Hello all! I am interested in purchasing a used 2011 iMiev and getting rid off my diesel hogging SUV. I am based in Ukraine and all the iMievs that are brought in are 99% from Norway. Therefore input from Norwegians would be greatly appreciated. The car has 92K kilometers on the clock, and according to the OBD the Ah reading is 28.5 and the voltages for all 88 cells are from 4.96-4.98 (I don’t have access to Canion so this is the only data). According to the seller the battery charges to all 16 indicators and shows 74 km range this morning at +4-5 celcius. What do you guys think? Will this iMiev last sometime or should I pass on it? Another factor is it seems the odometer has been messed with because in 2017 according to Norwegian records the odometer reading was 117K km. What do you think?
Buying a used 2011 iMiev from Norway
- Thread starter Bilych
- Start date
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Bilych, welcome to the forum. Yes, getting into electric cars is so nice that most of us will never go back to a diesel or gasoline vehicle again. Obviously, as members of this forum, we consider the i-MiEV/iOn/C-Zero as the vehicle of choice.
Good questions, and let me see if I can tackle them -
1. A battery capacity of 28.5Ah is quite low (it's around 45Ah when new) and would be a disqualifier for me because that seriously affects the car's range. Battery repair and replacement is difficult and almost cost-prohibitive.
2. Yes, I would tend to think the car's mileage is significantly higher than the indicated 92K km.
3. The voltage readings after a full charge should be uniform (within 5 millivolts) around 4.095 volts per cell. Perhaps the readings you were given were a typographical error?
4. A full-charge range of 74km (46 miles) is not necessarily bad or good as it merely reflects how the car had been driven the previous 24 km, although in general it would tend to corroborate the low battery capacity. I would even expect this number to have been lower. Reality is that you would typically expect a usable range of about 60km from this car, IF that Ah reading is correct.
I sympathize with your difficulty in trying to buy a car remotely from another country. I don't know what opportunities you have available, but I'm afraid I personally would not buy this car due to its significantly-reduced range.
Others' opinions are welcomed in an attempt to help Bilych out.
Wishing you all the best!
Good questions, and let me see if I can tackle them -
1. A battery capacity of 28.5Ah is quite low (it's around 45Ah when new) and would be a disqualifier for me because that seriously affects the car's range. Battery repair and replacement is difficult and almost cost-prohibitive.
2. Yes, I would tend to think the car's mileage is significantly higher than the indicated 92K km.
3. The voltage readings after a full charge should be uniform (within 5 millivolts) around 4.095 volts per cell. Perhaps the readings you were given were a typographical error?
4. A full-charge range of 74km (46 miles) is not necessarily bad or good as it merely reflects how the car had been driven the previous 24 km, although in general it would tend to corroborate the low battery capacity. I would even expect this number to have been lower. Reality is that you would typically expect a usable range of about 60km from this car, IF that Ah reading is correct.
I sympathize with your difficulty in trying to buy a car remotely from another country. I don't know what opportunities you have available, but I'm afraid I personally would not buy this car due to its significantly-reduced range.
Others' opinions are welcomed in an attempt to help Bilych out.
Wishing you all the best!
Hey JoeS! Thanks for the detailed answer I appreciate it. Yes, it’s quite a difficult choice to make as I don’t want to go over a certain budget for the iMiev so I want to find a golden middle. What would you personally recommend when choosing a car, which mAh to look for as a bare minimum in order to get a good 3-4 years run on the car and about 24K km on the odometer? Maybe a certain year and odometer threshold? Thanks
Hi Bilych, I understand your concerns. I personally am not too worried with mileage as a lot depends on how the car was driven and how the battery was cared for; however, with an older i-MiEV there are three concerns -
1. Rust, if the car was exposed to salt on winter roads - I personally have no experience with this topic.
2. Battery capacity - can be measured with an app (such as CaniOn on Android and a number of other apps discussed on this forum) and bluetooth genuine OBDLink LX or MX OBDII adapter, or else with a Mitsubishi MUT3 diagnostic. To last you for the next four years I would look for a car with >35Ah but I suspect all the pre-2012 cars you are looking at will have a lower capacity. Perhaps others with pre-2012 experience can comment on the relationship between age and mileage and capacity? We have a number of threads on this topic; e.g., http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4014
3. On-Board Charger / dc-dc module. Unfortunately, there is no way of predicting if and when this module will fail. Its replacement cost is prohibitive but some forum members have been successful in repairing this module and we have a very detailed thread on this topic which is a worldwide technical collaborative effort. Most cars have at least one Achilles' Heel, and this is the i-MiEV's. As far as I know there is no way of predicting the imminence of its demise.
