Public Charging Station Customers

When our local town was considering installing public charging stations, one of the first things I did was point out that there were FIVE customer groups for the EVSEs that they should consider:

1. Local EV/NEV driver with short range who NEEDS to charge to get home.
2. Local EV commuter who takes family out for shopping/dinner in town after work and has a follow-on appointment and NEEDS to charge while in town.
3. Long-distance driver on a nearby Interstate who NEEDS to stop and charge, and, e.g., has a meal while waiting.
4. Long-distance driver for whom the town is a destination; e.g., a meeting. This person NEEDS to charge.
5. Employees of businesses within the town who are EV commuters and NEED to charge to get home.

Well, I've now come up with a sixth Customer:

6. A local resident coming home from a long trip and running on 'empty' and NEEDS to charge in order to get home.

This has now happened twice to me coming back from SFO and the East Bay because I was not able to charge there when I started the return trip. From town it is another five miles uphill for me to get home and even though I was perfectly-timed and still had two bars remaining and probably could have made it before turtle, I elected to top up before going home. Restaurants in town were the beneficiaries.

Happily, this town (Los Altos which currently charges $1/hr) is not in the predicament (yet) of Palo Alto (free charging) or the airports (free charging but pay for parking) where plug-in hybrids (Volt, Plug-In Prius, Ford Energi, etc.) which DO NOT NEED to charge have been hogging the EVSEs, leaving those of us with pure BEVs in somewhat of a quandary...

Adding a reasonable fee for charging at public charging stations would likely reduce the problem of PHEV's using them. A PHEV driver might decide that using his ICE to recharge his battery pack is less expensive than paying to charge. I wish public charging stations in Honolulu would add a reasonable charging fee ($2/hr is not reasonable!) to cut down on the use of these charging stations by PHEV's.

JoeS said:

1. Local EV/NEV driver with short range who NEEDS to charge to get home.
2. Local EV commuter who takes family out for shopping/dinner in town after work and has a follow-on appointment and NEEDS to charge while in town.
3. Long-distance driver on a nearby Interstate who NEEDS to stop and charge, and, e.g., has a meal while waiting.
4. Long-distance driver for whom the town is a destination; e.g., a meeting. This person NEEDS to charge.
5. Employees of businesses within the town who are EV commuters and NEED to charge to get home.
6. A local resident coming home from a long trip and running on 'empty' and NEEDS to charge in order to get home.

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7. A local resident having no option to charge home

Zelenec said:

7. A local resident having no option to charge home

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Of course, with our own alohart being a prime example. Thank you Zelenec.

Originally, I had not considered public EVSEs as significant for local users, but now I see that my preconception was wrong.

JoeS said:

Zelenec said:

7. A local resident having no option to charge home

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Of course, with our own alohart being a prime example.

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I don't recommend this situation. Being unable to count on a public charging station being available when needed really limits one's EV usage. I can't envision enough public charging stations being available at locations where EV owners would want to hang out while charging. The one exception would be at work locations, but then how would an EV owner charge on non-work days unless an EV is used as just a work commuting vehicle with an ICE vehicle being used for everything else?

alohart said:

I don't recommend this situation. Being unable to count on a public charging station being available when needed really limits one's EV usage. I can't envision enough public charging stations being available at locations where EV owners would want to hang out while charging.

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The owner I know solved this problem by overnight charging at the nearest neighbor who was willing to allow charging. He paid him double the price of energy consumed. Thus, they are both satisfied.

Zelenec said:

alohart said:

I don't recommend this situation. Being unable to count on a public charging station being available when needed really limits one's EV usage. I can't envision enough public charging stations being available at locations where EV owners would want to hang out while charging.

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The owner I know solved this problem by overnight charging at the nearest neighbor who was willing to allow charging. He paid him double the price of energy consumed. Thus, they are both satisfied.

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If I had a regular commute which required charging away from home, that would be my #1 'solution' - My vision of 'public' charging would be to make a 'private' arrangement with someone I could count on near the location I needed

I cannot imagine living day to day with the anxiety of 'will I be able to timely recharge today' and being dependent on the availability of any 'public' charging infrastructure. Even with expanded QC facilities, I don't think we will ever see the equivalent of pulling into a gas station and getting 'refueled' in a timely and convenient manner, let alone at reasonable prices

Mostly because of the frustrations and limitations associated with public charging, I don't see EV's ever becoming practical for a sizeable chunk of the motoring public, but they already are 100% practical for many of us - Especially for those of us who can recharge at (or near) work, and those of us who can make a round trip to and from wherever we need while recharging at home

Don

Don said:

My vision of 'public' charging would be to make a 'private' arrangement with someone I could count on near the location I needed

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I share your opinion, Don. In my small country (like many others) we have organized the plug sharing network. Wherever it was necessary, we found friendly people, inns, tourist spots, where we can always charge. Also the majority of EV-drivers has of course offered their sockets. So far we do not have too much trouble finding charging spots.

