PREPARATION FOR COLD SEASONS

[JoeS]

I just noticed I used to charge at ~2 bars/hr. But in the winter, I’m getting ~3 bars/hr (thus charging faster in the winter). But I don’t use public chargers; just my garage. I was hoping someone is keeping track of their wall-to-wheels KWhr/mile w/o using the heat for more precise measurements.

BarryP, you brought up two points:

1) CHARGING RATE. At 240.0vac, my measurements show that the iMiEV consumes a very steady (i.e., independent of SoC) 3,07kW. At this rate, 3bars/hour is a fairly accurate rate of charge, in my temperature range of 35degF (2degC) thru 90degF (32degC). I have no experience with charging in a sub-zero climate, but would expect the rate to actually be lower in order to protect the battery.

2) WALL-TO-WHEELS CONSUMPTION. Here are the numbers, meticulous recorded for over 8000 miles:
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5744#p5744
It's fair to say that wall-to-wheels 4.2miles/kWh for the iMiEV is a good round number for our non-temperature-extreme situation using minimal heat and aircon and a combination of leadfoot and featherfoot driving in a 50/50 mix of city and highway miles.

I'm no longer obsessed with energy consumption rates as I alter my driving style to match the distance I need to drive. With our very responsive i-MiEV, this can easily result in a 2:1 difference in range for a given charge starting level.

 

[PV1]

I went from 3.9 mi/kWh to 3-3.5 mi/kWh between summer and winter, so not using twice as much. 1/3 at the most.

 

[Kuuuurija]

Umm. I thought that’s what I said; maybe not clearly.

What did you mean by "ICE cars range goes down"? ICE car does not have range limitations, as there are always some gas stations nearby and filling up takes only few minutes.

In the winter ICE cars spend ~15% more fuel per mile, but EVs use up to 100% more power per mile. Of course your car do not tell you that and you have to use wall to wheels method to detect the change. Part of the increased consumption goes for preheating and warming of the battery pack, another part goes for cabin heating and third part takes the facilitation of increased rolling resistance in the snow. Thickening of the air has minor effect.

The capacity of battery goes down too, and if there is rapid decrease of temperature, then part of the power vanishes from the battery.

 

[Don]

Umm. I thought that’s what I said; maybe not clearly.

What did you mean by "ICE cars range goes down"? ICE car does not have range limitations, as there are always some gas stations nearby and filling up takes only few minutes.

I believe he meant how far the car can go on one tank of fuel. Every vehicle has 'range limitations' as to how far it can go without refueling, even nuclear submarines.

When you see an ICE driver walking along the road carrying a gas can, ask him/her about 'range limitations' and you'll likely hear they wish their fuel tank was just a little bit larger. Many years ago while traversing Wyoming overnight, we spent several hours parked at one of those 'always available gas stations' waiting for them to open at 7AM so we could continue on our journey. Our refueling stop took about 4 hours . . . . and it was really cold

Don

 

[Kuuuurija]

Don, no one is safe from his own stupidity!

If you own an ICE car, you can drive from the East coast to the West coast anytime. Sure you have to have some money to buy some gas. But basically, the trip should be without hassle.
But if you try this with your EV, then you will understand, what range limitation really means!

 

[PV1]

ICE: Gas station to gas station
EV: Charging station to charging station

Only difference is electric takes longer.

Look at Tesla's Supercharging maps. You can drive from Seattle, Washington to Los Angeles, California, then to Columbus, Ohio in a Model S now. By the end of the year, there will be a few transcontinental routes. So, a Model S can cover a good portion of the U.S. just like ICE cars. Granted, harder to do in an i-MiEV, but not impossible. An EV1 driver went from California to Detroit, Michigan. So did two guys in a Tesla Roadster.

Four charging stops between Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and Washington, D.C. in an i-MiEV, one charge in a Model S. My Cavalier would need to stop for gas once if I left with a full tank.

Ranges:
i-MiEV: 75 miles
Model S: 280 miles
Cavalier: 230 miles

 

[Zelenec]

Don, no one is safe from his own stupidity!

