PREPARATION FOR COLD SEASONS

[DonDakin]

Robbw,

You should be fine.

I did a video last winter at -25

It was cold as hell but the imiev made my trip no problem

http://youtu.be/5h7i1GqZueU


Let us know how things go

Don......

 

[joev]

Once the warranty is up I plan on taking the hose that goes from the reservoir in the rear of the car and re-plumbing it thru the cabin with a section of slant fin baseboard hot water pipe and a couple of valves to control it (valves for bypass in the summer). Now when its charging I will get the wasted heat in the cabin (for a preheat) before it goes to the radiator for cooling and maybe even when the car is turned on. WHAT DO YOU THINK?

 

[MLucas]

General reply to all that is going around in this thread recently.

Fogged Windows: I used a Rain-X anti-fog treatment last winter and had pretty good luck with it. This way I didn't have to defog so much and once it was defogged it stayed that way. I noticed a difference between the windshield and the side windows where I didn't apply the anti-fog treatment because I have tinted windows and the instructions say don't use it on them. I feel it works and helps keep the defogging down.

Range in Winter: I found I only used 1 or 2 extra bars off the power meter during winter. We have mild winters here in the Niagara region and at most it gets down to -20 C but mostly hovers around 0c (32 F). It's not as severe as one might think as long as the EV driver plans accordingly. We aren't as bad as Montreal or Thunder Bay where the results will be different. Right now, its been between 10 C - 13 C and I'm not seeing any range reduction whatsoever. I don't start worrying about that until I see about 5 C. My battery temp is still in the 20's (C). I do find charging your car before you need it helps to keep the battery temps up and helps with range. I followed this practice last winter and felt it helped with the range. If you can garage your car, do that as well.

Thread for Cold Seasons: I think this is it. We've been using this thread for all of these conversations. Keep it going.

Cold Feet: I plan to install a weather proof heated seat pad underneath the carpeting where my feet are and see how that goes.

 

[Don]

Once the warranty is up I plan on taking the hose that goes from the reservoir in the rear of the car and re-plumbing it thru the cabin with a section of slant fin baseboard hot water pipe and a couple of valves to control it (valves for bypass in the summer). Now when its charging I will get the wasted heat in the cabin (for a preheat) before it goes to the radiator for cooling and maybe even when the car is turned on. WHAT DO YOU THINK?

I doubt you'd notice the difference

Preheating with the L1 960 watt OEM EVSE doesn't do much on a cold day as it is. If we assume you were charging L2 at the max, the charger is 3300 watts and is about 90% efficient, so at the most there might be 330 watts of 'waste heat' in the coolant system and your passive radiator with no fan would be doing very well to recover half of that 330 watts, before the other half of it is dispersed by the radiator and fan outside the car. I just don't think you would notice a 150 watt heat source inside the car on a cold day

I could be wrong though - I think a candle generates about 150 to 200 watts of heat, so you could try (carefully) burning a candle inside the car on a cold day and see how much that warms things up as a test. There are candle-powered 'heaters' that they claim can help warm a cold room in your house when the power is off, so maybe a single candle in a space as small as a car interior would eventually make a difference - The car isn't nearly as well insulated as the house, so more heat would be lost but it still might be enough to make a difference

Don

 

[RobbW]

The temp was a bit in the chilly side on my way into work this morning, around 49°F. Once again, it was enough to cause fogging on the windows due to breathing, but not cold enough to justify using the heater/defroster. After I dropped my kids off at the grandparents' and my wife off at the train station, I decided to crack all the windows slightly. This helped circulate the air in the cabin bringing in fresh air and exhausting the humid air from my breathing. This kept the fog off my windows. However, it also made it quite nippy in the cabin. I was not wearing a jacket as I refuse to give into the fact that summer is over and temps are on their way down. REFUSE I tell you!!! So, instead of resorting to the heater, I decided to try out the driver's seat warmer for the first time.

The seat warmer certainly does a good job of keeping your arse warm, and quickly, too. However, I was disappointed with a couple things about the seat warmer. First (and I already knew this) I was disappointed that Mitsu decided to give only the driver a seat warmer. I'm not sure why they neglecting all the passengers was a good idea, but I am certainly going to feel mighty guilty this winter driving around with a warm booty while my wife and kids have to deal with cold bums.

