i-MiEV and Renewable Energy

[PV1]

Anybody have some good photos of their i-MiEV with renewable energy generation (ie. solar panels, wind turbine, hydroelectric plant, etc.)?

Here's mine with a brand new 9.54 kW array being installed at my house. It is soon to be expanded to 11.66 kW. This is enough for the whole house and the car.

https://db.tt/tSVtybTC

 

[RobbW]

Very jealous! How much does an array like that run?

 

[PV1]

I got it for $37,000 installed. I should be able to get a state rebate of about $7,300, which will bring it down to below $30,000. Right now, good luck finding SolarWorld 265 watt panels.

 

[Don]

Looking at wholesale prices for panels, it appears they have now fallen below $1 per watt, so if you can build your own supporting structure a 10KW array could be purchased for less than $10,000
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/
They have the SolarWorld 265 panels for less than $300 each when you buy 30 of them

They also show a complete SolarWorld 10.6KW system for less than $20K with everything but the racks included

I didn't realize prices had fallen this much. Hmmmm . . . . I have a fairly flat roof over my garage which measures about 30 X 45. It's not sloped exactly in the correct direction, but I think that could be overcome . . . .

Don

 

[aarond12]

Remember that SolarCity is available in most US states too. You lease the array from them; your electricity bill goes to nearly zero; your monthly payments to SolarCity replace your electric bill. When I get my next house, it's gonna get a SolarCity array.

 

[Don]

I don't see the upside to leasing - If I read their literature correctly, it seems a lot like a cel phone agreement in that if you were to sell your home prior to the lease running out, you'd be liable to pay them the remainder of the lease . . . . plus, it doesn't sound like you save any money "A SolarLease can be a better investment than purchasing your system with cash because you do not have a big upfront payment and can save your money for other opportunities. You save money every month on lower electricity bills so you can be cash flow positive from day one in some cases."

At the end of the lease, you either extend it or they remove the panels - You never wind up owning anything. The advantage to purchasing would be that once the system is paid for, you'd have free electricity from that point forward. So long as the system generates enough power to make the payments, you're cash neutral with a promise of a tremendous return on your investment later on

Don

 

[tonymil]

I don't see the upside to leasing...if you were to sell your home prior to the lease running out, you'd be liable to pay them the remainder of the lease . . . . At the end of the lease, you either extend it or they remove the panels - You never wind up owning anything. Don

I'm currently looking into leasing from solar city, the only thing holding me back is that I'd have to cut a number of 80 foot pines in half to get enough sunlight on my roof. Don, I think it makes sense to lease rather than own. The solar city lease is for 20 years and I'm certain that after 20 years those solar panels will be worthless. Solar cells degrade plus solar technology will improve dramatically in 20 years. Not having to pay someone to remove the worthless solar panels is actually an attractive part of the lease. And it's true that selling your house mid-lease is an issue. But the lease is transferable. Either the buyer takes over the lease payments or you pay off the lease balance early and incorporate the remaining value of the solar panels into the purchase price. Of course that means finding a buyer who wants solar panels - just like owning a house with an inground pool means finding a buyer who wants a pool. I think there's a lot of benefit to leasing.

Tony

 

[PV1]

So, a complete system from Wholesale Solar for 36 panels on Enphase M215's would be $16,774. The ground mount is $4,257.

That is $21,031 for what I have pictured.

My price included all paperwork and permitting handled, moving the meter (isolated by a concrete driveway, moved onto a pedestal on opposite side of the driveway), net-metering application and meter, wiring, conduit, and labor. Not to mention tax, concrete, a Bobcat and auger rental with help from a sub-contractor, everything handled by the installer.

We handled trenching and site preparation (leveling a spot in the field). Not a big deal since we already have the equipment for that.

 

[Don]

I don't know, Tony - I guess it's all in how you read the fine print

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/solar-leasing-option.html

Any 'deal' is usually good for one party or the other - Very few equally benefit both. I guess I'm just skeptical, but the 'buyout' if you try to sell your house would be a huge red flag for me, but if you OWN the system, no question it's huge plus when you go to sell

I understand how the leasing company makes money on the deal, but other than the warm fuzzy feeling of 'going solar' I don't see how it benefits you at all. It sounds like if you're lucky (and you use sizeable amounts of electricity) you might break even financially . . . . but I don't see how you make any money - Especially not with the built in rate increases in the lease. Those work against you when you lease but rising energy costs work for you when you own

Don

 

[danpatgal]

Nice array, I really like it. I was trying to find one that my wife took last year ... it's probably on FB somewhere.

