Practical solutions for extending cold weather range

[Llecentaur]

Hi Don, thank you for information.

Re Webasto, it goes below drivers feet, rather around the arch of the drivers wheel. TestO had kindly given thennorwegian manual which I translated with difficulty Witt the assistance of a Swedish student .

Let me put my hand on it and scan it with the hand written add ons. I am sure forum has Ressources to rework it.

 

[Llecentaur]

Just ordered two of these as an infrared alternative.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Infrared-Heater-HQE-0307-43578-/360717694640?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53fc7336b0

Voltage is 277V which might not be high enough for the 16kw battery that runs nominal at 330v but I hope it would work for my 14.5 KW running at 298V (80 cells vs 88).

Wondering if they would fit under dash to warm up feet ? Or alternatively I was thinking of installing one on top of the back window, aiming forward...

Any idea how I could safely feed them from main battery ?

 

[Don]

Any idea how I could safely feed them from main battery ?

That's going to be a real challenge. Doing it at all will be difficult and getting 330 volts *safely* into the cabin is probably beyond the scope of most experienced DIY'ers

If you try it yourself, I'd use quality wire and put it inside code rated conduit, especially where it comes through the firewall. Make sure you install a 2 or 3 amp fuse as close as possible to where you pick off the pack voltage. I'm a pretty experienced electronics installer (I installed radar systems and ILS equipment for the Air Force for 30 years) and this is one of very few things I would not try to do myself - I just don't think you want full traction pack voltage inside the car

Don

 

[FiddlerJohn]

I just don't think you want full traction pack voltage inside the car...Don

+1

 

[Llecentaur]

Oops, I understand your warning. Some Canadian forum members were discussing last year about the idea of installing two 120V IR bulbs in series under dashboard and I followed their idea without further analysis.

Indeed a fuse is a must. But finally 300V DC or 240V AC have the same danger, I guess your worry is to have a cutoff circuit to avoid shorts due to high amps ?

Isn't there some super fast cutting circuits like the ones at home ? I think it monitors current that goes vs current that comes back and if there is a difference, it cuts off.

A combination of such circuit and 2 amp fuse should give some degree of protection?

 

[peterdambier]

And beware of fuses in series.

This used to be my charging socket for more than a year. I was always lamenting about Schuko plugs and sockets and ruined many of them. I have long since modified everything to CEE 230V/16A and adapters for CEE 400V/16A and 32A.

This one was smelling loud enough for my landlord to agree in replacing the final Schuko with a CEE 230V/16A or Blue Command Socket.

This used to be in a circuit with a fuse tripping at 16A and trip it did never. The line to our car is some 25 meters 2.5 mm squared. In the house there is another 10 meters looking like 1.5 mm squared.

Bad thing about Schukos they love to tilt when the cord pulls down. That gets a smaller surface, that gets hotter because it has more resitance. That gets even more resitance because of the heat ... and the case melts and allows for more tilting.

A rat race that will never trip the fuse except for a very unlikely short and even that short has too much of a resitance most of the time.

Shunts and fuses are working mostly the same way. Shunt: current through a resistor results in voltage that keeps telling the BMU how much current flows. Side effect voltage times amperes gives heat radiated from the resistor and of coarse a voltage drop over the resistor.

Fuse: current through a resistor drops voltage. Voltage times current gives heat and the fuse melts. Side effect voltage drop over the resistor.

Putting two fuses in series might result in half the current and none of them blowing. There may be reasons for splitting circuits and putting fuses in every branch but think twice and never put fuses of the same size in series. Before putting three fuses in series in a rats nest of wires send an invitation the the fire brigade. You might need them. Fuses do produce heat. Never put them on wood.

In our car things are even more tricky with stuff that can burn and circuits of high and not so high voltages. In a house you always have yet another fuse just in case and mostly you wont see more than some 20 amperes but in our car with a motor that needs some 500 amperes there is no more fuse. That is why the mitsu people are wearing a divers suit with googles and all before touching our main battery.

