wing or the V5 and is on two lines on the door post plate

 

[MickeyS70]

Do I need to get the working car batteries to about the same point of charge as the spare pack as I could use the black car a little more to flatten them a little more to match them or just leave as is and work it out as we go along?

No need to match the SoC of the packs, once the 12V aux is reconnected, the BMU will calculate SoC according to pack voltage.

Not convinced that the black car’s charging issue is caused by a faulty pack, what’s the 12V aux voltage across the terminals when the car is READY?

If it’s not 14.4V then you may have a faulty OBC, in that case I suggest (if PCB colours match) to swap just CMU3 and charge up the battery in the old car. If that worked and data connectors are identical, move the complete, repaired 2010 pack over to the new car.

Important: do not reconnect 12V aux unless all CMUs are properly connected to the cells!

 

[piev]

The only ‘plug and play’ replacements for LEV50x are the original OEM cells.

Unfortunately it’s almost impossible to get even a few decent cells these days, never mind a complete back. But given what I learnt from the various contributors on this forum I think it’s possible to use any cells as long as they fit mechanically, connect to CMUs, match min/max voltages and C value of the original LEV50x.

To what degree the BMU is capable of using the increased capacity depends on the scenario:
- single NMC replacement cells can probably be used without BMU mods as pack is already at a low(ish) capacity
- complete pack upgrades ideally should be used with a CAN bridge for optimal performance but will work(ish) even without

It seems possible to create ‘virtual’ cells via CAN therefore simply removing single bad cells and shunt the terminals could also be a viable option…

Not sure what you mean by all this…..

Replacing the original cells with any cells of the same voltage, of equal or greater capacity, requires no modifications I can think of. If you put 95Ah cells in it just won’t discharge them all the way. This won’t cause any issues. I drove mine for months like that… I reset the capacity using the MUT3 to 48Ah and it worked perfectly. You could even use 60 or 75Ah and the charge discharge curve is pretty irrelevant since you never fully discharge them.

 

[MickeyS70]

Not sure what you mean by all this…..

Replacing the original cells with any cells of the same voltage, of equal or greater capacity, requires no modifications I can think of. If you put 95Ah cells in it just won’t discharge them all the way. This won’t cause any issues. I drove mine for months like that… I reset the capacity using the MUT3 to 48Ah and it worked perfectly. You could even use 60 or 75Ah and the charge discharge curve is pretty irrelevant since you never fully discharge them.

Forgot to mention cell capacity, thanks for reminding me. You’re correct, it’s crucial to do a battery reset if you replace a complete pack as otherwise the BMU calculates SoC with ‘pre-swap’ capacity and is not able to adjust upwards as it can’t deal with the different charge curve.

This modification, while quick and simple to do, requires a MUT3 or Diagbox diagnostics tool which isn’t commonly available.

 

[alviseven]

well have worked hard today - got the pack out of the white 2010 car and down on the ground.
Opened the top up but now how to I find the colours of the BMS units - do I have to strip out the tops of the cell packs once I have isolated them into blocks.

Pack came out nice and easily using my ramp even if putting the car onto the wheels free was a novel solution to allow the pack to drop on the ramp itself!

So now have an opened battery pack to deal with.



I have also left the drivers window down but have read somewhere that I cannot reconnect the front bonnet battery without damaging the electronics if the car does not have its traction batteries.
Is this only if I try to turn it to drive? or can I operate the windows from the first click on the key. Need to get the window up to get it watertight again!

 

[coulomb]

how to I find the colours of the BMS units

I think you have to peek behind this black cover. It might be possible to do this on one side of the battery without removing too much.



The CMU is in the middle channel. Actually, is it possible to remove any of the squares running across the middle? It almost looks like the one at the left can be slid over to peek inside.

 

[kiev]

Nice instructional video.

Reconnect the seat connectors before attaching the 12V again, or else it may throw an airbag fault that requires the dealer's MUT to clear.

Then i think you can raise the windows with the key to the ON position, not sure that ACC position will power them. As long as you don't turn to START there shouldn't be an issue.