Did I understand you correctly that you're only planning on putting on 24K km in the next four years or is that 24K km per year?
Hope others can jump in with some some words of encouragement.
1. Rust, if the car was exposed to salt on winter roads - I personally have no experience with this topic.
2. Battery capacity - can be measured with an app (such as CaniOn on Android and a number of other apps discussed on this forum) and bluetooth genuine OBDLink LX or MX OBDII adapter, or else with a Mitsubishi MUT3 diagnostic. To last you for the next four years I would look for a car with >35Ah but I suspect all the pre-2012 cars you are looking at will have a lower capacity. Perhaps others with pre-2012 experience can comment on the relationship between age and mileage and capacity? We have a number of threads on this topic; e.g., http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4014
3. On-Board Charger / dc-dc module. Unfortunately, there is no way of predicting if and when this module will fail. Its replacement cost is prohibitive but some forum members have been successful in repairing this module and we have a very detailed thread on this topic which is a worldwide technical collaborative effort. Most cars have at least one Achilles' Heel, and this is the i-MiEV's. As far as I know there is no way of predicting the imminence of its demise.
Did I understand you correctly that you're only planning on putting on 24K km in the next four years or is that 24K km per year?
Hope others can jump in with some some words of encouragement.
DBMandrake
Well-known member
28.5Ah usable capacity at a claimed 92,000 kilometres ?
I'd pass...
That battery is not long for this world and I'd be very surprised if there weren't some individual faulty cells dragging it down so low at that mileage. That's the lowest capacity I've seen reported online so far.
Mine has done almost the same mileage and is currently at around 34Ah, and that was after I've just replaced a few faulty cells that were dragging it down even lower.
Walk away. You can do much better. Look for one that is lower mileage, also avoid 2011 and 2012 cars as they use the older LEV50 cells which degrade a lot faster than the later LEV50N cells used from late 2012 onward.
If I knew what I know now I would not have bought a 2011 model due to the older cell type and it is already coming back to bite me two years later as I do a high yearly mileage. (30k miles in 2 1/2 years)
I'd pass...
That battery is not long for this world and I'd be very surprised if there weren't some individual faulty cells dragging it down so low at that mileage. That's the lowest capacity I've seen reported online so far.
Mine has done almost the same mileage and is currently at around 34Ah, and that was after I've just replaced a few faulty cells that were dragging it down even lower.
Walk away. You can do much better. Look for one that is lower mileage, also avoid 2011 and 2012 cars as they use the older LEV50 cells which degrade a lot faster than the later LEV50N cells used from late 2012 onward.
If I knew what I know now I would not have bought a 2011 model due to the older cell type and it is already coming back to bite me two years later as I do a high yearly mileage. (30k miles in 2 1/2 years)
The first screen is showing good balance across all the cells with only a 15 mV difference between the max and min cells. Most are at 3.995, but there were a couple at 4.000 and a couple at 3.985. The pack total voltage would be the sum of each of these values, ~350 V, and it's shown on the second screen.
the second screen is a summary of the min/max voltage and temperature, all good. It is also showing that the state of charge of the pack is only about 65%, so the "fuel" gauge on the dash would be at about 9 or 10 bars.
Fully charged would show 16 bars and the cells would be near 4.100 and the total pack voltage close to 360 V.
The capacity value is showing max available as 28.7 Ah out of the original 45. The current capacity is 65% of the 28.7, or 18.6 Ah. So the pack is degraded and worn compared to when new, but that is what batteries do, they wear out over time and usage. Originally the car could go ~100 km, now it can go ~65 to 75 km on a full charge.
The value for the internal resistance of the cells, 1.5 mOhms, is good.
Depending upon how far you need to commute, this could be a useful car. e.g. 60-70 km round trip
the second screen is a summary of the min/max voltage and temperature, all good. It is also showing that the state of charge of the pack is only about 65%, so the "fuel" gauge on the dash would be at about 9 or 10 bars.
Fully charged would show 16 bars and the cells would be near 4.100 and the total pack voltage close to 360 V.
