Battery pack change plans

[alviseven]

yes last value it just says VIN mileage and other details does match up
cannot charge the one car at all so only one shot will suffice and the other car is struggling to charge at the moment full stop too! In the wars here!

 

[coulomb]

If they are the same why does the black charger on the 2011 car not work on the 2010 car at all?

The 2010s had a different on-board charger. Inside, the 2010s have three smaller modules bolted to the heatsink / heat exchanger plate, while the 2011s have one larger Waffle Plate™ with all the power devices (IGBTs, diodes) in it. The 2010s are designed not to need an EVSE; they connect directly to an AC plug, no "brick". I have seen conflicting reports over whether these 2010 OBCs can work with an EVSE (external AC "charger" or not. The 2010s lack the ability to detect the pilot signal, so they charge at 13 A (or whatever current) regardless of what the pilot signal specifies.

Edit: This applies to Japanese and Australian iMiEVs; its' possible that UK and US iMiEVs may be different. But it would explain your finding.

 

[frank1]

Edit: This applies to Japanese and Australian iMiEVs; its' possible that UK and US iMiEVs may be different. But it would explain your finding.

my 2012 ion draws 6a 10a and 13a ok, depending what my ebay brick is set at

 

[alviseven]

The 2010s had a different on-board charger. Inside, the 2010s have three smaller modules bolted to the heatsink / heat exchanger plate, while the 2011s have one larger Waffle Plate™ with all the power devices (IGBTs, diodes) in it. The 2010s are designed not to need an EVSE; they connect directly to an AC plug, no "brick". I have seen conflicting reports over whether these 2010 OBCs can work with an EVSE (external AC "charger" or not. The 2010s lack the ability to detect the pilot signal, so they charge at 13 A (or whatever current) regardless of what the pilot signal specifies.

Edit: This applies to Japanese and Australian iMiEVs; its' possible that UK and US iMiEVs may be different. But it would explain your finding.

My 2010 earlier car does not even recognise the later "brick" being attached to the earlier 2010 car and dare not try the earlier direct lead onto the later "working" car. Even in its non functioning state the 2010 car does at least recognise the direct plug lead charger set up so something on that charge side is working to recognise it but the brick it does not react to at all - no light on dash
Thank you for the explanation.

Assume that the on board charger is not inside the battery pack so if the packs are the same and have the same CMU and BMS type presumably if the plug on the side is the same then I could try the straight swap idea before starting to think about stripping the cells out and moving these across.

 

[coulomb]

Assume that the on board charger is not inside the battery pack

Correct. It's under the boot floor.

so if the packs are the same and have the same CMU and BMS type presumably if the plug on the side is the same then I could try the straight swap idea before starting to think about stripping the cells out and moving these across.

Alas, the 2010s probably have the "red" CMUs, which are not interchangeable with the "green" CMUs. The red color refers to the conformal coating used on about 80% of the CMU board area. The "green" ones have a clear coating, so the overall impression is green, from the green solder resist. I don't know whether the incompatibility is CMU to CMU or CMU to BMU, i.e. whether an all-green pack will work with the same BMS as an all-red pack. It might be worth making some temporary wiring to check if it's going to work before bolting everything together. But that might not be practical.

Perhaps someone else knows. But otherwise, try it and let us know here!

 

[alviseven]

managed to get the screen shots taken from my phone - everyday is a school day never knew you could screen shot a phone!
So have managed to get the dongle to connect to both cars and get the cell values and read other data from them. The 2010 car I cannot currently charge at all but it does seem to have some charge left in the battery pack but the thing will not turn on and shows the symbol in the image on the dash. The front control battery also seems to have a constant draw on it and the air con or the battery cooling blower seems to be constantly on even when the key is out of the vehicle and the nothing is left switched on. So it gets stored with the control battery disconnected but am sure I can charge this locally and separately anyway.
the cell values look ok on the 2010 but one row is either rogue or broken as it reads 329v which may be why the car is now functioning at all? However the battery capacity it seems to think is better than the 2011 black car I have but the cell values on this car are a bit more varied and all over the place.
I cannot get either car to currently charge the black on connects but then drops out with a battery fault and has been getting worse over the last few weeks the white 2010 one does not charge full stop.

I have also found copies of the black car cell reading taken when I first had the car and enclose these 2021 readings for comparison.

