Are the 2012 models getting too risky?

[wmcbrine]

Does the i-Miev have the issues that the Leaf has had with cars in hot locations and battery life?

My understanding is that the i-MiEV has much better battery cooling than the Leaf, and consequently fewer problems of this nature. But I'm just going by forum comments.

 

[MalcolmReynolds]

Joe, That is a good question about the full warranty. I am emailing them now for clarification on that point. The carfax implies that the car hasn't been titled. So I will ask that question. If that is the case then I think this would be a great candidate and I will want to move quickly on that. If there isn't a warranty then I need to get the battery and health sorted out. Still waiting on a reply from for my previous questions.

UPDATE: The dealer replied that that the car was titled by them so the 3yr/36k and other coverage has already expired. Asking for a battery report and if they are LEV50 cells.

UPDATE 2: The sales rep has never heard of LEV50 cells and doesn't know what I am talking about. The manufacture date is 3/08/2012. He says he only has one i-Miev certified mechanic there who can getthe battery report. He is just trying to get some time with him to get me the battery info. So that is the hold up getting the info on the battery.

 

[Don]

*Usually* the car's warranty begins the day the car it titled and the dealer puts it into 'service' - I've bought used vehicles that the dealer didn't sell for a year or 18 months and then they titled them and began using them as 'demos' or 'service vehicles' and there's lots of the 3/36 warranty left because the car wasn't used when it was new for a year or more

It would be very unusual for a dealer to be able to insure and use a car without titleing it, but I suppose anything is possible. I would look into that a lot more . . . . who would insure a car without it being titled? . . . . and for 20,000 miles???

Don

 

[MalcolmReynolds]

I don't understand the situation with the warranty since the car was never sold to a consumer and does not get reported to carfax like a normal transaction. I guess it doesn't matter, the dealer says the warranty is expired, and I just looked at the carfax again and it also says the warranty is expired. So they must have done something that started the warranty with Mitsubishi.

So I am treating it as a "used" car at this point and hoping the out the door price and the battery report are good. This car has the nav system so if it looks good I would ask them to make sure the maps and firmware are updated. I also just asked if all the recalls and service bulletins stuff has been done. Still waiting to hear back on those questions. It will depend on how many dealer fees and stuff they are tacking on.

The 2014 I am looking at the dealer has agreed to drop the dealer handling fees and all of that to get me out the door for the price listed online. So that is looking pretty good also. But the question is there $2k difference in value between a 2014 and a 2012? What do you guys think?

 

[JoeS]

...But the question is there $2k difference in value between a 2014 and a 2012? What do you guys think?

2012 SE with Nav (and thus CHAdeMO) and 20K miles vs. 2014 ('better'? cells) with 13K miles and CHAdeMO standard. I'd go with the 2014 for $2K more.

Unknown, is how the battery in each of these two vehicles was treated. Two years more of battery warranty on the 2014.

Shipping, registration/taxes in your state, and ancillary fees might alter the equation. Call up your insurance company and see what the premiums for each would be.

 

[wmcbrine]

But the question is there $2k difference in value between a 2014 and a 2012? What do you guys think?

AFAIK they're the same year to year. It would be down to individual differences (CHAdeMO or not, Nav or not, mileage, etc.).

 

[Don]

I agree - For $2K more and 7,000 fewer miles with 2 more years of battery warranty, I'd go with the 2014 too, no question. Which raises the question . . . . what's the 'magic number' where you prefer the 2012? $3500 maybe??

Don

 

[elekTrond]

If NA/USDM market follows the same upgrade tempo as euro/JDM, then you should look for a mid-2012 and up - in order to receive the LEV50N cells. They are rated for 1,500 cycles vs. 500 or so cycles for the old one.

Is that quoted from official documentation? I'm not sure what cells my 2012 has (probably LEV50 though it it does appear to be a facelifted car Vs my parents '12 car - various differences to trim and controls, both front seats heated etc).