Cheers
Peter and Karin

 

[Don]

Indeed a fuse is a must. But finally 300V DC or 240V AC have the same danger, I guess your worry is to have a cutoff circuit to avoid shorts due to high amps ?

Yes, but . . . . the car is subject to all sorts of movement and vibration that home wiring doesn't get and your heater isn't designed for any of that. Pretty sure it wasn't intended for any mobile application. Then there's the fact that the foot-well area is likely to get wet in the wintertime and a 300 volt heater in the proximity of someone's wet feet is just . . . . scary

A combination of such circuit and 2 amp fuse should give some degree of protection?

Yes, it would keep you from having a fire, but it won't prevent someone from getting seriously shocked

Don

 

[Llecentaur]

Thank you for the information. Anyway I will have to test the heaters on 240v to see how much they heat, as they will be even hotter at 298 v.

If they get to near burning. Temperature, then problem is solved, they have no place in a car, I was expecting them to be almost touchable like 60 or 70 c.

A friend works in a company producing high grade industrial thermometers and will provide me with shielded (with iron and fiberglass) and silicon insulation wire. These would be the safest things to attempt such project.

Then the 2A fuse will have to be probably near existing heater were I guess I could hook the juice.

First step: testing the heaters when they arrive, hopefully by week-end, at worse, I can install them in our SPA

 

[Don]

Harbor Freight has their little $20 cigarette lighter heater/defroster on sale for half price. For just ten bucks I think I'll grab one of those and sit it up on the dashboard with some Velcro and see if that doesn't solve my winter fogging problems. It's only 100 watts so it will use way less juice than running the heater to defrost . . . . assuming it's powerful enough to do anything

http://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-auto-heater-defroster-with-light-60525.html

The link shows it's $15, but if you're on their mailing list, they sent me a coupon for $9.99

Don

 

[jray3]

Thank you for the information. Anyway I will have to test the heaters on 240v to see how much they heat, as they will be even hotter at 298 v.

If they get to near burning. Temperature, then problem is solved, they have no place in a car, I was expecting them to be almost touchable like 60 or 70 c.

I'll bet that these puppies glow bright red- also known as quartz heaters, like the glass tubes in a toaster oven. The other big safety factor on DC voltage is that it's much harder to break a DC arc than an AC arc, which changes direction 60 times per second (50 in Japan). A fuse that is only AC rated can't be relied on for a DC circuit of anywhere near as much voltage.

 

[jaraczs]

Harbor Freight has their little $20 cigarette lighter heater/defroster on sale for half price. For just ten bucks I think I'll grab one of those and sit it up on the dashboard with some Velcro and see if that doesn't solve my winter fogging problems. It's only 100 watts . . . .
Don

Thanks for sharing, Don. I think this type of electric heater is very good alternative for windows defogging. Last Winter, I noticed that fogging is a problem at certain temperature range (and humidity). When the temperature dropped to 15F, I did not have problem with fogging nor ice-ing.
Stan

 

[Barbagris]

A nice picture:

It's about a Webasto "High Voltage Heater".

http://www.motorpasionfuturo.com/coches-electricos/la-solucion-de-webasto-al-reto-de-calentar-el-interior-de-un-vehiculo-electrico-con-el-menor-consumo

Sorry, the article is in spanish, but is another kind of an electric resistance, I think. But I like the infrared photo! :lol:

 

[FiddlerJohn]

Great IR image. Thanks for posting.

Notice the front DRL, P13W (PSX26W), lights. 2x16W=32 Watts.

The roof and windows have a lot of heat escaping, but the doors look cool.