My estimation is that the 2010 cells look better but for the one row which is unknown. the capacity is higher which falls in line with the previous owner telling me that when it was working it was still showing about 50 mile range but the 2011 car is a lower capacity and may have a block shut down as its capacity is down to about 9.3Kwh and I know its range is down to about 30 or little more.

Going on the advice here I think to drop the 2010 pack out and see what it looks like is the first plan. If different then open it up and check the colour of the CMU units. Then depending on what is inside to consider options such as moving the good blocks of cells from the 2010 pack to the 2011 pack but reuse the 2011 BMU and CMU units and then the dodgy looking 2010 block I can check manually each cell or use the known better ones from the 2011 unit etc....
Pays to always have a plan even if it changes!

 

[MickeyS70]

You’re correct, the 2010 car won’t charge because it has a faulty CMU3 that doesn’t report back the cell voltages, cells themselves are probably ok, but that rules out a complete pack swap unfortunately.

You need to remove both packs and proceed according to post #17, but you’re right, the best chance of success is to just move the 88 cells from the 2010 car into the newer pack.

 

[alviseven]

Sounds like a plan and at least I get to use my nice new insulated tools even if it is step into the unknown. Many thanks for the replies and advice will let you know.
Assume that the cell readings look better for the 2010 unit - one mystery is that the 2011 car has 89K miles on its speedo yet the OBD says it has something like 141K miles. Do not understand this but hope that it is not a scam! However the MOT history does not support this figure at all!

next weekend perhaps and then I have a week off too so hopefully sorted but sure I shall have more questions

 

[kiev]

The first one is 89k miles, the other is in kilometers.

 

[Gary12345]

Japanese built mievs have shorter vins.

https://carvx.jp/chassis-number#:~:...o not use,identifying model and serial number.

 

[MickeyS70]

Assume that the cell readings look better for the 2010 unit

Hard to tell from the limited information at hand: the ‘assumed’ current capacity is slightly higher but the difference between highest/lowest cell (balancing) is slightly worse. It’s low mileage could well mean that the capacity will go up slowly once you start using it.

As the car doesn’t drive we don’t have any indication what the cells will do under load and then there is the other issue with 2011 not charging, so if the CMUs are the same color I would even suggest to (at least temporarily) fix the 2010 car..

 

[alviseven]

Hard to tell from the limited information at hand: the ‘assumed’ current capacity is slightly higher but the difference between highest/lowest cell (balancing) is slightly worse. It’s low mileage could well mean that the capacity will go up slowly once you start using it.

As the car doesn’t drive we don’t have any indication what the cells will do under load and then there is the other issue with 2011 not charging, so if the CMUs are the same color I would even suggest to (at least temporarily) fix the 2010 car..

this is the first time that it has not charged but it still runs and drives and works
the other car stopped and previous owner could not fix it either and suspect he has lost the chip in the key as well as from the data think that one of the cmu units are not working which is why it will not charge etc. plus the early car is tinted windows and awful to sit in compared to the 2011 one which more uk spec which may explain why the other car has the shorter funny vin number

I suspect that if I leave the 2011 car and perhaps drive it a little more then it will charge but do not know.
What advice can you give about buying presume laptop type stuff to read fault codes - do I need special electric car version or will any reader do - certainly my code reader I have which is ok for the astras and mondeos we have but this does not work on the imiev

no idea how to fix the 2010 car or where to start - if it was 100 years old perhaps I might have but still learning this modern stuff!

 

[MickeyS70]

this is the first time that it has not charged but it still runs and drives and works
the other car stopped and previous owner could not fix it either and suspect he has lost the chip in the key as well as from the data think that one of the cmu units are not working which is why it will not charge etc. plus the early car is tinted windows and awful to sit in compared to the 2011 one which more uk spec which may explain why the other car has the shorter funny vin number

I suspect that if I leave the 2011 car and perhaps drive it a little more then it will charge but do not know.
What advice can you give about buying presume laptop type stuff to read fault codes - do I need special electric car version or will any reader do - certainly my code reader I have which is ok for the astras and mondeos we have but this does not work on the imiev

no idea how to fix the 2010 car or where to start - if it was 100 years old perhaps I might have but still learning this modern stuff!

