Fuel costs

[danpatgal]

Depending on how you use the car, 25,000 miles a year might not be hard to do

Just to clarify our driving habits,...As far as if it's possible with the I Miev - I think so

Like I said, technically possible, just in my experience it seems atypical. For example, before I got the i, I was looking into buying an old generation Toyota RAV4 EV. Most of those I saw available (in car-centric California) were 10+ years old and had less than 100k on the odometer. The Rav4 EV also has a better range than our i.

I'm not trying to be a party pooper (I do own an i and absolutely love it), but I think if you expect to be able to drive the same miles in an EV as an ICE without considering a reduced single trip range, battery recharging time, limited charge stations, or battery degradation, it might not be realistic. It does depend on your habits, how strict you adhere to them, and where you live. But, an EV is naturally less flexible than an ICE (my wife wanted to take the i to Harrisburg, PA today - but couldn't because it's about 40 miles each way, there was no charging available where she was going, so she had to take the gasoline car).

It will improve over time and I believe as more EVs are produced, the fixed costs and battery costs will go down to make EVs clearly not only more environmentally beneficial to own, but also economically so. We're just not yet there for it to be indisputable.

 

[JoeS]

...The EPA rating for the i-MiEV is 30kWh per 100 miles (or 300 Wh per mile in EV geekspeak). When I was charging with the supplied Level 1 EVSE (maybe 1000 miles before I installed the Level 2 EVSE), I could use a Kill-a-Watt meter to measure input kWh, and I seemed to be doing a little better than 300Wh/mi, maybe 270 or so. But for argument's sake, we'll use 300. (Anybody have better measurements on this?)
My most recent utility bill was 14.8 cents per kWh, so at 300 Wh per mile, that's 4.4 cents per mile traveled.

Rich, we have a thread for people to post what they're actually measuring wall-to-wheels.
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3490#p3490
In my case, it's 235.2Whr/mile which, using your 14.8cents/kWhr (seems high) works out to 3.48cents/mile fuel cost. Do you not have reduced time-of-use rates available?

 

[nt2w]

Rich, we have a thread for people to post what they're actually measuring wall-to-wheels.
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3490#p3490
In my case, it's 235.2Whr/mile which, using your 14.8cents/kWhr (seems high) works out to 3.48cents/mile fuel cost. Do you not have reduced time-of-use rates available?

Thanks, I figured there was probably some data mounting out there on the i's fuel economy. I didn't really make any notes during July when I was using Level 1 charging but was surprised at how efficient the MiEV is- by comparison to my ZAP Xebra EV, which typically was 220-230Wh/mile, the MiEV has only a little more appetite for electricity and comes with real-world (not NEV) performance. I seem to recall a best of 250 and typical of 260-270Wh/mile in my suburban not-too-hilly drive cycle for the i.

There is a time-of-use rate here in upstate NY, but typically it's been shown to benefit larger energy users like farms, who use over 2500kWh per month. My typical bill, even with the EV, runs around 700 or 800kWh per month, not enough kWh to offset the higher (by $10) monthly basic service charge. Also, here in NY, the real benefit comes in the supply charge, not the utility's delivery charge, so it's a function of WHOM you purchase electric supply from. The grid-tied PV system adds yet another layer of complexity in my personal situation.

 

[Don]

I think if you expect to be able to drive the same miles in an EV as an ICE without considering a reduced single trip range, battery recharging time, limited charge stations, or battery degradation, it might not be realistic. It does depend on your habits, how strict you adhere to them, and where you live. But, an EV is naturally less flexible than an ICE (my wife wanted to take the i to Harrisburg, PA today - but couldn't because it's about 40 miles each way, there was no charging available where she was going, so she had to take the gasoline car)

You're not a party pooper - You're just pointing out some of the obvious differences between it and other cars . . . . and I agree with you 100%

Unless your transportation needs are dramatically different from 90% of us, the i cannot be your only car. It's extremely good at what it was designed to do and it can greatly reduce your transportation costs for most of your driving needs, but it certainly can't do everything. Personally, I think it's getting a bad reputation sometimes because it doesn't live up to the unreasonable expectations some folks had for it before they bought it. As you noted, it cannot do everything you used to do with the ICE it replaced. It's range limited, can't tow a trailer and doesn't have the luggage capacity that many hatchbacks have

Teamed with a versatile ICE though, it can really reduce your overall transportation costs and might even allow cobwebs to form on your ICE from time to time

Don

 

[jray3]

I'm on week 35 of ownership and just hit 9000 miles. That converts to an expected annual mileage of 13,371. Certainly above the US fleet average, (which now stands at 12,334) but not requiring heroics by any means. Twice that would have been quite possible while sticking with Level 1 charging at work, since the car gets heavy evening and weekend use. (Level II at work should be in place within a month, thanks to the final bit of EV Project funding.) :mrgreen: No ChaDEmo either...