Second, I was very disappointed to find that only the driver's seat bottom is heated. Why not the whole seat including the back? I would think that having the entire seat (bottom and back) heated would go a long way to keeping the driver more comfortable during colder weather.

So, here's what I'm wondering. Is it possible to add aftermarket seat heaters to the i-MiEV? At the very least, I'd like to install seat heaters for the front passenger seat for my wife. The kids in the back ride in a car seat and a booster. So, seat heaters would do little to help them at this point. It will be nice once they are older, though. Is it possible to add heating elements to the upper back portion of the seats? I'm also wondering about adding foot warmers of some kind, like MLucas mentioned in his post.

If all this is possible, what would be the recommended method for wiring and powering all the heating elements? Would the i-MiEV's 12V system be able to handle any additional heating elements? How do you calculate the drain on the 12V and/or traction battery? Could all these heating elements be wired into either individual switches so they can be controlled by each passenger? At the very least, could they all be wired to the existing driver's seat heater switch?

In the meantime, I am going to try MLucas' anti-fog treatment method. Is RainX the only one out there with such a product? If there are others, is any one brand considered better than the others? Do you apply the treatment both inside and outside? Or only on the inside?

 

[Llecentaur]

I was thinking of adding a seat warmer for driver's back, wired to the existing seat warmer lead. Then buy a heated blanket for passenger, plugged into the 12V lighter.

Having seat covers should help installation.

 

[MLucas]

So, here's what I'm wondering. Is it possible to add aftermarket seat heaters to the i-MiEV? At the very least, I'd like to install seat heaters for the front passenger seat for my wife. The kids in the back ride in a car seat and a booster. So, seat heaters would do little to help them at this point. It will be nice once they are older, though. Is it possible to add heating elements to the upper back portion of the seats? I'm also wondering about adding foot warmers of some kind, like MLucas mentioned in his post.

If all this is possible, what would be the recommended method for wiring and powering all the heating elements? Would the i-MiEV's 12V system be able to handle any additional heating elements? How do you calculate the drain on the 12V and/or traction battery? Could all these heating elements be wired into either individual switches so they can be controlled by each passenger? At the very least, could they all be wired to the existing driver's seat heater switch?

In the meantime, I am going to try MLucas' anti-fog treatment method. Is RainX the only one out there with such a product? If there are others, is any one brand considered better than the others? Do you apply the treatment both inside and outside? Or only on the inside?

RobbW - go traipsing through Amazon for 'Heated Seats' and you'll find all the kits you need to upgrade your car. Here's a nice setup for both front seats: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1389517282&pf_rd_i=507846 Includes the switches and everything you need, its even nicer than the version Mitsubishi supplied with the car as you can have hi-lo. There are many, many options on Amazon and elsewhere for upgrading your seat heating.

This is the floor pad I'm going to install for the feet. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00355RAJQ/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A2JZ704H3A61DA They sell a dual model as well, but I'm the only one that drives it for the distance where I don't use the heat in the car. When the rest of my family is in the car its usually for short distances like around town and I can just use the heat for those trips. For the heated seat, my spouse doesn't like them - says it feels like he's wet himself. Fine with me, saves me money for other farkles.

For your kids in the child seats, you can try something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Wagan-IN9738-...id=1380031575&sr=1-1&keywords=12v+warming+pad Install extra cigarette lighters sockets, probably a good idea to put them in the hatch area away from little hands though and run the cords behind the seats.

Now, about how to hook all of this up. The best thing is a breakout panel with a relay on it. http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Blade-Block/dp/B001P6FTHC/ref=pd_sbs_auto_10 and don't forget the relay. http://www.amazon.com/Metra-Install...&qid=1380032418&sr=1-18&keywords=12v+dc+relay This is an easy convenient way to hook up electrical accessories without vamping off your hot wires or having to stumble around and find a suitable wire to tap into.

Anti-Fog. There are many brands out there, I went with what I knew and gave it a try. It's been working well for me, but you never know how it will work out for you.

 

[Don]

The DC to DC converter for 12 volts is rated at 80 amps, so there should be plenty left for adding additional 12 volt seat heaters. I think you could probably add 10 or 15 amps worth without overloading anything

With 4 of us riding around in the car last winter, fogging up the windows, I got a 'gift' of a bottle of Rain-X anti-fog for Christmas. I guess it worked better for MLucas than it did for us. It gave us a streaky windshield that was harder to see through when the fog came along than before we used it - Plus, it was next to impossible to get off the inside of the glass. We had to wash and wipe the windshield 3 or 4 times to get rid of it

Don

 

[RobbW]

Thanks for the links, MLucas. Viewing those links and then clicking through to other products and then doing Google searches for portable heaters and such, I have so many question on how or if different ideas would work. Therefore, I may be asking a bunch of questions that sound nonsensical or the answer should be blatantly obvious, but I cannot answer them myself. So, I'd appreciate any help.