Zelenec said:

Don said:

My vision of 'public' charging would be to make a 'private' arrangement with someone I could count on near the location I needed

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I share your opinion, Don. In my small country (like many others) we have organized the plug sharing network. Wherever it was necessary, we found friendly people, inns, tourist spots, where we can always charge. Also the majority of EV-drivers has of course offered their sockets. So far we do not have too much trouble finding charging spots.

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That does seem like part of the solution. My socket is listed but I've never received a call. I offer both my 110v outlet that is easilly accesible on my porch and my 240v EVSE that can be accessed by giving me a call.

I'm really sick of this EV backlash of arresting owners for using 110v outlets that have no signage stating the outlet can't be used. I was thinking about Wi-Fi how ubiquitous that has become. Now, 110v outlets should be just as ubiquitous. It's not that much electricity and would solve a lot of this problem.

Well, Don and Art, public L2 EVSE is at that point in the Seattle region now. If one station is down, you're rarely more than a few miles from another. CHAdeMO is getting close. There's only a couple of towns where the Nissan dealer is the only DCQC option, which I've done successfully, twice with a bait n switch (the sales guy assumed I was driving a LEAF till he was standing outside with the key fob to start up the station for me, (didn't ask, didn't tell)! :roll: Thanks for helping a cousin out!

This week my wife took the Tesla again up to Oregon and I unexpectedly had a series of longer local trips which necessitated multiple DCQC charges. I had made the mistake of leaving my wife's i-MiEV at five bars with it's 12v on a float charger, making it essentially unusable. I now leave my wife's i-MiEV at 9 bars just in case I need to use it.

At home with our summer peak TOU rate structure, if I had to pay for it, charging during the day runs 45.7¢/kWh. In my case, this would mean less income to me because, as a result of generation supplier changes, I now actually get paid for the electricity I generate with my solar system. Thus, I try to refrain from charging during the day so when I get home with, say, four bars. I'm content to let the car sit there until nighttime. This week it bit me, as I had a few unexpected serious trips which had me, for example, rack up over 150 miles yesterday on my i-MiEV.

With EVgo's lowered rates and ChargePoint's normally very-reasonable rates, it was actually cheaper for me to use their DCQC instead of charging at home. In my case, I was running all over the place and NEEDED the DCQC with my tight time schedules. Luckily, every local DCQC station I went to was available and working and not ICEd!

This is a change from my past perspective whereby I had poo-poo'd the need for local DCQC. Now, I concede that it is battery-size-dependent, with the smaller the battery the greater the need.

So, I've updated the list of Public Charging Station Customers with a charging speed (level) annotation.

1. Local EV/NEV driver with short range who NEEDS to charge to get home. (DCQC preferred)
2. Local EV commuter who takes family out for shopping/dinner in town after work and has a follow-on appointment and NEEDS to charge while in town. (L2 OK)
3. Long-distance driver on a nearby Interstate who NEEDS to stop and charge, and, e.g., has a meal while waiting. (DCQC preferred)
4. Long-distance driver for whom the town is a destination; e.g., a meeting. This person NEEDS to charge. (DCQC preferred, but L2 usually OK)
5. Employees of businesses within the town who are EV commuters and NEED to charge to get home.(L1 and L2 OK)
6. A local resident coming home from a long trip and running on 'empty' and NEEDS to charge in order to get home. (DCQC preferred)
7. A local (typically multi-unit-dwelling) resident NEEDING to charge as having no option of charging at home. (L1 and L2 OK)

Recently there have been a lot of clueless newbies at both J1772 EVSEs and Tesla Superchargers that I've helped out numerous times, and it was a surprise to every one of them when I said that these were NOT parking spots and they DID NOT need to fully charge the cars and that the expectation was that they would move their cars as soon as they had enough charge to get home. In fact, all the local newbies I talked with were doing it because they COULD and not because they HAD TO. There's a cultural education that needs to be taking place...