The capacity value is showing max available as 28.7 Ah out of the original 45. The current capacity is 65% of the 28.7, or 18.6 Ah. So the pack is degraded and worn compared to when new, but that is what batteries do, they wear out over time and usage. Originally the car could go ~100 km, now it can go ~65 to 75 km on a full charge.
The value for the internal resistance of the cells, 1.5 mOhms, is good.
Depending upon how far you need to commute, this could be a useful car. e.g. 60-70 km round trip
This second car cell data all looks good, in addition it has a stronger pack with a capacity of 34.9 Ah, and will have a longer driving range of about 75-85 km.
It has 75% of it's maximum available energy in the tank, so showing about 12 bars on the fuel gauge.
The internal resistance of 2.8 mOhms is good and shows slightly higher than the first car due to the colder temperature.
It has 75% of it's maximum available energy in the tank, so showing about 12 bars on the fuel gauge.
The internal resistance of 2.8 mOhms is good and shows slightly higher than the first car due to the colder temperature.
Hey guys, thanks for the feedback I really appreciate it! 
The problem is this car is 1000$ more than the previous one and I have a certain budget I would like to stick to. I am planning to take a look at 2 more iMievs next week. Guys, if the next 2 cars I look at have similar indicators as this last one, should I consider them as a buy signal? They will be around 400$ more than the first one I posted and within my budget. Thanks for the advice.
The problem is this car is 1000$ more than the previous one and I have a certain budget I would like to stick to. I am planning to take a look at 2 more iMievs next week. Guys, if the next 2 cars I look at have similar indicators as this last one, should I consider them as a buy signal? They will be around 400$ more than the first one I posted and within my budget. Thanks for the advice.
There are times when trying to save $1,000 is not the way to go in the long run . . . . and this is one of those times. Considering the health of the battery in the first car and all other things being equal, the second car is easily worth $1K more, IMO
Don
Don
Don, I understand your thinking and agree in regards to not being cheap when in comes to such things as the health of the battery. However, as I mentioned I will take a look at 2 more cars next week which will be about 400$ more and may be just as healthy as this second car. The thing is these models are exotics in Ukraine right now so the people bringing them in have no knowledge of the state of the battery health which is a great bargaining factor for me.
In my way of thinking the most important item for an EV is the battery pack.
There are no commercial aftermarket solutions available, so it is not economically feasible nor possible to repair or replace a pack. The estimated cost for Mits to replace the pack is more than the car is worth.
So a car with a degraded low-capacity pack would need to be discounted heavily and would still not be considered a bargain.
With 4 cars available in your area it is a buyer's market for you, so hopefully you can sort thru them to get the best one.
There are no commercial aftermarket solutions available, so it is not economically feasible nor possible to repair or replace a pack. The estimated cost for Mits to replace the pack is more than the car is worth.
So a car with a degraded low-capacity pack would need to be discounted heavily and would still not be considered a bargain.
With 4 cars available in your area it is a buyer's market for you, so hopefully you can sort thru them to get the best one.
DBMandrake
Well-known member
I have a strong suspicion that the BMU doesn't actually measure the internal cell resistance of individual cells (even though it could) and that this figure is purely calculated from a lookup table based on cell temperature sensor readings. In other words it assumes the cell resistance based on how the cell should perform at a given temperature.kiev said:
I've monitored this figure a lot and it only seems to correlate with differences in cell temperature. Prior to replacing some cells in my pack I had three cells that had obviously higher than normal internal resistance due to them going to maximum voltage well before other cells during a rapid charge, (reaching 4.105 volts even at 20% SoC after less than a minute charging) and yet there was never any spread indicated between minimum and maximum resistance, with warm cell resistance being 1.5mO.
After replacing the suspect cells the "new" cells now maintain a significantly lower voltage than others during rapid charging (suggesting they actually have lower internal resistance than the remaining original cells) and yet the minimum and maximum resistance values quoted by the BMU have not changed and still just relate to cell temperature.
So I don't think any useful information about the true health of the cells can be gleaned from the internal resistance figures if they are just derived from cell temperature with a lookup table.
There are only three useful stats for looking at the condition of the battery pack in my opinion:
1) Reported overall Ah figure.