 

[MickeyS70]

well have worked hard today - got the pack out of the white 2010 car and down on the ground.
Opened the top up but now how to I find the colours of the BMS units - do I have to strip out the tops of the cell packs once I have isolated them into blocks.

Pack came out nice and easily using my ramp even if putting the car onto the wheels free was a novel solution to allow the pack to drop on the ramp itself!

So now have an opened battery pack to deal with.



I have also left the drivers window down but have read somewhere that I cannot reconnect the front bonnet battery without damaging the electronics if the car does not have its traction batteries.
Is this only if I try to turn it to drive? or can I operate the windows from the first click on the key. Need to get the window up to get it watertight again!

Great video, wish I had this at hand before I took out mine…

Remove CMU3 and open it up to get access to the PCB. What can damage the CMUs is to apply 12V when they are not connected to ‘their’ cells. No issue if the battery pack is removed. As @kiev advised re-connect passenger seat cables before 12V aux. Btw HobDrive can also clear the airbag fault.

 

[alviseven]

Thanks for feedback will look later.

Seat had no wires attaching anything. Is mine an early car that only had a drivers uk airbag. I will look on dash for the key off set up like the 2011 car has.

Glad I should be able to shut window. Need it down to push around but need it up to store.

 

[Negue]

How many mm space ar bitwin modules ?
I want to use other cells and is bigger 10-15mm :/

https://e-foton.eu/en_US/p/Samsung-SDI-60Ah/102

 

[alviseven]

How many mm space ar bitwin modules ?
I want to use other cells and is bigger 10-15mm :/

https://e-foton.eu/en_US/p/Samsung-SDI-60Ah/102

cell block of eight just removed measures 120x390 with height of 180mm
space in the tray it was removed from you might squeeze 120x408 to the inside of the mounting bolts at each end with a height of 205 if you discard the foam over the top and have the cells almost banging on the top of the lid.
hope this helps

 

[MickeyS70]

cell block of eight just removed measures 120x390 with height of 180mm
space in the tray it was removed from you might squeeze 120x408 to the inside of the mounting bolts at each end with a height of 205 if you discard the foam over the top and have the cells almost banging on the top of the lid.
hope this helps

The cells he’s trying to use are taller but as they lay sideways I think @Negue is wondering if there is any wiggle room between the 8 packs, looks like there is a gap on the pictures..

 

[Negue]

Indeed, I want to know if I can switch in same module ( with small modification ) all LEV50 43x171x115mm with SDI60 45x175x125+(5mm connector) and they are taller/ sideways and to know if all modules have space from left to right without connectors touch something.

That I was see to. Probably is a gap between modules to service them easily.

 

[alviseven]

the cell cases seem quite a tight fit in sideways and the space where the buzz bars go are over quite a severe moulded ridge in the casing below. Not had the cases open yet so do not know how much extra room might be inside the cases compared to the LEV50 batteries I assume there is some electronics inside the top of these cases - assume this is where I will find the colour of the BMS?

 

[Negue]

Thank you.
When you work on it, I will appreciate if you can measure space between modules and do a picture with that space for I understand better that can I do.

Indeed , on top/side of the module is module BMS.

 

[alviseven]

Opened up a cell block
Reckon I have red bus judge from the colour.
Now need to know what the other car has I guess.

 

[alviseven]

Thank you.
When you work on it, I will appreciate if you can measure space between modules and do a picture with that space for I understand better that can I do.

Indeed , on top/side of the module is module BMS.

Do these little videos help?

 

[MickeyS70]

Opened up a cell block
Reckon I have red bus judge from the colour.
Now need to know what the other car has I guess.

Yes, as expected, fingers crossed the other car is the same.

I would use your insulated tools now, cells may be low voltage but can produce immense currents if shorted by accident…

 

[alviseven]

Yes, as expected, fingers crossed the other car is the same.

I would use your insulated tools now, cells may be low voltage but can produce immense currents if shorted by accident…

If they are the same I assume that I do not need to strip the blocks to individual cells? Except for the one cmu we think is not reporting?
Next weekend job will be pack out of other one then got to get this dead one off ramp now.