500 cycles seems very low for this type of cell - if charging daily, that would mean the pack is rated for about 2 years worth of 5-day weeks... and only about 500 x 80 miles: 40,000 miles tops (which may translate).

I was under the impression that the LEV50 cycle duty was in the order of 1500 cycles or so, which would effectively mean about 3 charges a week for 10 years.... but I really don't remember where I read that... though I only charge it once a week anyway mostly.

In addition, it's worth defining what cycle duty actually means, is that to 95% residual, less than that, or effective useful end?

Sorry for late answering. I had to look it up and refresh my memory. :? I was so wrong about the 1500 vs 500 cycles. And I hate wronging. :?

:arrow: LEV50N is supposed to last a whopping 5,500 cycles! LEV50N is our Lizard battery. According to fig. 9 in 009_01_026.pdf does N keep the same or better residual capacity after a thousand full cycles in 45°C, as the old one at a lukewarm 25°C.

About cycle duty:
From the top of my head, one full charging cycle takes a cell from 0% to 100%. You choose how to fulfill that cycle. Both 50->100% times two or 33->66% times three, are valid charging patterns as they add up to 100% SOC - or one full cycle of 100% DOD followed by a full, 100% charge.

Check out pushevs.com/2015/11/04/gs-yuasas-improved-cells-lev50-vs-lev50n
which in turn links to:

• gs-yuasa.com/en/technic/vol5/pdf/05_1_021.pdf
• gs-yuasa.com/en/technic/vol9/pdf/009_01_026.pdf
• (link rot) donar.messe.de/exhibitor/hannovermesse/2014/R732819/yuasa-li-ion-battery-datasheet-eng-295494.pdf
• hightechindustryinjapan.blogspot.no/2012/03/no-458-longer-lasting-lithium-ion.html

Since I could not find the origin of Pedro Lima@pushev's 5,500 cycle claim, I had to dig deeper. By searching for the rotten "datasheet-eng-295494.pdf", I found this french forum post:

Si c'est un vrai, je suis sur le cul!
Cycle de vie: 5500 à 80%
Durée de vie: 10 ans pour 1000 cycles
SIMPLEMENT HALLUCINANT !!!

Source: automobile-propre.com/forums/citroen-c-zero-peugeot-ion-mitsubishi-imiev/evolution-batteries-t4213.html

 

[elekTrond]

[...]The entire pack has a specific energy of 80 Wh/kg.[25] [...]

Interesting how much the cradle weight drags down the energy density.

[...]and the specific energy is 109 Wh kg-1 and 99 Wh kg-1 for cell and battery module, respectively. [...]

Sauce: http://www.gs-yuasa.com/en/technic/vol5/pdf/05_1_021.pdf

UPDATE: The dealer replied that that the car was titled by them so the 3yr/36k and other coverage has already expired. Asking for a battery report and if they are LEV50 cells.

UPDATE 2: The sales rep has never heard of LEV50 cells and doesn't know what I am talking about. The manufacture date is 3/08/2012. He says he only has one i-Miev certified mechanic there who can getthe battery report. He is just trying to get some time with him to get me the battery info. So that is the hold up getting the info on the battery.

I thought NA USDM i's had first eight, and then ten years of warranty?

3/08 means March 8th., right? (Thats why I prefer the YYYY-MM-DD standard ... : ) At first I interpreted it to august and thought heey, LEV50N on board! According to this newsletter, you should probably skip that 2012 car. Is it a MY12 or MY13, btw? Does is have two heated seats? Black or brown upholstry? ACC/heating remote?

Does that 2014 model have LED headlamps like our euro-MiEV's got? And those pesky TPMS sensors?

 

[PV1]

If you have the VIN, you can create an account on Mitsubishi's website and add that VIN to your "Garage". It will list warranties and service history.

Given the choice, I'd go with a 2014 model. Among other things, it's guaranteed to have the LEV50N cells and quick charging. I've also heard reports that the 2014 has slightly better build quality/fit and finish. It's definitely better equipped than even a 2012 SE Premium, with both front seats being heated (unless Bluetooth/Nav is a big deal for you).

