PREPARATION FOR COLD SEASONS

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siai47 said:
My "preparation for cold seasons" would take an additional path. Other then the heating problems (which are a comfort issue), the most damaging thing to this vehicle is going to be corrosion from ice melting substances used in the Winter. Salt and liquid chloride along with sand and cinder style mixes are going to cause havoc over the next few years. There are so many parts exposed to the weather that are thin, poorly painted metal parts that, if I was operating in these envorinments, I would really be proactive about keeping ahead of the damage that will occur. Many parts used in this vehicle are just bare metal with no protection at all. Even the main body components are of very thin gauge material. Everyone needs to keep the underbody flushed with a minimum of soap and water at regular intervals during the Winter. You should start the season with a good inspection of the car making sure there are no paint chips (and this goes for the underbody). Give the car a good wax job--including the door jams and the underside of the doors. A couple of cans of Rustoleum paint would go along way to help the "black" painted metal parts where the paint is coming off at any weld joint (front subframe and rear motor mount)---don't get spray paint, just a small can and a brush---there is no need for a show car finish. A wax type rustproofing should be added to the doors, hood and liftgate. A product like "Tectyl" or a rustproofing compound that has it as part of it's formulation would be perfect in this application. A heavier product should be sprayed on the underbody in the area between the rocker panels and the frame where the majority of crud gets thrown up by the front tires. Speaking of rocker panels, you cannot see them on the I-MiEV but the plastic covers can sure trap a lot of dirt and salt residue in that area that needs to be flushed out. Again I stess products like "Saltaway" are good a neturalizing the effects of road salt and chloride. At the end of the season, the plastic traction battery covers need to be removed (I would go as far as to take the splash liners out of the wheelwells) and the entire underbody needs to be flushed. If this kind of stuff isn't done (and on a modern car you shouldn't have to) I think there will be serious rust problems with these cars within five years. BTW--make sure any insulation material you might add in confined spaces are not ones that can absorb or trap water. Be extra careful not to block any drain holes during installation or matters will get really bad quickly.

+1 to this info. :)

I've written about this in another thread titled "Corrosion". Over the summer, I've gone through the underbody and brushed off any loose paint and recoated with rustoleum primer and undercoating. I'm going to be purchasing the Salt-Away soon. I've also covered all of the sheet metal on the front of the car where all of the nicks are from rocks and road hash with 3M 1080 Vinyl and I've covered the roof as well. Next summer, remove all of the plastic underbits and check for corrosion again.
 
jaraczs said:
alohart said:
A Webasto parking heater brochure indicates that the small car model consumes about 0.5 lph of fuel at full 4,200 watt output.
Regarding Eberspaecher, they sell under Espar brand in North America:
http://www.espar.com/products/fuel-...uct-selection/coolant-heaters/hydronic-4.html
I was able to contact Webasto North America via 800-860-7866. They gave me contact information for a local dealer (6 miles from my home), which is Truck repair company. This dealer gave me quotation for Webasto diesel heater part # 5010203A (I believe Thermo Top Evo 4) for $1,344.56 plus tax. The dealer also gave me another phone number to Webasto - 800-432-8371.

In regard of Espar, I have contacted regional sales person Dale Peay dpeay[at]espar.com, who connected me to Eastern US regional representative Allan Webb awebb[at]espar.com, who identified a local Truck repair company for me (8 miles from my home). This local dealer gave me quotation for diesel Hydronic D5 SC kit, part# 252823250520 for $814 plus tax (6 weeks availability!!). Espar no longer manufactures Hydronic 4 (slightly lower max power, same dimensions). Hydronic 5 has 2.4/5 kW dual stage heating power. It comes with internal water pump and external fuel pump. The heater will fit either at the front left just behind the splash shield (Norwegian style) or in place of the original PTC heater (my preferred choice).

Regarding fuel tank, I have made detailed search about compatibility of packaging material with diesel fuel (Diesel is safer than gasoline) as well as regulatory aspects. Aluminum is fine. PETE plastic bottle (from beverage) looks pretty compatible as well although you may consider using it for one season only and it is not approved material legally. Also, we want to be sure the tank is easy to refill and is not too far from the heater.