2) The voltage balance between cells at 10-30% SoC after a full balancing charge can be used to identify weak cells with low capacity. (The voltage balance above 40% is more or less meaningless, and no inference should be taken from a good balance at a high SoC)
3) The voltage balance between cells at a low SoC a couple of minutes into a Chademo rapid charging session can be used to identify cells with high internal resistance as these will quickly go to the maximum 4.105 volts at high charge current long before other cells that are healthy.
DBMandrake
Well-known member
Totally agree.kiev said:
Don't buy a car with an unusually degraded battery pack. I'd rather avoid buying one at all if I couldn't afford the cost of one with a reasonable battery pack. 34Ah is reasonable, 27Ah is not - the 27Ah pack is well into the range where rapid degradation will be occurring if not outright cell failures.
Another thing to consider is how much yearly mileage will you be doing and how long do you want to keep the car. You need to think about how the battery will be at the end of your anticipated ownership after the mileage you're expecting to do and whether the range will still be sufficient for your needs.
I'm actually strongly considering selling mine and moving on to something a bit better with a bit more range next year (a year earlier than I originally planed) as I do a high mileage and the battery has unfortunately degraded a lot more than I was expecting to the point where I can't make my 35 mile commute in winter without a brief rapid charge on the way home...and that's with the current 33.5Ah. 2 1/2 years ago when the battery was at 39.9Ah I could make the winter journey without stopping to charge.
Buying something with a known poor battery at any price is folly in my opinion. Once the battery is unusable and cannot be repaired by swapping one or just a few individual cells it is not economic to repair. Get the best battery you can afford or don't bother and look for a different kind of car altogether.
DBMandrake said:
Hey DBMandrake,
Thanks for the input. My expected commute will be around 20-30 miles round trip at most, I plan to put on around 7-8 thousand miles on the car and hoping to have the car for 3-4 years. Is this a feasible plan to have and not have the battery die on me in the process? I also have a private warm garage and will only charge at home.
DBMandrake
Well-known member
7-8 thousand miles in total or per year ?
I bought mine at 28k miles, at that time the battery health was 39.9Ah and it would do about 63 miles in summer and 43 miles in winter.
It's now at 58k miles so I've done about 30k miles, the battery is now down to around 33.5Ah and can now only do 55 miles in summer and about 37 miles in winter. As my daily commute is 35 miles at minimum this has become a problem for me, so I'm now having to charge on the way home in winter every day...
For a bit of a reality check, the 27Ah car you were originally considering would not even make your 30 mile journey in winter if my experience is anything to go by.
Is your commute slow city roads or motorway driving ?
DBMandrake said:
Sorry I didn’t clarify. I will be doing 7-8 thousand miles per year. Looking to put on about 30K miles on it in 4 years. My commute will be either 90% highway or I can do a shorter route which will be 90% city. Which is better recommended?
Hi Bilych,
Since 1971 I've been driving on the slow side as an environmentally sensible choice.
For me, choosing a highway or city route is based on multiple factors.
The I-MiEV has a fair amount of wind drag, which really affects energy use at high speed.
Generally speaking, cars go farther at slower speeds.
This is often more obvious with electric cars than gas/diesel.
A highway trip at modest speeds can take less energy than a
city trip with lots of stopping and getting back up to speed.
A plus for electrics is no engine idling at stoplights.
A negative can be energy drawn for the heater or AC while sitting at a long light.
(We mostly just use the heated seats. And the defroster some as needed.)
Then there's the hassle factor - is a bunch of stopping and turning worth saving a couple hundred watts-hours?
If one route consistently takes seven bars and another eight bars, I'll
mostly take the seven bar route.
Thanks and good health, Weogo
Since 1971 I've been driving on the slow side as an environmentally sensible choice.
For me, choosing a highway or city route is based on multiple factors.
The I-MiEV has a fair amount of wind drag, which really affects energy use at high speed.
Generally speaking, cars go farther at slower speeds.
This is often more obvious with electric cars than gas/diesel.
A highway trip at modest speeds can take less energy than a
city trip with lots of stopping and getting back up to speed.
A plus for electrics is no engine idling at stoplights.
A negative can be energy drawn for the heater or AC while sitting at a long light.
(We mostly just use the heated seats. And the defroster some as needed.)
Then there's the hassle factor - is a bunch of stopping and turning worth saving a couple hundred watts-hours?
If one route consistently takes seven bars and another eight bars, I'll
mostly take the seven bar route.
Thanks and good health, Weogo