I liked the idea of the dual-zone seat heaters that you can install inside the seat cover as if it was factory installed. My only concern is how difficult is that going to be? How would you remove the i-MiEV's seat covers in order to install those?

The portable seat heaters that you linked to may work for my older daughter in the back seat. She only rides around in a booster now (just the bottom part). So, her back would certainly get warmed but not too sure how effective the bum warming section would be. I could not use one of those for my 15-month old daughter in her car seat. Fist, it would be too big. Second, I would not feel comfortable with her being in close contact with constant 120°/140° heat. I thought that maybe I could install the heater under her car seat and just hope that enough of the heat would radiate up through the car seat to keep her comfortable. However, I think the seat heater would block access to the LATCH system for the car seat anchors. Plus, with as tightly as you have to install those car seats, I'd be concerned that the car seat may damage the internal wiring of the seat heater.

I did some Google searching for portable heaters specific to DC use in autos. Most of those look all puny, pathetic, and plastic-y. I'm not sure how effective they would be at warming the cabin of the i-MiEV. Then I ran across some links to personal heaters that you can use to warm the area around your desk at work. Some of them looked kind of interesting, especially the Vornado brand heaters with remote controls. The first problem with those is they are all AC plug-in types. So, you'd have to use an inverter in your car outlet to power them. Second, I don't know if the i-MiEV would even have the power to operate one of those running on an inverter, would it? Third, even if the i-MiEV could handle the power requirements, you'd still have to find a safe place inside the cabin to use it. You'd want to keep it far enough away from any seats, doors, or cabin walls to prevent it from being a fire hazard. You'd have to install it in such a fashion that it can move the heated air through the whole cabin but will not tip over or otherwise be unstable.

If I could somehow mitigate all these conditions for using one of these, I'd think that would be my preferred course of action, especially one that has a remote. Another question about one of these would be how much of a drain on the 12V battery and/or traction battery would it be? The smallest Vornado heater they offer has two heat settings, high and low, that use 750 watts and 375 watts, respectively. Would that be enough to keep the cabin comfortable? And how quickly would it drain the battery (running on an inverter)?

 

[siai47]

Be careful on a couple of things with a passenger side seat warmer. First, the airbag occupant sensor is right where the warmer would go---so you have to deal with that unless using a pad on top of the seat cushion. Second, you would need to run a additional circuit to power it. The wires for the existing warmer are increadibly small for the load they are fused for (20 amps). The additional load may cause cabin heating in unwanted areas. You could go to Canada and buy a '13 I-MiEV as I think that (along with a usable EVSE) the passenger seat heater is standard. Maybe you could get the Canadian seat pad as a cheaper alternative. Like I said somewhere, a heated vest that plugs into the power outlet (ex cigarette lighter) will keep you nice and toasty--but your passengers might not approve.

 

[RobbW]

Like I said somewhere, a heated vest that plugs into the power outlet (ex cigarette lighter) will keep you nice and toasty--but your passengers might not approve.

Yeah, personally, I can withstand temperature extremes without too much griping, though I'd prefer to be comfortable. I am more concerned with the riding comfort of my passengers. They certainly wouldn't be too thrilled if I was employing tools and technology to keep myself warm while they suffer. And the answer is NOT going to be getting heated vests for everyone. If we have to go to extremes such as wearing heated vests in the winter in order stay warm in the i-MiEV, my wife and kids will simply refuse to ever ride in it. I would be forced to garage the Meepster and drive our minivan in the winter. I would prefer to drive the Meepster.

So, my challenge is finding an option that lets everyone ride in comfort, even in the dead of winter, without having to plug in their outerwear. Also, I need an option that isn't going to drain my traction battery to the point where it only gets a couple dozen miles of range, albeit a couple dozen warm and toasty miles. Basically, I want my family to ride in comfort and convenience and NOT regret our decision to purchase an EV.