Kuuuurija, you can see one in the mirror. :mrgreen:

I admit that you are very persistent negating the benefits of EVs and highlighting the weaknesses. However, we know why we drive EVs and why we do not want to drive ICEs anymore if it is not absolutely necessary.

Don's example showed you exactly what range means. I'm sure you understood it just fine.

My example:
My C-zero has at least 80 km normal driving winter range, more than what my family needs in winter time. In summer time range increases by 70%. Again, more then my family needs in summer time. Now, let's say it is our only car: few times a year when we go on vacation or just need better range and we do not want to wait for long recharging, I just switch the car with someone who is happy to drive an electric car for a day or longer.

Now, please enlighten me why such use of the EV is stupid and how we could organize our transport more intelligently?

We all (including you) sure understand that EV is not suitable for everyone and every purpose. You don't transport concrete in a bus and schoolchildren in a truck. Every vehicle has it's purpose and I-miev is perfect for what we expect from a car.

 

[Kuuuurija]

Don, no one is safe from his own stupidity!

Kuuuurija, you can see one in the mirror. :mrgreen:

I admit that you are very persistent negating the benefits of EVs and highlighting the weaknesses. However, we know why we drive EVs and why we do not want to drive ICEs anymore if it is not absolutely necessary.

Really? I have never run out of gas on the road. I have never had to park my car at roadside and look for assistance. Tanking at gas station takes less time than sometimes waiting for a train passing at crossing, so I do not consider this as limitation of range.
Range might have different aspects. How far you can drive without running out of gas is one way to measure it, but for ICE car this is not limitation, that anyhow can affect everyday use. Only in a desert or other inhabitated areas this kind of range has limiting effect.
Range can be also something more practical, like distance achievable during one day etc.
Somebody, who is planning a road trip and does not check the fuel/battery level in advance, can not be too wise.
So better take a look into the mirror yourself!

I think someone has to talk about EV weaknesses too, not only ICE car weaknesses. If someone did this instead of me, I'd be reading silent. I do not care, why you drive EV. Be happy with it, it does not bother me at all! You are not forced to read my comments, feel free to ignore me!
I can not be silent if somebody is writing that only driving an ICE car is more costly in the winter conditions, but EV has always the same low costs.
I can not stay silent if somebody is writing, that an ICE car will take 20% more gas if heater is turned on!

[My C-zero has at least 80 km normal driving winter range, more than what my family needs in winter time. In summer time range increases by 70%.

This is already close to that, what I wrote. You there in Slovenia may experience warmer winters than we here. Therefore I wrote, that the difference is UP TO 100% (may be less, if conditions between summer and winter are not so different).

It is tested, that it is necessary to charge the battery of Nissan Leaf 8 times during winter road trip from Tallinn to Tartu and back (370km), if you do not make compromise in driving comfort and driving safety. Costing each 5 €. In the summer only 4 chargings are necessary.
I never had this large difference with an ICE car.
http://www.tv3play.ee/play/301364/

 

[DonDakin]

Hello all,

Responding to comments from a few posts back.

I think the auto bild test was in extreme cold conditions. From experience I can believe those numbers when driving an ev in the same manner as an ice car in the extreme cold. It's not really representative of winter overall, it's more the worst part of winter in areas where it does get very cold and snow lingers for several months. I mean it was -24 deg c during Xmas break and today it's 2 deg c and raining at 7 pm.

With this in mind I think the parking heater mod is the best mod you can do to the car for the winter. Maybe it's the best mod you can do to the car period. The only improvement I can think of is to retain the electric heater. Being able to preheat the car indoors is one of the great advantages of the ev in the winter over an ice car. You just can't beat electric preheat for comfort in the winter. Period.

It's also crazy to think that the car is somehow spoiled or impure in any way by adding a fuel burning heater. It actually makes the car perfect. The best source of energy is used for the best purpose. The drive train electric and the heater combustion. It's the perfect hybrid approach with the correct balance. How many hybrid cars can work on a one liter fuel tank ? Only one Stan's. And in the summer zero emissions.

