Main Traction Battery Upgrade i-MiEV

[piev]

Good point, we know from commercial solutions that they are able to limit the CHAdeMon power after NMC cell upgrades. I gather that they’re applying an official Mitsu ‘update’, does anyone have further details?

Pretty sure you can do this with the CAN bridge. I know the OBDZero app can monitor the charge profile so the data has to be on the bus. Does it go from the battery to the ECU or through the BMS. Pretty sure it goes through the BMS in which case you could change the current being requested. I do know that the charging has a different current sensor than the pack but I don't know details. I believe that Kiev figured this out. I could be wrong. Maybe I'll spend some time snooping around now that I have a MiEV again.

 

[hat]

Good point, we know from commercial solutions that they are able to limit the CHAdeMon power after NMC cell upgrades. I gather that they’re applying an official Mitsu ‘update’, does anyone have further details?

Thank you.
It is possible that a software "update" could limit the upper limit of the fast charging current. However, this forum has not yet discussed "updates."

 

[hat]

Pretty sure you can do this with the CAN bridge. I know the OBDZero app can monitor the charge profile so the data has to be on the bus. Does it go from the battery to the ECU or through the BMS. Pretty sure it goes through the BMS in which case you could change the current being requested. I do know that the charging has a different current sensor than the pack but I don't know details. I believe that Kiev figured this out. I could be wrong. Maybe I'll spend some time snooping around now that I have a MiEV again.

This is a way to convert current data using a CAN bridge without "updating" the software.

 

[MickeyS70]

Pretty sure you can do this with the CAN bridge. I know the OBDZero app can monitor the charge profile so the data has to be on the bus. Does it go from the battery to the ECU or through the BMS. Pretty sure it goes through the BMS in which case you could change the current being requested. I do know that the charging has a different current sensor than the pack but I don't know details. I believe that Kiev figured this out. I could be wrong. Maybe I'll spend some time snooping around now that I have a MiEV again.

Yes, I hope so. While the CAN communication between the EV-ECU and CHAdeMon EVSE is separate and charging limits are probably set on that level, the BMU seems ultimately in control as it’s monitoring the HV battery.

I gather it sends a ‘target current request’ to the EV-ECU which is then forwarded to the EVSE. If that’s the case, it should be easy enough to limit this value with a bridge if we only knew it’s PID?

@kiev has recently added some interesting info:
https://myimiev.com/threads/whats-all-this-chademo-can-buss-stuff-anyway.5727/

 

[hat]

Thank you.
I understand the information about CAN communication.
I can adjust the maximum current value to the NMC.

 

[Negue]

I know at Leaf that Can bridge can limit charging (30+kwh)

 

[MickeyS70]

I know at Leaf that Can bridge can limit charging (30+kwh)

Yes, that is where I found the information about the ‘target current request’, assuming this to be similar on a triplet…

 

[iso14000]

Hello,

I came across this cell which looks a lot like a LEV50, including the CMU tabs:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/OEM-ODM-Customized-Pack-New-Prismatic_1601105521478.html?fromPlat=buyer_ops&mt=mail&crm_mtn_tracelog_log_id=82694070612&crm_mtn_tracelog_task_id=push-task_66592&crm_mtn_tracelog_template=2000114762&crm_mtn_tracelog_creative_id=33598&as_token=4HMr+liSzzceD5KyMXhVVAs7dvfs7dvf&[email protected]&[email protected]

I didn't immediately see dimensions so it may not be a match. For those who would just like to rebuild their pack without increasing capacity, this could be a good choice. The price seems right. I'll leave it up to others to research this cell, since I am pleased with my upgrade.

Mike

HI

I've just make an inquiry to them, especially about dimensions, they fit a LEV40 not a LEV50 .
the LEV40 is finer and heigher than LEV50.
nothing to do with that....

I'm joining in the lev50 to CATL93 swap ... gonna order cells to start to rebuilt a spare module of 8 , don't know really how to set the "8mm option", but I dig ofr it.
happy new years for all....

 

[Jonny]

I apologize for the possibly stupid question.
Can I replace only some of the batteries with CATL93, e.g. 20 out of 88?
Or it is impossible to mix batteries...

 

[MickeyS70]

I apologize for the possibly stupid question.
Can I replace only some of the batteries with CATL93, e.g. 20 out of 88?
Or it is impossible to mix batteries...

It's not impossible to mix battery chemistry, but it's not recommended. The packs capacity and performance will always be defined by the weakest cell, therefore replacing 20 bad LEV50 cells with CATL93 is unlikely going to make a difference in the long run.