Funniest one was the lady with her new Tesla Model 3 who had pulled into a ChargePoint CHAdeMO/Combo station and was trying to figure out how to plug it into her car. This was the last station available so I explained why it wouldn't work but directed her to the J1772 station nearby (I quickly pulled in and plugged in my i-MiEV into CHAdeMO after she pulled out) and then showed her how to use the J1772 adapter that came with the car and which would work IF she had a ChargePoint card (showed her). Maybe I should hire myself out to Tesla to teach people how to use their cars... :roll:

Anyway, fun and games in Silicon Valley where thankfully we now have loads of charging stations.

Fun times, Joe, but I'll suggest an amendment to your below list as follows.
#5, EV commuters have trouble using L1 or L2 if it isn't within easy walking distance, so may need DCFC.
#7, same for apartment dwellers, plus the insecurity of offsite parking at night, even if within walking distance. They need DCFC.

1. Local EV/NEV driver with short range who NEEDS to charge to get home. (DCQC preferred)
2. Local EV commuter who takes family out for shopping/dinner in town after work and has a follow-on appointment and NEEDS to charge while in town. (L2 OK)
3. Long-distance driver on a nearby Interstate who NEEDS to stop and charge, and, e.g., has a meal while waiting. (DCQC preferred)
4. Long-distance driver for whom the town is a destination; e.g., a meeting. This person NEEDS to charge. (DCQC preferred, but L2 usually OK)
5. Employees of businesses within the town who are EV commuters and NEED to charge to get home.(L1 and L2 OK)
6. A local resident coming home from a long trip and running on 'empty' and NEEDS to charge in order to get home. (DCQC preferred)
7. A local (typically multi-unit-dwelling) resident NEEDING to charge as having no option of charging at home. (L1 and L2 OK)

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JoeS said:

Recently there have been a lot of clueless newbies at both J1772 EVSEs and Tesla Superchargers that I've helped out numerous times, and it was a surprise to every one of them when I said that these were NOT parking spots and they DID NOT need to fully charge the cars and that the expectation was that they would move their cars as soon as they had enough charge to get home. In fact, all the local newbies I talked with were doing it because they COULD and not because they HAD TO. There's a cultural education that needs to be taking place...

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Volt owners never cease to complain whenever the cost of charging is more than the cost of gasoline - They call it price gouging

I explained that BEV drivers get furious when they are 'ICE'd' by hybrid drivers who are taking up a charger they NEED, just so hybrid owners can save a bit of gas - Especially when they don't move their cars once they have what they need to get where they're going. Pricing will eventually resolve these problems because so long as charging costs more than gas, it will help keep charging stations open for those who actually NEED to charge, as opposed to hybrid owners who can get home regardless of whether they can charge or not

Too many people feel that just because they drive cars which use electricity, charging should be free . . . . after all, they're doing the planet such a great service by not burning gasoline, so they feel somebody else should be picking up the tab

Don

When charging is free people “top up” just because they can.

I think L2 charging should be inexpensive. It’s a convenience when you’re shopping for example. I think someday they will have a system where if you spend $10 or more at an establishment they can validate 1-2 hours of charging or something.

We have L2 chargers here that charge a $1.50 “session fee” followed by $3/hour which is ridiculous. Not surprisingly no one uses them.

As for PHEV vs BEV if they’re not using their engine they’re helping saving the planet too.

The solution is more chargers.

ChrisEV said:

As for PHEV vs BEV if they’re not using their engine they’re helping saving the planet too.
The solution is more chargers.

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This ^

I agree that public L2 should be inexpensive. Less than gas, but not free. At $2.50/gallon, a fleet average approaching 25 mpg and 250 Wh/mile, my rule of thumb is a breakeven point of $0.10/mile or $0.40/kWh. That's a 400% markup on electricity from Puget Sound Energy, and coincides nicely with the Blink Network pricing of $0.39/kWh. Even at 400% markup, it's hard to cover any networking and maintenance costs for public L2 charging. I've been willing to 'overpay' for public charging as an early adopter, and it still pencils out because the majority of my miles come from super-cheap recharging at home (arguably profitable at home, given Washington's solar incentives). Sure, you can cut that breakeven point to $0.05/mile for a Prius or PHEV, but very few folks get to decide each morning whether to drive the Prius or the I-MiEV....

When public charging costs more than gas, at least in comparison to a 1-2 year average gas price, that opens up EV'ing to attacks via economics and delays the transition to sustainable transportation.