The main Espar harness connects to 12V battery (20A fuse) and the switch can be hooked up to the OEM water pump connector. The heater starts with check sequence, followed by ignition. Heating will start at full power and then cycle between the two stages and standby, trying to keep the water temperature between 75C and 85C. We control heat inside of the car with the fan.
 
In Costco yesterday and came across something called a Lava Seat. Stick it into a microwave oven for a few minutes to heat it and it allegedly stays warm for four hours. Just the thing for you Northerners without chargepoints at work to put into your office microwave oven before leaving for home. Also suitable for your passengers.

http://www.amazon.com/Lava-Seat-Quilted-Microwave-Sporting/dp/B009CPC606

I see something similar called Lava Buns

I have no idea if they're any good, but sure seem easy and quite inexpensive.
 
alohart said:
Regarding fuel tank, I have made detailed search about compatibility of packaging material with diesel fuel (Diesel is safer than gasoline) as well as regulatory aspects. Aluminum is fine. PETE plastic bottle (from beverage) looks pretty compatible as well although you may consider using it for one season only and it is not approved material legally. Also, we want to be sure the tank is easy to refill and is not too far from the heater.
For a fuel tank, I think the best solution is to use something that is designed for the hobby industry. There is a huge selection of relatively small tanks that are designed to be used for fuel, be it gasoline or nitro-methanol, in various shapes and sizes. Here is a sample:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/Toys-Hobbies-/220/i.html?_sop=1&_fln=1&_catref=1&_vxp=mtr&_nkw=boat+fuel+tanks

Great info on Webasto and Espar, thank you!

Since this will be my first winter with the i, I think I will stick it out with the stock set-up and see how it works first before I tinker with the car. So far, the small amount of heat I use in the current weather (below 40 F in the mornings usually) just to keep windows de-fogged and myself reasonably comfortable does not seem to be impacting my range much.
 
HParkEV said:
Since this will be my first winter with the i, I think I will stick it out with the stock set-up and see how it works first before I tinker with the car.
Me, too. I want to see how bad it really is in the winter, if it is at all, before I start spending time, money, and effort to make it mo bettah.
 
Not much.

Only I put a set of steel rims with winter tires.

In my area we usually see snow only 3-4 times each winter. But we have a lot of water, cold and sometimes ice.

I like the performance of winter tires compared to standard, with cold and water, without having to wait for the snow. Ecotires have already given me a little scare in water.

First impressions: more noisy and worse initial RR number, but better cold handling (I put slighty lower pressures than summer tires)
 
I have completed the installation of combustion heater this weekend. It works as anticipated. Stay tuned for full report and installation procedure. Credit to FiddlerJohn for providing iMiEV manual and help on seamless incorporation of the combustion heater into the vehicle heating control.
View from the front-right:
10961794693_8036c0bf0e_c.jpg


View from front-left:
10961630776_ea6e0c063a_c.jpg
 
Has anyone tried a ceramic heater? I've seen one around here on a Leaf.

It feeds 12V, 300w. It may not be very effective, but... ??

Examples:

http://www.amazon.com/Max-Burton-Volt-Ceramic-Heater/dp/B003ZJ04P4

http://www.pfjones.co.uk/ptc-ceramic-in-cab-heater-12v-300w-auto-heater-fan.html
 
jaraczs said:
I have completed the installation of combustion heater this weekend. It works as anticipated. Stay tuned for full report and installation procedure. Credit to FiddlerJohn for providing iMiEV manual and help on seamless incorporation of the combustion heater into the vehicle heating control.
Is this the heater you used?