Way to go. This simple mod kills so many birds with one stone it's not funny.

I would love to see auto bild test Stan's imiev with the parking heater and get 120 Kms in total comfort at -25 deg c routing heat to the battery and to the cabin.

Don.....

 

[Zelenec]

Really? I have never run out of gas on the road. I have never had to park my car at roadside and look for assistance.

Same story with my EV.

Tanking at gas station takes less time than sometimes waiting for a train passing at crossing, so I do not consider this as limitation of range.

Pluging my car when I come home takes a lot less time then waiting, filling and paying at gas station, so no range limitation, just saving my time and health.

You are not forced to read my comments, feel free to ignore me!

I just can't, sorry! Your posts can't be ignored because of your biased negativism.

It is tested, that it is necessary to charge the battery of Nissan Leaf 8 times during winter road trip from Tallinn to Tartu and back (370km), if you do not make compromise in driving comfort and driving safety. Costing each 5 €. In the summer only 4 chargings are necessary.

That's why short range EV is not for every person and every purpose.

I think someone has to talk about EV weaknesses too

Believe me, nobody is aware of them more then EV drivers.

 

[PV1]

EV limitations:

1. Shorter range than ICE may require some pre-planning of longer trips. Example- quick check of PlugShare or similar to map out a charging station/location and/or less energy intensive routes. (I stay off the highway and charge at work if I'm heading north into Pittsburgh, which is intuitive to me because I don't like the highways.)

2. No 26 kW/gallon of waste heat to tap into in the winter. Results are losing 15-20 miles of range to making heat or riding in the cold. Workarounds are modding the car, bundling up with the heated seat, or mapping out charging stations so heater can be run without running low on charge. (I've found that even in sub 9 degree F weather with gloves on, running without heat wasn't terribly chilling.)

3. Level 1 charge times, if charging en route, may keep you waiting, although this largely depends on your location and activity. I've found that this is really a non-issue. The flip-side is that I find level 2 charging is too fast. It'll finish charging in 2-3 hours, and I won't be ready to use the car for at least another 7+ hours (usually sleeping, although public charging yesterday left me like this. Fortunate enough that no-one needed the charging station) Sometimes even level 1 is too fast. When I travel to my friend's place of business for events, I'll leave the level 2 open and sip on level 1, and still finish charging hours before I need it.


Except for a handful of ignorant reviewers, I don't recall hearing of any EVs running out of charge that wasn't done on purpose.

 

[Kuuuurija]

Today EV made history, driving first time from Tallinn to Tartu and back (total 382.8km together with small city tour in Tartu) without charging at roadside. The weather was favourable, the ambient temperature was -3...-5C. The 85 kWh battery of the Model S was pretty much exhausted when the car finished. The guess-o-meter reached 0 few km before the end of the trip. Car consumed 77.8 kWh (203 kwh/km).

At least they can easily start in the frost, if left wired overnight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFLlk-22a4U

 

[HiJet]

Hello all, just joined the forum and first post, be kind ,

I've been thinking more and more about a Miev but ran into the usual worries about winter driving temperatures. Seeing so many people in truly frigid areas has warmed me even more, we're pretty mild on winter but do get a fair bit of snow.

Used Mievs are getting truly affordable it seems, at least around here, hope the link works and is readable.

http://www.goo-net.com/php/search/summary.php?maker_cd=1040&integration_car_cd=10401038|&n_body_cd=9,10&baitai=goo&body_type_search_flg=1&hybrid_ev_flg=1&pref_c=01,02,03,04,05,06,07,08,09,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47&easysearch_flg=1

They range about 12-15k USD , without chargers, and have very low kilometers, 9k- 22k

One thing I thought about, I don't have a garage, our low temps are at worst -9C / 14F ,
Would throwing an electric oil filled radiator/heater into the back seat overnight

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Oil-filled-Radiators-Heating-Home-Appliances/b?ie=UTF8&node=11712371

On a timer to say turn on at 6 am, help any with the pre-warming, or frost build up?