 

[sandange]

When we decided to buy the I Mieve as our only car, we did not expect it to have the same driving conveniences as the ICE Fit ,
But were willing to accept some occasions to have to rent, or swap with an ICE.

As the 2 largest cost to owning a new vehicle are #1 Depreciation & # 2 Fuel,
Heading soon into retirement, buying or owning a second car was not an option

Our money toilet - We own a ice motorcycle and love to ride long trips ( 370 miles, 600km, off to Toronto this weekend)

We work our vehicles hard, but also keep them in top shape

I will be using a trailer on occasion although not for heavy loads or long distances,
Our son is moving next week end and will bring it to him empty a 4 1/2' x 9' open trailer (44 miles, 70 km) as a trial run.

As far as charging locations go - we have them where ever there is a 110 dedicated plug & people willing to allow us to use it.
New ones are being installed everywhere & we hope to see the first fast charge station installed here in our area soon.

 

[sandange]

We just had a gas price spike here in Montreal yesterday

1 US Gallon = 6.21 USD = 6.06 Canadian dollars

1.599 liter

 

[tonymil]

-deleted-

 

[Applewins]

In michigan from 11pm-7am M-F we get .06kW and then weekends all day is .06kW other then that in the summer it is .12kw during peak and summer it is .20kW.

They give all of the house that power rate when you buy a electric car and also pay up to 2500 of the cost of a level 2 charger and install.

So vs driving the lifted cummins truck the diesel bill pays for the miev's payment.

I think I'm moving to michigan. In NYC, our supplier, ConEdison, does no such thing.

Yes, I'm also a Michigander. With consumers energy I'm at 7 cents kwh from 11 pm to 7am. Just delay charging every night. Then that rate all weekend. Changes a little for winter. But the cool thing was the up to $2500 refund for the charger, install of charger, panel upgrade, and smoke alarms. Local inspector required hard wired alarms be installed with a panel upgrade. A total win, win situation.

 

[clovi]

I just bought the "I" last month.
I live in VA and I have a 70 mile commute every day (35 each) , and sometimes going for 2 more different places what are distant 10 and 19 miles.
I can plug at my house , what for now I just have level 1 and I can plug in level 1 , level 2 and level 2 on these other places, what most of the time I get free juice!
I never got without juice.
I plan to buy this car for 2 months , going to these places and checking what I need to do if the stations are busy or etc...
The level 2 will be install at my house this week , where Dominium Virginia Power has a EV pricing plan for $0.05 per KW from 1:00am to 6:00am and $0.08 from 10:00pm to 1:00am and from 6:00am to 8:00am.
So , end of the story short , I can pay the car monthly with my old fuel bills, and maybe put something on the pocket, because no oil changes , filters, exhaust, belts etc... and 8 years or 100.000 miles warranty.
Cost for me to operate the "I"? probably around $0.50 to $0.60 to drive around 85 miles/day. :lol:

 

[jray3]

How much does it cost to recharge at a recharge station? I heard a charge of $2.50 to plug in. Would that not put a dent in the savings?

Hi Spirit,
Here in the Tacoma/Seattle area, a 1 hr minimum ChargePoint session is $1.70, and Blink starts at $2.00 At 3.3 miles/kwh and at least a 3.3 kW charging rate, that's $0.16 to $0.18 per mile for 'fuel'. In comparison to $3.50/gallon gasoline, it's the cost equivalent of 20 mpg, which is about equal to the average economy of the existing US fleet. Coincidence? I think not.
For me, that's a very acceptable price for public charging, especially since my average use of a public charger is an hour or two to get 'over the hump' on a high-mileage day.

BTW- for a 70 mile R/T commute, a top-off charge at work will be essential. What do you use to charge at work?

 

[JoeS]

From a different thread,

... At $30 a month for fuel...

This comment prompted me to re-examine what the fuel costs might be for me IF it were not 'free' because of my now fully amortized solar PV system.

My most-recent Time Of Use Pacific Gas & Electric E-7 (grandfathered and highly desirable) baseline summer rates are:
PEAK (noon - 6pm) $0.36/kWh
OFF-PEAK (6pm - noon) $0.11/kWh

I basically shut down everything in my all-electric house (except the refrigerator) between noon and 6pm and, with rare exceptions and because we now have two i-MiEVs, never need to charge during the day.

OK, my i-MiEV averages 4.2 miles/kWh Ref: Measured Wall-to-Wheels Consumption

We average almost exactly 1000 miles/month

Thus, we consume 238.1 kWh/month

Which would cost (if we paid for it) $26.20/month or 2.6¢/mile

Not too far off from tigger19687's $30/mo number.

Nice theoretical exercise in case someone locally asks about 'fuel' costs.

 

[iwatson]

OK, my i-MiEV averages 4.2 miles/kWh

Hey JoeS,

I read this in another thread you posted, plus some other imiever's that posted some higher and some lower efficiency figures, so I officially use your estimate in figuring fuel costs. BTW: We also read your post recommending the garmin gps. I went on ebay and bought the one you recommended! We entered 4.2 as our "MPG" and our killowatt/hr rate in place of "fuel price per gallon", so it constantly gives us our cost for miles traveled!

