Wheels, Rims, and Tires
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fjpod said:
Aw pod, just let 'im have his fun. We'll all learn from it. (somehow I'm sure that GdB is male ;-p )
melloyello said:
Good find on recoding, for me that's a last resort. I want to first try AA traction 155/60R15 front's on a big open area to see if it over steers wickedly, wet or dry.
Apparently the mini's use these LUG BOLTS:
http://www.amazon.com/Dorman-610-367-1-M12-1-5-29-5mm-Wheel/dp/B0049DYDMK
They take a 17mm socket and the R81 wheel lug holes where the lug heads fit in are at least 25mm.
I found these after market high quality nuts we can use with mini wheels: MUTEKI SR48 TI OPEN END 12X1.5 LUG NUTS SET/20 #3 http://www.ebay.com/itm/19054340981...em=&sspagename=ADME:B:BOC:MOTORS:1123&vxp=mtr
BTW from the lost regen thread I confirmed that 3.1% change in diameter is too much. But 2.4% should be ok unless I missed someone reporting worn front's causing the same problem.
Diameter (inches)
front rear %rear/front %change
21.9 23.3 6.39% 2.37% worn front
22.4 23.3 4.02% 0% new OEM tires
22.4 22.7 1.51% 2.51% worn rear
changing by 3.1% causes loss of regen (see http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2269)
22.4 22.6 0.89% 3.13% new front and new 175/55 rear
Diameter (inches)
front rear %rear/front %change
21.9 23.3 6.39% 2.37% worn front
22.4 23.3 4.02% 0% new OEM tires
22.4 22.7 1.51% 2.51% worn rear
changing by 3.1% causes loss of regen (see http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2269)
22.4 22.6 0.89% 3.13% new front and new 175/55 rear
alohart
Well-known member
For those of us who don't want to lose any of the i-MiEV's very limited range, there are very few low rolling resistance tire choices. Unfortunately, unlike in the E.U., tires available in the U.S. aren't rated for rolling resistance, so it's not easy to judge the rolling resistance of a tire until it has been installed. Have you identified tires in your proposed new sizes that won't reduce the i-MiEV's range because of their high rolling resistance?GdB said:
I wouldn't be all that worried about finding LRR tires for my car
Everything is a trade-off and you must pick your priorities. What's most important to you?
In general, LRR tires will lower wet traction and increase wet stopping distances (some by as much as 20%) while giving you an increase in fuel economy of 2 to 4%, depending on who you believe. Even using the most optimistic 4%, this would reduce my typical 75 mile range to 72 miles. Personally, I'd rather have the added traction and shorter stopping distances that 'regular' tires provide. I think increasing your tire pressure from the recommended 36 psi to 42 to 44 psi would give you back some of that 4% anyway . . . . if it truly was 4% to begin with
Keep in mind that any new tire is going to give you increased fuel consumption/reduced range when compared to the old, worn tires you replaced. One of the bigger losses in any tire is the energy consumed in flexing the tread and the less tread you have to flex, the lower the overall rolling resistance. This is one reason why most LRR tires come new with only 9/32nds of tread, whereas ordinary tires come with 11/32nds. Less tread to begin with makes for lower rolling resistance, but also shorter lifespan
You could probably get a larger gain than 4% just by slowing down 5 mph
But, to each his own - If getting that extra 3 or 4 miles of range is critical to you, you gotta find every morsel of energy savings anywhere you can and there is definitely some to be found in the tires, but it does come at the expense of other things
Don
Everything is a trade-off and you must pick your priorities. What's most important to you?
In general, LRR tires will lower wet traction and increase wet stopping distances (some by as much as 20%) while giving you an increase in fuel economy of 2 to 4%, depending on who you believe. Even using the most optimistic 4%, this would reduce my typical 75 mile range to 72 miles. Personally, I'd rather have the added traction and shorter stopping distances that 'regular' tires provide. I think increasing your tire pressure from the recommended 36 psi to 42 to 44 psi would give you back some of that 4% anyway . . . . if it truly was 4% to begin with
Keep in mind that any new tire is going to give you increased fuel consumption/reduced range when compared to the old, worn tires you replaced. One of the bigger losses in any tire is the energy consumed in flexing the tread and the less tread you have to flex, the lower the overall rolling resistance. This is one reason why most LRR tires come new with only 9/32nds of tread, whereas ordinary tires come with 11/32nds. Less tread to begin with makes for lower rolling resistance, but also shorter lifespan
You could probably get a larger gain than 4% just by slowing down 5 mph
But, to each his own - If getting that extra 3 or 4 miles of range is critical to you, you gotta find every morsel of energy savings anywhere you can and there is definitely some to be found in the tires, but it does come at the expense of other things
Don
I just got a near perfect condition silver mini 15x5.5 R81's imola wheels with bald 175/65R15's good to test fit with shims. Looking inside with tire they look ok to narrow 15mm if needed, but with tire off I will ask the experts at a place nearby that specializes in wheel width changes. In a few days my shims will arrive, then I will test fit.
melloyello
Well-known member
GdB said:
Where did you find these 56.1 hubcentric spacers? The ones on ezaccessory.com are lugcentric with a 78mm centerbore, which would probably still work, but if hubcentric ones are available, might wanna get those instead.