I'll have more questions for you all in the future I'm sure,

Thanks,

 

[JoeS]

HiJet, welcome to the forum. Wonderful to have someone from our i-MiEV's birthplace join us.

First of all, the iMiEV's heater works very well and can keep you warm and toasty inside the car, providing you do not have to drive far. There are a number of cold-weather threads on this forum, with many different tactics employed to stay warm. 12v car seat heaters, 12v heated vests used for motorcyclists, 12v heated socks and shoes, etc., in addition to wrapping up in a fleece blanket, are all tricks being used if you need to drive further and don't want to turn on the heater.

The i-MiEV's driving range appears to be only slightly affected by cold weather in the low-temperature range you experience. By far, the largest effect on range is due to running the car's heater.

I can't think of any reason why putting in an oil-filled heater into the car overnight shouldn't work to warm up the car before you get in. It's a pity that your cars do not have the Remote and it's ability to turn on and pre-heat the car while it is plugged in.

All the best to you in your quest. After you've perused the various categorized topics on this forum, feel free to ask questions and we'll be happy to try to answer them.

 

[HiJet]

Thanks for the welcome JoeS. Yes my main trepidation is I have a fairly long commute at 30 Kms. And sometimes I have a "double commute" , where I go go back home and return again to work making for a 120 km day. A few times per month I will have a 140km driving day, so that will be pushing it if using heater and AC. One savior is that there is a ChaDemo station along the route. I'll put all this into another detailed post under the correct thread later, but thanks for the welcome again!

 

[jray3]

Hi there HiJet, it's great to see participation from Japan. With a CHAdeMO EVSE along your route, that sounds quite doable. I've done over 200 km in a day without fast charging many times, and now that DCFC is common in my area, I don't think twice before heading out. Tomorrow will be at least a 145 km day, with 240V 16A available during my 6 hr meeting halfway, but I'll also pass 6 CHAdeMO sites!

 

[jray3]

Confession Mode- I left the i at home for a trip it could have handled :shock: , in order to provide unlimited heat for the wife on Date Night. Also it was snowing wet n heavy, and the minivan has snow tires. Little did I think we'd have to put on traction chains just to get home from the Movies! (Tacoma's founding fathers trashed a beautiful Olmstead-designed city plat in favor of a grid that ran streets straight up the steep hills.)
http://tinyurl.com/lwxgsfs

So far I've been fine without snow tires for the i, and would prefer to get a set of traction chains for those rare events rather than incur the cost and range penalties of mounting a set of winter tires. Anyone used chains yet?
I've found Thules rated for our size at $80/pair.
http://tinyurl.com/lcju94d

 

[RobbW]

Hey, all! It's been a long time since I've been on the boards. I'm going to do exactly the same thing I did a year ago and revive an old thread talking about the cold weather. Please bear with me.

So, I've had my Meepster for over a year now. July 11 was my anniversary. So far, so good. Loving everything about it still. Well, except for the thought of much colder weather arriving in a few months. I was reminded of this thread due to some very unseasonably cooler weather we've been having in the Chicago area lately. Actually, hasn't really been much of a summer at all around here. Way cooler than usual.

Anyway, I managed to survive my first winter in the Meepster without making any modifications to the vehicle. But that was pretty much the extent of it: survival. It certainly wasn't comfortable and took a lot of forethought and preparation anytime we headed out for a drive. Most of our cold-weather survival techniques involved preheating while plugged into L2 EVSE, bundling up nice and warm, using moderate heat only while I had other passengers in the car, and using the seat heater, a 12V heated blanket, and the heat/fan on the lowest settings while driving alone. Over the course of the winter, we only had a couple times when we really got worried about making it home on our remaining range. And those couple times were due to me having to run errands during my lunch hour at work and then late-arriving commuter trains while we waited to pick my wife up from the train station. While I know we could make-do with these same techniques and just "survive" another winter with the Meepster, I'd prefer to try and take steps ahead of the coming cold weather to have a more comfortable season.