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Liquid-Parking-Heater-webasto-Eberspaecher-water-heater-diesel-truck-heater-diesel-bus-heater-RV-heater-hydronic/715147472.html

Don
 
Don said:
Is this the heater you used?
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Liquid-Parking-Heater-webasto-Eberspaecher-water-heater-diesel-truck-heater-diesel-bus-heater-RV-heater-hydronic/715147472.html

Don

Bingo, Don. Exactly that one. And the coolest thing about it is, if you feed it with ethanol, it works just as good (with lower Btu) and it does not smell badly.
Stan
 
jaraczs said:
Don said:
Is this the heater you used?
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Liquid-Parking-Heater-webasto-Eberspaecher-water-heater-diesel-truck-heater-diesel-bus-heater-RV-heater-hydronic/715147472.html

Don

Bingo, Don. Exactly that one. And the coolest thing about it is, if you feed it with ethanol, it works just as good (with lower Btu) and it does not smell badly.
Stan

Looking forward to your full report. Very interested in how you got this to work with the existing heater controls. Does the remote options work as described on the website? How was the purchase process? Looks like your replaced the OEM heater with this model. Did you also remove the water tank under the hood?
 
MLucas said:
Looking forward to your full report. Very interested in how you got this to work with the existing heater controls. Does the remote options work as described on the website? How was the purchase process? Looks like your replaced the OEM heater with this model. Did you also remove the water tank under the hood?
Thank you Lucas,
I did not install the heater's dedicated remote but the heater turns on when the vehicle is plugged-in and the preheat is operated via iMiEV's remote.
Yes, I removed the original PTC heater completely but I did not remove the water tank and I also left the original water pump in series.
Although I am thrilled to have this modification, I am experiencing some issues, possibly related to the vehicle's AC controller outsmarting my fakeout. Sometimes it takes 2 attempts to get the heater started. I am also trying to heat the battery pack but the warmup is slow and very uneven. I am watching the pack's temperature with Canion.
 
This is very exciting and a great mod to the car, probably the ultimate in extending range in the winter. I would like to do the same although I would like to keep the electric heater and only use the fossil fuel one as required.

Is this your first or second winter ?

With canion I noticed a lot of thermal inertia in our pack it takes hours for it to drop to ambient temp when it's heated which is good news for the cold but I guess heating a very cold battery would also take a lot of time perhaps hours. Perhaps you can comment.

I look forward to hearing more about your modification.

Don.......
 
DonDakin said:
Is this your first or second winter ?

With canion I noticed a lot of thermal inertia in our pack ...

Don.......
Don, this is my second winter.
Agree about the thermal retention. Heating by charging provides probably the most even warm up.
I noticed that when I start preheating (by blowing warm air into the battery pack) when average temp. reads 10C (50F), it takes maybe 20 minutes after which the average temperature reads 17C (63F) and the hottest cell is #51 with 29C (84F) while the coldest are #28 and #29 at 11C (52F). At this point I stop blowing the hot air into the pack.
Stan
 
Hey Stan thanks for the info,

My first winter I was on L1 and I made it but with lots of planning. This winter I have L2 so I'm planning to use more electric heat and recharge more. I'm slowly working my way up to what you have already done. I did install a 150/250 watt 12 volt heater that I can move around in the car mainly for the people in the back for the feet but I use it sometimes in the front for myself. We don't have any snow yet but when it comes shortly I will have my boots with the heated insole which are great.

It's promising to hear you can raise the temp 7 deg c in 20 minutes in the pack. My first thought is that the temp sensors are reflecting the air temp more then the cell temp in pack. I don't know how embedded the temp sensors are in there. But is sounds wise what you are doing if you can keep the hottest cells below 30 deg c that's probably a good idea.

Perhaps some way to cycle the air in the pack would help with temp distribution. Not injecting heat but just moving the air around.

Getting even temps in the pack will be the next challenge now that you have all the heat you need.

Fantastic mod thanks for sharing. If you have more photos and descriptions please post.

Don......
 
Some impressive mods here, well done and thanks for sharing.