 

[Don]

Following the Webasto link in Barbagris' post I did some reading on the Webasto Thermo Top Evo 4 parking heater . . . . you can Google it and read about it in English

This sounds like the perfect addition to a cold climate iMiEV . . . . if you can find some vendor who will sell you one. I kinda suspect Webasto purposefully doesn't do business in the USA, probably due to our federal liability laws

Anyway, the Evo 4 parking heater is for small cars and the heater has a dual output of 4.2/2.6 KW and a fuel consumption of only .17 liter every 20 minutes in the high mode and 40% less than that when running in the low mode. If you installed a 1 gallon diesel tank, you'd have heat for a couple weeks

The unit measures 8.5 by 3.6 by 5.8 inches, so it should fit under the hood with a little juggling - I *think* the installations in Norwegian cars fit it under the hood somewhere

 

[jaraczs]

Following the Webasto link in Barbagris' post I did some reading on the Webasto Thermo Top Evo 4 parking heater . . . . you can Google it and read about it in English

This sounds like the perfect addition to a cold climate iMiEV . . . . if you can find some vendor who will sell you one. I kinda suspect Webasto purposefully doesn't do business in the USA, probably due to our federal liability laws

Anyway, the Evo 4 parking heater is for small cars and the heater has a dual output of 4.2/2.6 KW and a fuel consumption of only .17 liter every 20 minutes in the high mode and 40% less than that when running in the low mode. If you installed a 1 gallon diesel tank, you'd have heat for a couple weeks

The unit measures 8.5 by 3.6 by 5.8 inches, so it should fit under the hood with a little juggling - I *think* the installations in Norwegian cars fit it under the hood somewhere

Don, we can get parking heater from both, Webasto and Espar.
I have provided update to this topic in the parallel thread:
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=13257#p13257
... waiting for my Espar unit.
Stan

 

[RobertC]

A nice picture:

It looks like the heat is pouring out of the windshield, and the roof is also warm.
Heat rises, right?
Has anyone insulated the headliner yet?
Pictures? Instructions?

 

[Kuuuurija]

What is the actual range one can expect from the iMiev if there is below -20 degrees Celsius outside? Or such frost renders electric cars completely unusable? Any practical experiences?

http://www.maaleht.ee/news/tarbija/...latud-halvustada-elektriautosid.d?id=63924045

 

[Don]

What is the actual range one can expect from the iMiev if there is below -20 degrees Celsius outside? Or such frost renders electric cars completely unusable?

The actual range you can get from any EV even on a warm, sunny day varies greatly, depending on how and where you drive - Faster speeds, uneven terrain, rapid acceleration and failure to maintain steady speeds all contribute to shorter range. One driver might get 150 Km while another might not get 75 Km

Extreme cold also shortens range, but it doesn't make EV's useless in cold climates - iMiEV's are quite popular in Norway I'm told and we have many owners in the USA and Canada who live in places where it snows in the winter

As to how far you could drive in your climate with your driving habits . . . . no one could tell you that. If you have a longer commute where you can only recharge at home, an EV might not be the best, but if you can recharge at both ends of your commute, you can probably go 75 to 100 Km each way - It depends a lot more on how you drive than how cold it is

Don

 

[Kuuuurija]

If somebody has used iMiev in frosty (below -20 C) condition, please tell us what was the actual range you got! I have heard, that it is less than 50 km. Probably 75...100 km, as Don suggests, is very, very unlikely!

 

[MLucas]

As to how far you could drive in your climate with your driving habits . . . . no one could tell you that. If you have a longer commute where you can only recharge at home, an EV might not be the best, but if you can recharge at both ends of your commute, you can probably go 75 to 100 Km each way - It depends a lot more on how you drive than how cold it is

Don

That's the best advice for cold winter driving. I live in a moderate area for winter. I do see a decrease in range mostly to heater use but adding in slicker roads and snow plowing does decrease the range. I usually see 1-2kw more usage in winter than I do in summer for my daily commute. The picture above shows i-MiEVs buried in snow, not the best situation for an EV. Keeping them garaged will keep the batteries warm and don't charge until you need to use the car. I start charging 4 hours before I need the car in the morning, the charging process raises the temperature a bit in the batteries helping to keep them at an optimal tempurature for power delivery.