Our electric rate from TVA is just .09 cents a killowatt hour (using that cheap coal) and last month my wife drove her "i" 750 miles....using your 4.2 miles/kwh, our cost for fuel was only $16.07

People in our part of the country (With a few exceptions) are generally clueless about electric cars! Pity, as we have one of the lowest (if not the lowest) electric rates in the country!

 

[tigger19687]

Good thread here.
I got that amount from adding up the miles I drive for work plus a few more for going to the store etc.
Then just added up what my Electric costs (not including the basic stuff that is added just for having the service) and it came out to about $30.

WAY better then $300-$400 in Diesel.

 

[JoeS]

Boy, do I love my PV solar!

Just out of curiosity, I checked my latest Pacific Gas and Electric E-6 Rate schedule. In addition to different TOU Peak, Part-Peak, and Off-Peak rates we've had a Tier reduction down to two levels: "Baseline" and "Over 100% of Baseline".

Baseline usage is supposed to be the low-cost basic minimal-use level for a household in a month. Unfortunately, they treat power generation kWh the same way and as soon as I generate enough kWh to get above their baseline number (16.4kWh/day) they charge me at that higher rate even though I got into that category generating and not consuming! Go figure, but I don't mind as the good news is that they pay me back at that higher rate!

So, recognizing that I am always in the "Over 100% of Baseline" category, here are my summer rates:

Peak (1pm to 7pm): 45.7¢/kWh

Partial Peak (10:00am to 1:00pm and 7pm to 9pm): 34.2¢/kWh

Off-Peak (9pm to 10am): 26.5¢/kWh

I've had solar for 12 years, and have always been dollar-positive because the energy I generated was high-valued and resulted in a net $ number in my favor over the course of the year despite being energy negative (which means I consumed more kWh than I generated over the course of the year). Once a year, the utility does the accounting and has zeroed-out the positive dollars I had accrued over the course of the year because I was net energy-negative.

For the first time in this last year I will be a net energy producer which means I will actually get paid! Thanks to our Tesla Nova Scotia 50-day trip last Fall our home consumed a negligible amount while we were gone and we are now both energy-positive as well as dollar-positive! Can't wait to see what the utility ends up paying me in June in terms of ¢/kWh.

OK, so here's the question on the table: since the utility pays me for the electricity, does that mean I have a positive "fuel" cost and I actually make money driving my EV? :roll:

 

[Matheos]

Hi,
This Car is not economical !!! They simply shift the gasoline costs that the gas station takes to the manufacturer (In this case Mitsubishi ) !
The charger goes bad after 8 years or so and you must pay 4000 euro for another! The battery must be changed after 15 years or so and cost until yet 10.000 euro! Is that no Green driving thanks to Mitsubishi ?????

 

[Pier]

Hi,
To me this car has been very economical. No repairs in 9 years. No oil changes. just changing tires twice a year ( winter vs summer tires) And moreover for Joe, I forgot how high were the electrical bill in CA, here we pay only around 5cents/kwh up to 40kwh a day on a 2 month basis, and around 7.5cents over the average 40kwh, which is very easy not to exceed.

I have 1.24 kw peak nominal power PV just for the fun of it because electricity is so cheap here.

Pier

 

[Matheos]

Economical is when you pay for the battery 5000 euros or so and not 10.000. Eventually, you will change the battery and for every penny you saved on gasoline you will pay it to Mitsubishi! And pray until then that everything is going well with your car!

 

[JoeS]

Hi Matheos, I understand your frustration, especially as it applies to total cost of ownership.

This thread is about fuel cost which is still one of the i-MiEVs strong points, as it has proven to be quite efficient, at least in the summer.

If you'd like, perhaps we can have a separate thread discussing the trials and tribulations of being early EV adopters and the risks we took purchasing either a new or used i-MiEV and if/why that is different than any other BEV out there? Note, for example, Hyundai very quickly removed the 'lifetime' battery warranty (I like to think, after some of us pushed them hard to guarantee a fixed battery degradation number).

 

[Matheos]

Hallo Joe5,
Please tell me where is the fuel economy if you pay 10000 euro on a battery after 15 years! I have bought the Peugeot ion (used 22.000Km) for 12.000 euro I charged with solar power, I have never charged with a fast charger and now I can make only 80Km without heat and air condition!
The car has 90.000Km now!
And as I say 10.000 euro if everything goes ok and you have not to pay an OBC for 4200 euro!
And something else: The inside blower for heat and cooling has a tendency to go bad !!! Guess how much it cost new on this car!
260 euro about 300 Dollars. In other cars, it's about 70-110 euros.
So what a like to say that this car has built for economical reason, but not that what we at first think. The benefits in long term are on the wallet of Mitsubishis CEOs !!!!