There is a good chance that the faulty CMU3 is all that’s wrong with the 2010 car (it won’t go READY without all cells checking in). I have a hunch it was built for the Japanese domestic market and somehow made it to the UK.

You could try to do a CHAdeMON DC charge with the 2011, if that works, there could be a problem with your OBC (on board charger), sometimes this issue also affects the top up of your 12V aux, measure across the battery terminals when the car is READY, expect around 14.4VDC.

Your phone/dongle already works with OBDZero, therefore you should be able to use the CarScanner app to read/clear DTCs.

 

[piev]

managed to get the screen shots taken from my phone - everyday is a school day never knew you could screen shot a phone!

Just FYI, if you don't know already.

All the OBDZero data is stored in the Download folder on you Android device.

You can read it with a text editor or import into a spreadsheet.

 

[Turnik79]

При замене ячеек, на плате CMU часто выходит из строя контроллер LTC или маленький керамический предохранитель, будет достаточно его заменить. А вообще не понимаю смысл такой замены ячеек. Я поменял старые ячейки, на ячейки 95Ah это примерно 33 kWt

 

[kiev]

@Turnik79 said

When replacing cells, the LTC controller or a small ceramic fuse on the CMU board often fails; it will be enough to replace it. In general, I don’t understand the point of replacing cells like this. I replaced the old cells with 95Ah cells, which is approximately 33 kWt

 

[Negue]

При замене ячеек, на плате CMU часто выходит из строя контроллер LTC или маленький керамический предохранитель, будет достаточно его заменить. А вообще не понимаю смысл такой замены ячеек. Я поменял старые ячейки, на ячейки 95Ah это примерно 33 kWt

33kwh , but probably cost 5k € + thous cells and lost of software modifications.

 

[MickeyS70]

The only ‘plug and play’ replacements for LEV50x are the original OEM cells.

Unfortunately it’s almost impossible to get even a few decent cells these days, never mind a complete back. But given what I learnt from the various contributors on this forum I think it’s possible to use any cells as long as they fit mechanically, connect to CMUs, match min/max voltages and C value of the original LEV50x.

To what degree the BMU is capable of using the increased capacity depends on the scenario:
- single NMC replacement cells can probably be used without BMU mods as pack is already at a low(ish) capacity
- complete pack upgrades ideally should be used with a CAN bridge for optimal performance but will work(ish) even without

It seems possible to create ‘virtual’ cells via CAN therefore simply removing single bad cells and shunt the terminals could also be a viable option…

 

[martinwinlow]

The 2010s had a different on-board charger. Inside, the 2010s have three smaller modules bolted to the heatsink / heat exchanger plate, while the 2011s have one larger Waffle Plate™ with all the power devices (IGBTs, diodes) in it. The 2010s are designed not to need an EVSE; they connect directly to an AC plug, no "brick". I have seen conflicting reports over whether these 2010 OBCs can work with an EVSE (external AC "charger" or not. The 2010s lack the ability to detect the pilot signal, so they charge at 13 A (or whatever current) regardless of what the pilot signal specifies.

Edit: This applies to Japanese and Australian iMiEVs; its' possible that UK and US iMiEVs may be different. But it would explain your finding.

The first i-MiEVs to arrive in the UK (built in 2009) which were sold to SSE (electricity supplier) and had their predominantly green 'wind turbine' wrap over a red and white original paint job, were also 'dumb' ie charged from a domestic socket and not SAE J1772/IEC62196-compliant (ie no pilot signal interaction with EVSE facility). I own one which I bought with the BMU 'LTC chip failure' issue and which I eventually repaired with the help of this forum and myimiev.com. I don't know if other similar vehicles were supplied to other UK customers...?

 

[MickeyS70]

The first i-MiEVs to arrive in the UK (built in 2009) which were sold to SSE (electricity supplier) and had their predominantly green 'wind turbine' wrap over a red and white original paint job, were also 'dumb' ie charged from a domestic socket and not SAE J1772/IEC62196-compliant (ie no pilot signal interaction with EVSE facility). I own one which I bought with the BMU 'LTC chip failure' issue and which I eventually repaired with the help of this forum and myimiev.com. I don't know if other similar vehicles were supplied to other UK customers...?

Looks like that’s what @alviseven bought, what color are your CMUs?