With that in mind, has there been any consensus in the group as to THE MOST effective modifications for cold weather preparations? I know there is a whole slew of mods folks have done or suggested including: insulating the heater and water pipes, insulating the doors, insulating the hatchback, insulating the roof, installing insulation in the driver-side footwell, installing EnerLogic film on the windows, installing a Webasto-style fuel-burning heater, installing additional seat heaters, DIY camper propane heaters, infrared heaters, , etc., etc., etc.! If you only had the time and funds to perform one modification for the winter, which would it be?

While there are no effective solar PV heating solutions that I have been able to find (i.e. solar-powered cabin heaters), does anyone have any good ideas on the best way to use the Sun to our advantage while parked outside on cold days? I mean, aside from just parking in an area where the car will be in full sun for as long as possible? Are there sun shades that work in reverse? By that I mean instead of blocking the sun out and keeper the car cool, are there devices that accumulate/intensify the radiant energy of the Sun and use it to keep the interior warm? Is there any type of solar-powered heating element that, even if it doesn't make the interior feel warm, could at least keep the interior from getting completely frozen?

Basically, I'm looking for the most effective things I can do to make my daily commute more comfortable than it was last winter while having as small of an impact on my range as possible. Then, after getting to work, I'd like to find the most effective method for absorbing heat while my car sits parked outside in the unprotected cold all day long. I'm still not allowed to charge at work. So, anything I can do to minimize the amount of energy I have to use to stay comfortable is fair game. I'm still quite miffed that no one has yet to develop an effective solar PV charger for EVs. I know the efficiency isn't there yet, but even a minimal charger that could give me a few miles boost after sitting out in the sun for eight hours would be helpful!

 

[PV1]

Welcome back. For the most effective single mod, I'd say the Webasto heater, since you have all the heat you want without losing any range (if you can send heat to the battery, you might gain a few miles). Insulating mods are more efficient, but you'd still either be using electric heat or finding another heat source.

For a PV charging solution, I've been toying with the idea of 4 SolarWorld 275 watt panels on a modified boat trailer with a 4 kWh LiFePO4 battery pack. If it can be kept under 700 lbs., it could be towed with the i-MiEV. So, when it starts getting colder, haul the trailer to work and leave it parked until Spring (maybe see if you can leave it there all the time and backfeed excess solar to their building during the Spring/Summer/Fall ). On a sunny day, you could charge at 120 volts, 12 amps for 6 hours. With no sun, you should be able to charge for 3 hours before depleting the trailer battery. I would think charging level 1 at 8 amps would work well with the solar trailer so you don't overpower the panels and have the car stop charging, plus the consistent charge current would keep the battery warmer, increasing range slightly (though regen could have a dramatic increase in strength). The only thing, though, is that if your work won't let you plug in, I highly doubt they'd give up a parking space to a trailer for any length of time that's not connected to the car.

For solar heat, I usually park facing the opposite direction in the winter (parking space is north/south; I park facing north in the summer, and south in the winter). Because the windshield is bigger, it allows more sunlight into the car and does a good job at heating the seats and the interior air. Problem is that the air below the steering wheel is still cold. Better than nothing, though. :lol:

The key is to find something to keep the windows from fogging up. Letting outside air in is a big heat loss. I've heard shaving cream works on bathroom mirrors, I may have to try it.

 

[alohart]

If I had to drive my i-MiEV in cold winter weather, I would definitely install the Chinese Webasto clone auxiliary diesel heater as a few other i-MiEV owners on this forum have done. Then I would investigate insulating the heater as long as this insulation would not trap water and possibly cause corrosion. Insulating the doors, floor, roof, and any other accessible areas might be worth doing, but so much heat is lost through the large glass surface area that I'm not confident that added insulation would help much. If I typically drove with no rear seat passengers, I would consider installing a clear plastic curtain hanging from the ceiling to near the floor just behind the front seats to keep as much heat up front as possible.

I think driving the i-MiEV in cold weather could be made a much more comfortable experience without losing so much range.