I am concerned that with long-range EVs dominating the market and no short-range EVs still for sale other than PHEVs, the current round of VW-funded non-highway EVSE deployments could fail due to lack of use. When one is driving a Bolt or Model 3, the only reason to plug in during normal daily use would be to score a preferable parking place.

jray3 said:

Fun times, Joe, but I'll suggest an amendment to your below list as follows.
#5, EV commuters have trouble using L1 or L2 if it isn't within easy walking distance, so may need DCFC.
#7, same for apartment dwellers, plus the insecurity of offsite parking at night, even if within walking distance. They need DCFC.

1. Local EV/NEV driver with short range who NEEDS to charge to get home. (DCQC preferred)
2. Local EV commuter who takes family out for shopping/dinner in town after work and has a follow-on appointment and NEEDS to charge while in town. (L2 OK)
3. Long-distance driver on a nearby Interstate who NEEDS to stop and charge, and, e.g., has a meal while waiting. (DCQC preferred)
4. Long-distance driver for whom the town is a destination; e.g., a meeting. This person NEEDS to charge. (DCQC preferred, but L2 usually OK)
5. Employees of businesses within the town who are EV commuters and NEED to charge to get home.(L1 and L2 OK)
6. A local resident coming home from a long trip and running on 'empty' and NEEDS to charge in order to get home. (DCQC preferred)
7. A local (typically multi-unit-dwelling) resident NEEDING to charge as having no option of charging at home. (L1 and L2 OK)

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jray3, you do realize that what you just suggested ends up recommending that virtually all public charging situations should be DCFC?

jray3 said:

I am concerned that with long-range EVs dominating the market and no short-range EVs still for sale other than PHEVs, the current round of VW-funded non-highway EVSE deployments could fail due to lack of use. When one is driving a Bolt or Model 3, the only reason to plug in during normal daily use would be to score a preferable parking place.

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Yes, I've been bemused by the continued proliferation of J1772 charging stations. Case in point, earlier this week I was running all over the place with unanticipated/unscheduled and very time-constrained trips and had no use for J1772.

So, what we're evolving to is is that J1772 charging stations will primarily cater to PHEVs in the near-future, but perhaps they are also doomed - case in point, the two local Volt owners that I know will be buying BEVs next since they've proven to themselves that even a 35-mile (now 50-mile) Volt electric range works for them and neither takes long trips. Hey, for us i-MiEV owners, the Bolt's 238-mile range is unabashed luxury!

PV1 - you own a BoltEV. How often and in what circumstances do you utilize a public charging?

Let me perhaps share yet another perspective: during our two meandering cross-country Tesla trips I often relied on local J1772 and CHAdeMO charging stations which allowed us to visit many out-of-the-way locations and not be fixated on our route being forced by the Tesla SuperCharger locations. Love PlugShare.

I don't have any problem with the cost of public charging stations at all. They have to make their money and when I need it, it's well worth it to me. Fast charge at $10 is totally cool with me. I probably only will need it once a year. I would rather have the current costs and more locations than cheaper cost and less locations. That's how I look at it. Higher cost allows quicker expansion, as long as the CEOs don't pocket it, which is often the case.

jray3 said:

I agree that public L2 should be inexpensive. Less than gas, but not free. At $2.50/gallon, a fleet average approaching 25 mpg and 250 Wh/mile, my rule of thumb is a breakeven point of $0.10/mile or $0.40/kWh. That's a 400% markup on electricity from Puget Sound Energy

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Won't work everywhere. Joe said the daytime rate at his house is 45 cents IIRC. Hard for the owner of the charging stations to make any money for less than about 75 cents

Don

Don said:

Won't work everywhere. Joe said the daytime rate at his house is 45 cents IIRC. Hard for the owner of the charging stations to make any money for less than about 75 cents
Don

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Yep, that's one more downside to TOU pricing and another push towards big-battery EVs. Gas pricing doesn't quadruple during the course of EVery afternoon! Locally we don't have time of use pricing and won't anytime soon, but demand charges (per kW in addition to per kWh) are a big deal, so I made sure to install our EVSE on small facilities that aren't subject to demand charges. During winter at $12.81 per peak kW, an I-MiEV plugging in for the right 15 minutes would cost the host $42.27, and a 20 kW dual-charger TESLA could cost $256.20. That's right, for 15 minutes or EVen less of charging if it coincides with peak demand at the host facility.

Adding 50 kW CHAdeMO would almost assuredly cost my local High School $640.50 per month in demand charges! California demand charges are up to twice that...