As for warranty, US I-MiEVs originally shipped with 3-year/36,000 mile "new vehicle warranty" (basically, the whole car), 5-year/60,000 mile powertrain warranty, and 8-year/100,000 mile battery warranty (covers failures, not degradation). However, in 2015, many if not all US owners received letters stating the battery warranty was bumped up to 10-years/100,000 miles. It's not very clear if this covers all US I-MiEVs or 2012 models only.

 

[MalcolmReynolds]

Does the heated steering wheel come in the ES? Or was that reserved for the SE models in the 2012? I looked to see in Joe's post about the SE vs ES post, but I didn't see any mention of it. So I was curious if that was not available in the ES.

 

[JoeS]

There was no heated steering wheel on any 2012 i-MiEV. I forget, was that a feature on the 2014/2016 i-MiEV? Need to update the post comparing the 2012 ES and SE and expand it to include the 2014/2016 models. http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3228

Unfortunately, I don't have sales brochures for those years (did they even have them?). Need to poke around this forum to find that stuff...

 

[Aerowhatt]

Two 2014's here . . . ES is the only model offered for 2014, 2016, 2017. The steering wheel is not heated on either of ours. Twin seat heaters and DCQC standard though.

Aerowhatt

 

[MalcolmReynolds]

Thanks guys, not sure where I thought I saw something about a heated wheel. Maybe just mixing up stuff from looking at the Leaf stuff a while ago. I appreciate the feedback.

 

[Don]

Not heated and not tilt/telescoping either, though I do read all kinds of 'For Sale' ads where they claim it is :lol:

Don

 

[MalcolmReynolds]

Not heated and not tilt/telescoping either, though I do read all kinds of 'For Sale' ads where they claim it is :lol:

Don

I have been watching the ads for one with a "Flux Capacitor and a 1.21 gigawatt range extender", but haven't seen one yet... LOL

 

[ecco]

HI I'm in New Zealand and looking at a japanese imported i-miev, 2012, 18,000kmh, 10kwh battery, $14,000. Just wondering can anyone tell me how you can tell if the charger is mode one or mode two. I was told to make sure it was mode two so that it can charge in a normal socket in a NZ house. Thanks

 

[phb10186]

HI I'm in New Zealand and looking at a japanese imported i-miev, 2012, 18,000kmh, 10kwh battery, $14,000. Just wondering can anyone tell me how you can tell if the charger is mode one or mode two. I was told to make sure it was mode two so that it can charge in a normal socket in a NZ house. Thanks

You mean a Japanese exported I-Miev, at Japanese domestic spec? - as all cars for all global markets were made in Japan.

Good question, According to wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country) Japan amazingly uses 100V mains domestic, which would translate to Level 1 charging. NZ, like the UK uses 230/240V - so unless the car is equipped with dual voltage capability, i cant answer it. The 10KWh model was Japanese domestic only, and who knows what on-board charger setup its got, especially as they use 100V mains. So, i'd be led to believe the wall charger won't work (whether a NZ supplied IMIEV charger would work is another question), a Level 2 wall charger going J1772 (Type 1) to Type 2 may or may not work, but the CHAdeMO charging would work, as it's a defined standard. Personally, i'd assume it will not work until you can test it, and then return it if it doesn't work - but if its in Japan, only being sent to you if you buy - i'd look elsewhere. Bottom line is that it is dependent on the cars internal charger. The US spec cars are compatible with Level 1 110v and level 2 240v via the correct charging cable, but that does not mean a JDM car has that functionality - although the first cars tested in the US were JDM spec, and they must have charged them somehow - so it poses the question. I couldn't tell you if my UK spec car would work with Level 1 110v domestic, but I know that the OEM supplied EVSE wall charger would not work.