Really annoyed that the remote was simply not an available option on my Citroen C- zero which I otherwise find fantastic.
I have used a low tech solution, plugging this 55W/ 220 V heating element with an extension cable coming out the trunk lid and leaving on overnight at the passenger footwell. It has been as low as 2 Degrees Celsius all last week and the car is nice and warm although not hot in the morning, despite being kept outside.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hylite-HHT205-Slimline-Heater-thermostat/dp/B007W0WV1M
 
DaveMiller said:
I think using the heater (and the air condition come summer) without skimping to save charge is what relieves the range anxiety for me. The heater in my I-Miev works better than I expected. I feel warmth much sooner than in our gas car. I now use the IMiev heater like my gas car and plug in when I get home.
After 18 months of ownership, I *wish* I could speak that complimentarily about the car's heating system - We never feel what I would call 'warmth' no matter how we have the controls set. It's the one major disappointment to EV ownership in my eyes, and it doesn't even get really cold down here. I honestly wonder how you guys in colder northern climes manage to live with it

I'm seriously considering replacing it with a fuel burning heater since it never gets warm enough to make much difference in our comfort level and especially because it can't seem to keep the windows defogged when we have 4 living, breathing people in the car - It's become a running joke of sorts for us - "OK, who is still breathing in here - I told you guys to cut that OUT!!" :lol:

It's easy enough to recharge the car at frequent intervals - Range anxiety/awareness has never been a problem for us but the battery is only going to recharge just so many times before it needs to be replaced and since I do hope to put a couple hundred thousand miles on this car, a fuel burning heater would partially pay for itself by making the battery last longer . . . . and my wife wouldn't complain if we could actually get WARM in the car for a change

Don (whose last name also happens to be 'Miller')
 
Stan,

I'm interested in how you feel the new heater is working out as I'm considering buying the same one

It's rated at 5 Kw, the same as the car's onboard electric heater - How do the two compare? Does the parking heater provide as much or more heat and how quickly does it warm up? Don't think I would go to the trouble unless it significantly outperforms the car's stock heater

I think I would keep the OEM heater in place (I'd rather preheat with electricity than have a kerosene fire going on in my garage) so I would probably have to relocate things a bit under the hood to make room for it. Since I don't have the QC option, I would really like to use the QC door on the drivers side of the car to refill the fuel tank

I saw the feedback you left for the vendor - Any other comments about them or about the heater you'd care to share?

Thanks!

Don
 
Don said:
I'm interested in how you feel the new heater is working out as I'm considering buying the same one

I saw the feedback you left for the vendor - Any other comments about them or about the heater you'd care to share?
Don, Thanks for asking.
All of these will be a part of final report. In short, based on my canion evaluation, the PTC heater would never run continuously at 5kW and it would not heat the fluid to 85C because it is designed for lower max temperature (from your shared info on PTC heater in this forum). The parking heater is shooting for 75C-85C temperature range so, it will always appear stronger than the original PTC heater.
The parking heater needs some time to fire up so, the heating onset is delayed by 3-4 minutes.
I think it is a great idea to use the DC port for the fuel. Leaving PTC heater in place will make the project a little bit more complicated but most people want to keep it, anyway.

I have asked the vendor about the technical difference between gasoline and diesel version. They replied that it is the software. I guess the fuel flow rate has to match the air flow and since those fuels have different energy density, these should be different.
And they have very attractive bulk pricing!
Stan
 
Don said:
After 18 months of ownership, I *wish* I could speak that complimentarily about the car's heating system - We never feel what I would call 'warmth' no matter how we have the controls set. It's the one major disappointment to EV ownership in my eyes, and it doesn't even get really cold down here.

Don, I fear there's something amiss with your i, as I have no qualms saying that the car can get downright toasty! I'm in the school building management business and my custodians are not allowed to submit a cold room complaint without actual thermometer readings included, so here goes; measurements via Fluke 568 with thermocouple, not IR.

After parking for 80 minutes in 37 degree ambient air, my heater restarted at 50 degrees F, no air recirculation. Within 3 minutes, discharge air was 104 degrees. I then set it to recirculate and discharge air temp hit 121 degrees two minutes later, so I stopped the test. That should be warm in anyone's book.
 
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