During the work week probably isn't going to be that big of a deal. I drop my wife and kids off at their various destinations within the first few miles of my 15-mile commute. I can easily keep them comfortable by preheating the car while it is plugged into the 240V EVSE in the morning. And then I can keep the heat blasted inside the cabin for the first few miles until all my passengers are dropped off. After that, I can take whatever battery-conserving measures I deem necessary to make it to work and home again in the evening, and of course, ensuring there's enough juice left to pick everyone up (in warmth and comfort, again).

The real issue is going to be on the weekends when we do lots of running around with everyone in the car for extended periods. Keeping the heat blasted for everyone's comfort is going to severely limit our range.

 

[Don]

So, my challenge is finding an option that lets everyone ride in comfort, even in the dead of winter, without having to plug in their outerwear. Also, I need an option that isn't going to drain my traction battery to the point where it only gets a couple dozen miles of range, albeit a couple dozen warm and toasty miles. Basically, I want my family to ride in comfort and convenience and NOT regret our decision to purchase an EV.

I think you just described an iMiEV with a fuel burning heater, like the Webasto

But . . . . if you preheat the car before leaving home and run the defroster just enough to keep the glass clear, I think you'll be OK for the trip *to* work . . . . and on the trip home, you'll be able to gauge how much climate control you can afford to use and still make it home, especially after you've made the trip a few times

The bad thing about the electric/hot water heating system we have is that it takes a long time for the electricity to heat the water - The good thing is that when you leave home after pre-heating, you have a system full of 'free' hot water which you can keep warm with a minimum of energy expenditure . . . . especially if you opt to insulate everything as several of our northern owners have already done. If you aren't going to invest in an alternate heating system, then insulating everything (the heater under the car, the hoses associated with it, the door panels and above the headliner if possible) would certainly pay off - In both a more comfortable car and longer range

It's not like you can't live with the car as it is in cold climates . . . . it's just that it's going to be much different from what you were used to driving an ICE powered car with tons of waste heat. When your teeth chatter a little, just think how much your decision is saving the planet and you'll get by OK :mrgreen:

Don

 

[jray3]

Robb, I think the nature of many on this forum (myself included) is to fret and mess with stuff that's just fine as is. :shock: My worst case range for the i is currently 45 miles, and that was a winter test with 4 passengers and many miles on the highway going 70 mph, heat blasting, lights and wipers on. Temps were above freezing though, as I'm in Sunny Seattle, but IIRC, even our Siberian member has posted worst case range better than a "couple dozen" miles. (I still wanna insulate my heater, but that job's been appropriately prioritized.) Look up LeeC's Three Pass Blast for a thread on max range in the snowy mountains...

 

[RobbW]

Robb, I think the nature of many on this forum (myself included) is to fret and mess with stuff that's just fine as is. :shock:

Okay, this right here makes me feel a whole lot better, and it's something I've been trying to determine ever since I joined myimiev. I've asked a lot of questions on these forums and have probably annoyed a few people here and there by constantly rehashing the cold weather topic. I've been trying to figure out if the miev is really as bad in cold weather as a lot of these threads seem to make it out to be. Or is this just a case of a lot of tinkerers constantly trying to push the envelope with their vehicles and making them "mo' bettah" even though there's really nothing technically wrong with them?

Seriously, you guys. I've had a severe case of winter anxiety for the past month or so reading through some of these threads. It's nice to finally have some of those fears alleviated!

 

[MLucas]

Seriously, you guys. I've had a severe case of winter anxiety for the past month or so reading through some of these threads. It's nice to finally have some of those fears alleviated!

Seriously, its not that bad. It's something you can't describe, just something you'll have to experience for yourself. I'm a relative newbie as well. This is my first time with an EV and have experienced the same worries as you. I'm right at the knifes edge of making my EV work for the distance and speed I need to travel. Winter just pushes the envelope that much farther. I remember last fall trying to find mid-day charging options and trying different things to make my EV work for winter. To compound things, I didn't know how the little bugger was going to handle in the winter either and the first snow fall had me inducing more turbulance into the ride than was needed. Once I relaxed and let the advanced systems on the i-MiEV take control, the car handled beautifully and everything else worked out, too.

From what you described for your daily commute, I think you will do fine. Just remember the basics you have learned here and add a few of your innovations.

 

[RobbW]

Thank you, MLucas! And thank you to everyone else who contributes regularly to the myimiev forums. It really is a great resource of knowledge and experience for our cars. I've learned so much about EVs in my short time here so far. I can't wait to become a useful contributor myself once I have more experience under my belt!