So to summarise (and be happy to be corrected):
1. The EVSE wall outlet charger supplied with the car in Japan will not work in NZ (it may be able to be modified, but if the car itself cant take 240v, then it still won't work)
2. ChAdeMO will definitely work
3. L2 charging via the typically installed 240v charge points may or may not work, depending on the charger setup in the car - and that's the biggest issue for you, as most people with EVs I know utilise this method of charging.

If the cars on-board charger can handle 240v, then 1 and 3 become possible. If its 100v only, sadly you'll be very limited.

If you were adament, you could step down a wall outlet to 100v using a transformer for 230-100v, and swapping out the supplied charger plug for a NZ wall socket, but that would be somewhat pointless, as you'll be converting an effective Level 2 voltage down to level 1, and doubling your charge time.

If you use 240v domestic mains power, then that domestic mains is L2 by default, and a 3.5-4h empty to full charge time on a 10kw/h pack at level 2 (charging at 3.3 KWh/h, and then slowing as it nears full adding another 30-60 mins).

I've not seen any of the 10KWh packs mentioned before, but from what i've read, it's a different form of Li-ion battery suited to more frequent rapid charging (CHAdeMO) - so a car designed for shorter overall range, but repeated recharges. Never seen one of these in the UK, or any Japanese grey import IMIEV here in the UK. However, I have seen Japanese grey imported Leafs being used in the UK, and thats a similar situation to this one... and they must have got them working somehow. Have a read of this, it's quite pertinent for you: https://samholford.github.io/leafguide/

"An original Nissan EVSE (15A) from Japan needs modification for use in NZ, either by replacing the Japanese plug with a caravan plug, or by faulting it into a lower amperage (both should be done by an electrician). Replacing the Japanese plug directly with a standard NZ plug will cause overheating and melting of your socket."

If the 16KWh pack is rated for 70 miles, then a 10Kw/h pack calculates to 43.75 miles at full. Not accounting for winter drop, degredatory losses over time etc etc.

I would guess that this pack was suited for Japanese urban use, whereby the car is only moving at 10-30mph for most of the day, in places with readily available rapid charging facilities. Taking a car with a 44 mile range out of that environment requires careful consideration of intended use, as you will be extremely limited with the small maximum range - though having said that, if its a second car local runaround, it may still serve you well for most of your local journeys.

I'd not be hesitant about the pack integrity, as the mileage is low - but I'd be wary of buying a car with that sort of range, as I find the 16KWh pack only just enough. For highway travelling, you are extremely limited indeed, perhaps even prevented, as at 70mph, I'd estimate the range at no more than 30-35 miles at best - put the heater on in winter, and thats going to plummet by about 25-30% at a guess..

That car equates to £7k (OK the £ is very weak at the moment) - but a domestic supplied vehicle with a 16KWh pack at that age and mileage would be about 20% cheaper here... but i dont know the NZ used car market and tax situation.

 

[ecco]

Thanks Phb for your advice which I found very helpful. I did find out that the car can be charged from a normal household point. However your advice on the short range of the car is good to know. It would only be a second car for around town. We don't have any NZ new imiev here as Mitsubishi nz stopped offering them as they couldn't compete with the Japanese imported ones. I will look round for a 16kwh imiev I think.

 

[phb10186]

Thanks Phb for your advice which I found very helpful. I did find out that the car can be charged from a normal household point. However your advice on the short range of the car is good to know. It would only be a second car for around town. We don't have any NZ new imiev here as Mitsubishi nz stopped offering them as they couldn't compete with the Japanese imported ones. I will look round for a 16kwh imiev I think.

Makes sense... if there aRE a lot if JDM ones in NZ then that might be proof that they will work with the lead mods.

Yeah... stick to 16kwh. BTW, if you can find a late or post 2012, they updated batteries, which are better than the older ones as far as duty cycling and longevity goes... have a read around the foum: LEV50N cells Vs the older LEV50 cells. Problem is, noone knows the exact build date of VIN numbers... but there is a label in a hard to find place somewhere on the rear of the pack... another consideration for you.