Back in 2010, we (barely) got in on the Tier 2 of the PA Sunshine Grants, so that took off about $12k of our 6.7kw array. (after that and the 35% tax credit, the out of pocket was roughly $14k). Here's an older picture, before we got our iMiev, the day we were also drilling for our geothermal heat pump.

https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1HVgO8a1DeAt6H8gs6yBX-xPEM7vwMcNWNp1HMggaMws/edit?usp=sharing

Despite all that extra electric load (all electric heat, two electric cars, no fossil fuel anything), the PV array provides 85-90% of our electric on a yearly basis.

When people start with the line "... oh, so you're just polluting by charging your car with coal" comment, I just say, "No, I have solar panels that provide most of the energy". I know it's smug ... but I also hope that some will also see that it's not only good for the environment, but has huge cost savings (over 20 years I will save $10-15k depending on gas prices, how much we drive, electricity prices, and how much / if SRECs credit sales prices [now in the doldrums] go up).

 

[PV1]

Thanks. We got the micro-inverters all hooked up today, and all are blinking red, waiting for the grid to be hooked up, which I heard should be tomorrow.

i be rollin' on sunshine real soon.


Also, Webasto (maker of the heaters familiar with some here) is working on a solar roof for hybrids and EVs. They currently have them for running the fan in hot weather.

http://www.webasto.com/us/markets-p...-systems-for-automotive-industry/solar-roofs/

 

[tonymil]

I don't know, Tony - I guess it's all in how you read the fine print...Any 'deal' is usually good for one party or the other - Very few equally benefit both. I guess I'm just skeptical, but the 'buyout' if you try to sell your house would be a huge red flag for me, but if you OWN the system, no question it's huge plus when you go to sell

I understand how the leasing company makes money on the deal, but other than the warm fuzzy feeling of 'going solar' I don't see how it benefits you at all. It sounds like if you're lucky (and you use sizeable amounts of electricity) you might break even financially . . . . but I don't see how you make any money - Especially not with the built in rate increases in the lease. Those work against you when you lease but rising energy costs work for you when you own

Don

Here's how my proposed contract would work. My annual electricity usage for the last 12 months was about 7100 kwh for a total 12 month bill of $911 (12.8 cents per kwh). The solar panels are supposed to provide 92% of my electricity or 6541 kwh per year, reducing my 12 month electricity bill to $74. Annual savings of $837. The no-money-down option has initial lease payments of $61 per month for total first year payments of $732. Deduct that from the $837 reduction in my electricity bill and I save $105 in year one.

But as you point out, the no money down option has yearly increasing payments. The payments increase by 2.9% per year, but the contract assumes that my electricity rate will increase by 4.8% per year, so even though my lease payments go up, my savings should go up every year as well. I agree that this is an uncomfortable assumption, but there's a way to avoid these escalating monthly fees.

The contract also offers an up front payment of $9260. If I pay this amount up front I never have any lease payments. Solar City still owns the equipment and still removes everything at the end of the 20 year lease. So, here's where the math gets interesting. If I do the no money down, yearly escalating payments, my total payments would be $19,399. When you compare that to the up front lease payment of $9260, it's as if I'm borrowing the $9260 from Solar City at an interest rate of 8.58 per year. Crazy. I'm in a position to borrow the lump sum payment of $9260 with a 20 year loan with an interest rate of about 5%. The monthly payment would be $61 - equal to the Solar City initial monthly lease payment of $61 - and my payment never goes up! My electricity price from National Grid will certainly go up, so every year my savings will definitely increase. I don't see how I can lose in this scenario. In 20 years those panels will be obsolete so Solar City would be doing me a favor by taking them down.