 

[peterdambier]

It is nice to have car I can get my hands dirty making things.

Well, there is not much dirt in the first place but imagine yourself plunging into a gas consuming monster. I would not find my way out again. So here are some pictures of my back lid.

Isolating the doors and the lid improved noise and warmth. I have been at the Frankfurt IAA presentation of the BMW i3. Our i-MiEV comes close. After isolating it comes very close. It feels at least some 10 thousand dollars more expensive . :mrgreen:

Cheers
Peter and Karin

 

[Llecentaur]

I have isolated door panels with multiple layers of emergency blankets. Might be a placebo effect but it does seem warmer. But of course need to close air intake.

One note, if doing so, do think of spraying oil based antitrust in door panels. Several French forum owners were complaining about rust in lower areas of doors.

I will also try the back panel, also spraying rust protection...

Was not that successful at isolating the heater, could simply not find the right insulation. Anyone knows of a source online or Ebay ? The product recommended by our member in Luxembourg I think is impossible to source in Switzerland unless you order many meter squares.

 

[jaraczs]

Robb, I think the nature of many on this forum (myself included) is to fret and mess with stuff that's just fine as is. :shock: ...

Just to add my take from last Winter and related modifications, my position is - like most of others - Webasto or Espar heater is the best solution. I am considering to install it as a replacement of the original heater, not add-on.
The think is, the vehicle has a metal cage from ICE car that has plenty of heat to compensate for the lack of insulation. We have never thought of insulating our cars because of that available waste heat. Another consideration is that we insulate our homes and use fossil fuel (natural gas) to heat it because electricity is too expensive for heating. So, why to use electric heating in an uninsulated/poorly insulated car? The mindset is changing, I want EV because of electric powertrain but I want to heat with combustion heater.
In terms of my winter modifications, insulation has been the first level of action: heater, pipes, doors, underdash footwell. There is a parallel thread here:
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=224&hilit=solar+roof
I did not bother with seat heater/blankets/insoles but as it draws little power, I can understand someone can choose this. Managing water condensation takes practice, I am not going to repeat the previous posts but no breathing is NOT an option.

Another thread in this forum is describing how to direct air from the climate control into the battery pack.
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=10701#p10701
This can be used to heat the battery in the winter to restore its capacity/performance. It is very simple and you can control the air flow during vehicle operation. I am going to play with it this winter.

 

[siai47]

My "preparation for cold seasons" would take an additional path. Other then the heating problems (which are a comfort issue), the most damaging thing to this vehicle is going to be corrosion from ice melting substances used in the Winter. Salt and liquid chloride along with sand and cinder style mixes are going to cause havoc over the next few years. There are so many parts exposed to the weather that are thin, poorly painted metal parts that, if I was operating in these envorinments, I would really be proactive about keeping ahead of the damage that will occur. Many parts used in this vehicle are just bare metal with no protection at all. Even the main body components are of very thin gauge material. Everyone needs to keep the underbody flushed with a minimum of soap and water at regular intervals during the Winter. You should start the season with a good inspection of the car making sure there are no paint chips (and this goes for the underbody). Give the car a good wax job--including the door jams and the underside of the doors. A couple of cans of Rustoleum paint would go along way to help the "black" painted metal parts where the paint is coming off at any weld joint (front subframe and rear motor mount)---don't get spray paint, just a small can and a brush---there is no need for a show car finish. A wax type rustproofing should be added to the doors, hood and liftgate. A product like "Tectyl" or a rustproofing compound that has it as part of it's formulation would be perfect in this application. A heavier product should be sprayed on the underbody in the area between the rocker panels and the frame where the majority of crud gets thrown up by the front tires. Speaking of rocker panels, you cannot see them on the I-MiEV but the plastic covers can sure trap a lot of dirt and salt residue in that area that needs to be flushed out. Again I stess products like "Saltaway" are good a neturalizing the effects of road salt and chloride. At the end of the season, the plastic traction battery covers need to be removed (I would go as far as to take the splash liners out of the wheelwells) and the entire underbody needs to be flushed. If this kind of stuff isn't done (and on a modern car you shouldn't have to) I think there will be serious rust problems with these cars within five years. BTW--make sure any insulation material you might add in confined spaces are not ones that can absorb or trap water. Be extra careful not to block any drain holes during installation or matters will get really bad quickly.