Picking the 20 worst cells isn't straight forward either, most likely you will miss a few and these will need to be replaced shortly afterwards.

Balancing a mixed capacity cell HV pack is (almost) impossible.

Last but not least, CHAdeMon (rapid DC charging) could exceed the maximum current rating of CATL93 cells.

 

[Jonny]

Thanks for the answer
There are no problems with charging, I use 10 amps of AC in 100% of cases
The question is more about investments, to replace dead cells with brand new ones of the same type, or to do a gradual upgrade

 

[MickeyS70]

The question is more about investments, to replace dead cells with brand new ones of the same type, or to do a gradual upgrade

It's highly unlikely that you will find 88 new LEV50N cells.

Not sure if you have ever removed the HV battery on triplet, without a car lift, this can be a very time consuming operation.

Worst case, you could end up with a mixed capacity pack if your peace meal style approach is taking a long time.

 

[stoatwblr]

I apologize for the possibly stupid question.
Can I replace only some of the batteries with CATL93, e.g. 20 out of 88?
Or it is impossible to mix batteries...

Given the differing battery chemistry (and therefore discharge voltage curve), it would be a spectacularly bad idea to mix cell types

 

[Daniele Schietroma]

Materials Needed:​

Battery Cells:

• 88x (or 80x for post-2012 iOn/C-Zero) NMC 93Ah cells with M8 terminals recommended
• Available from vendors on Alibaba like:
  • https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Starmax-High-Power-Catl-3-7V_1600752172388.html
  • https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Brand-New-CATL-Ternary-Lithium-Ion_1600494889608.html
  • https://www.xihobattery.com/products/catl-93ah-37v-nmc-prismatic-rechargeable-lithium-ion-battery
  • https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/subject_1600869468591.html

Hi everyone, I wanted to have a confirmation regarding the exact measurements of the cells for the Citroen C-Zero with 88 cells.
I saw from the links above that someone has mounted the 93ah, but the measurements seem too big to me, can you help me please?
Eventually these are not good, do you have the link where it is possible to buy them??
These are the measurements of the 93ah:

Model Number
93AH

Brand
CATL

Weight
1.42kg

Battery Type
NMC Rechargeable Lithium Battery

Weight
42(Thickness) x 172(Width) x85(Length) mm

Many thanks, any advice and help is welcome.

 

[MickeyS70]

Hello and welcome to the forum

Many thanks, any advice and help is welcome.

The original cells (LEV50x) have the following dimensions: 171mm x 44mm x 98mm.

The cells used for the upgrade described here are CATL93 NMC cells: 172mm x 42mm x 90mm.

There appears to be a shortage of supply of CATL93 and they don’t seem to be available currently.

 

[Daniele Schietroma]

At this link:
https://www.xihobattery.com/products/catl-93ah-37v-nmc-prismatic-rechargeable-lithium-ion-battery

they seem even smaller, are you talking about this site?
They don't have them available??

I asked for a quote from this other site:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Brand-New-CATL-Ternary-Lithium-Ion_1600494889608.html

Here the measurements seem to be larger.
I'll let you know if they answer me and if so how many they have available.
Thanks for the reply.

 

[Daniele Schietroma]

I have an update regarding the CATL 93ah cell request and this is the supplier's response:

" We received your inquiry for CATL93, but this cells has stooped production since 2024, so here we recommend SVOLT90AH "

I responded asking if the quality of these cells is better than CATL and asked for confirmation of the exact measurements of the new cells, I will keep you updated.
Stay tuned.

 

[Daniele Schietroma]

Hello and welcome to the forum

The original cells (LEV50x) have the following dimensions: 171mm x 44mm x 98mm.

The cells used for the upgrade described here are CATL93 NMC cells: 172mm x 42mm x 90mm.

There appears to be a shortage of supply of CATL93 and they don’t seem to be available currently.

Sorry if I repeat the question, but I found the datasheet of the LEV50N and the measurements are different, at this point it is important to know the exact measurement of the mounted cells to avoid buying 88 cells that do not fit in the battery compartment.
Has anyone measured them by hand and found exactly these measurements???
In attached is the image of the datasheet I found.

 

[kiev]

picture and dimensions on page 9 of this very thread--have you bothered to read it?

 

[Daniele Schietroma]

picture and dimensions on page 9 of this very thread--have you bothered to read it?

Thanks for the reminder and I apologize for my absence, but I used the search button and I had not found the reference to that page, surely now I have the correct measurements and I can adjust accordingly.
What seems strange to me is that the company Yuasa entered incorrect measurements, but probably their measurements refer to the maximum height including the cable connection connector or else, top of the screw, like wrote in the image.
Thanks again for your help.