As I mentioned before, the only issue for me is cutting about six beautiful 80 foot pine trees in half. I haven't priced that yet and I'm not sure I'd do it even if the price makes financial sense. But there must be some members here who should give a solar city lease some serious consideration, especially if they can borrow the lump sum payment at an interest rate below the more than 8% rate Solar City is effectively charging with its no-money-down lease payments.

Tony

 

[aarond12]

But there must be some members here who should give a solar city lease some serious consideration, especially if they can borrow the lump sum payment at an interest rate below the more than 8% rate Solar City is effectively charging with its no-money-down lease payments.

And that's why I'm leasing a SolarCity array with my next house. I plan to roll the upfront cost into the home loan. #Winning!

 

[NeilBlanchard]

Here's my brother's house:

 

[tonymil]

Beautiful!

 

[MLucas]

Still waiting for my array. I'm working with a company that I'm starting to question their integrity. I was approved last February from the Ontario Power Authority and Niagara on the Lake Hydro LDC. To qualify for the Ontario Feed-In Tariff, we have to get approvals from both. I waited and waited and waited, sent emails and asked when my installation was going to take place. I kept getting promises and putoffs until the six month window to install my project closed. Ugh. Then we had to reapply again all over to get the OPA and the LDC to agree to take on my project. That has now been approved, again. Then I heard nothing as I saw messages coming in from the OPA. I had to call the installer again and got another putoff. I threatened to cancel my project and take my business elsewhere - then I got a response that my installation is scheduled for the first week in December. I wrote them again telling them that I would wait this one last time and at that point I'll be calling my attorney. They've been holding my cash since February and they owe me interest on it! It's been a hassle to say the least, I hope it will be worth it once the panels are installed.

 

[fjpod]

I question the integrity of ANY of these companies that offer solar leases. They design the terms so they make more money from the technology than you do. I will not deal with them. Solar will not take off until somebody honest gets into the business.

 

[tonymil]

So has anyone here actually purchased - not leased - solar panels for their home? I'd be interested in knowing how that had worked out financially so I can compare that to leasing.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

The system in the picture I posted was originally going to be leased, but the "line" was over 100 homes, so they decided to buy it. It cost about $27K, while the lease deal they had was about $1,400 down and ~$58/month for 20 years for their electricity. They were paying ~$70 to $180 per month, plus ~$1K per year for heating oil to heat their water.

The first full month of electricity production, they paid about $18 for electricity, and for August they got a credit for 66kWh. This included their A/C in the house and their hot water, and all their driving with the Leaf and the iMiEV. Those two months, it produced almost 800kWh (their total is now approaching 3MWh) and they were guarantied that the system would average at least 552kWh per month. They will probably average more than that, so I'm guessing they will average about $30-35 per month, which is about 20-25% of what they were paying.

It is a 6.37kW system (26 panels @ 245W each). And with the SREC's, the system will pay for itself in 8-10 years. So, the lease was a better deal, as it would have paid for itself in about 2 years, but in the end, buying it will be much better. The savings from the heating oil alone would pay for the system before it stops producing electricity.

And they have been driving their two EV's virtually for free. They heat the house with wood pellets (a pellet stove) and sawdust bricks (in a wood stove) so no fossil fuels, except for when he needs to drive his Tacoma. Which he wants to replace with either a Nissan e-NV200 or a Boulder DV-500.

 

[tonymil]

The system in the picture I posted was originally going to be leased, but the "line" was over 100 homes, so they decided to buy it. It cost about $27K, while the lease deal they had was about $1,400 down and ~$58/month for 20 years for their electricity. They were paying ~$70 to $180 per month, plus ~$1K per year for heating oil to heat their water....

Thanks Neil, that's very helpful. My lease proposal from Solar City doesn't offer a purchase option, but it gives some figures for the system (6.86 kw) if it was purchased. Unfortunately, the figures are confusing. It lists $34,300 as the "system cost"; $25,382 as "out of pocket"; and $14,267 as "Net cost". I have no idea what each of those represents so I'll have to ask the salesperson. If I borrow the lump sum option of $9260 and repay it at 5% for 20 years, my total cost would be $14,666. The only benefit I see from purchasing (from a different vendor) is that I could sell the system at any time, which would allow me to upgrade before the 20 years are up.