I just got a set of mini cooper r100 15x5.5 spooler wheels, and tried them on. They're only about 1mm away from clearing the struts on the fronts. For comparison, the stock wheels have about 20mm clearance to the front stuts, and it didn't seem to change from jacking the fronts up and down, so a 5mm or 8mm spacer would probably be enough. 8mm spacers would provide more clearance, but with stock lug studs, would only allow the lug nuts to engage 5-6 threads.
Unfortunately, I don't have tires on my mini cooper wheels, so I can't test tire fitment. I found that Yokohama Ascend is available in 185/55R15 and 185/60/15 sizes, so that would allow matching front/rear LRR tires, but the fitment would be tough...
I have not had time to try my Mini R81's yet, but I am getting some tires to test fit...
Today while getting my lightweight bike hitch receiver welded (more later on the right thread...), I saw a 2003 Honda Insight EV and talked to the owner. I was able to measure the inside of the 14x5.5 inch wheels to be 12.2", surprising much more open than the Mirage 14x5.5 wheels. This makes it a good option.
Also I did some center of gravity estimates and based on the front and rear track, the wider track US i-MiEV may be able to handle tires with 0.9g [CORRECTION 0.97g see post below] traction before flipping over. The narrower EU and japan i-MiEV managed 0.73g and I suspect the crappy grip front tires were chosen for safety to prevent flipping. I found a few videos on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmIB5wWmHVg
Euro NCAP | Mitsubishi i-MiEV | 2011 | ESC test
Euro NCAP carried out "sine-with-dwell" tests according to the ESC GTR global technical regulation, which is based on the US regulation FMVSS126. For cars that allowed the ESC system to be switched off, tests were carried out with ESC ON and OFF. Cars were tested by undergoing multiple runs, sometimes as much as 60 per car, each time increasing the steering angle and input. The clip shows the 'first ESC off test' where the car span out. The 'ESC on test' is the one with the same steering input.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9xaKZDuxgw
Mitsubishi i-Miev im Test
Spacers and and low profile tires are recommended to prevent flipping.
There are tons of spacers on Ebay, and Amazon.
What I got...
MUTEKI SR48 TI OPEN END 12X1.5 LUG NUTS
I still need these assuming they are longer, maybe not.
Dorman Wheel Studs 610-414
It would be nice to get a photo of the i-Miev studs, anyone...?
I don't think these are correct otherwise they are longer.
http://www.amazon.com/EXTENDED-MITSUBISHI-LANCER-EVOLUTION-m12X1-5X50/dp/B009QBRAW0
Thread Length: 50mm Shank Length Knurl Size: 14.3mm Thread Size: 12 x 1.5 x 50mm
Otherwise these should work:
http://www.jscspeed.com/catalog/ARP_Wheel_Studs_for_03_06_Mitsubishi_Evolution_8_9-10353-1.html
http://www.streettunedmotorsports.com/parts/arp_wheel_studs.htm
Regarding tire sizes, you want to keep the front/rear ratio within a certain %, changing by 3.1% causes loss of regen (see http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2269 )
185/55R15 and 185/60/15 front and rear are a good match (1% change in front/rear ratio), assuming they fit, but heavy, slow, and (true) range might go down.
Here are a few front options with % diameter change:
155/60R15 = 22.3x6.1R15 -0.40%
145/65R15 = 22.4x5.7R15 0.00%
175/55R15 = 22.6x6.9R15 0.90%
165/60R15 = 22.8x???R15 1.79%
185/55R15 = 23x7.3R15 2.70%
And rear options:
175/55R15 = 22.6x6.9R15 -3.00%
195/50R15 = 22.7x7.7R15 -2.60%
185/55R15 = 23x7.3R15 -1.30%
175/60R15 = 23.3x6.9R15 0.00%
195/55R15 = 23.4x7.7R15 0.40%
185/60R15 = 23.7x7.3R15 1.70%
175/65R15 = 24x6.9R15 3.00%
185/65R15 = 24.3x???R15 4.29%
185/65R15 = 24.5x???R15 5.15%
195 seems like overkill but I left it in.
Today while getting my lightweight bike hitch receiver welded (more later on the right thread...), I saw a 2003 Honda Insight EV and talked to the owner. I was able to measure the inside of the 14x5.5 inch wheels to be 12.2", surprising much more open than the Mirage 14x5.5 wheels. This makes it a good option.
Also I did some center of gravity estimates and based on the front and rear track, the wider track US i-MiEV may be able to handle tires with 0.9g [CORRECTION 0.97g see post below] traction before flipping over. The narrower EU and japan i-MiEV managed 0.73g and I suspect the crappy grip front tires were chosen for safety to prevent flipping. I found a few videos on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmIB5wWmHVg
Euro NCAP | Mitsubishi i-MiEV | 2011 | ESC test
Euro NCAP carried out "sine-with-dwell" tests according to the ESC GTR global technical regulation, which is based on the US regulation FMVSS126. For cars that allowed the ESC system to be switched off, tests were carried out with ESC ON and OFF. Cars were tested by undergoing multiple runs, sometimes as much as 60 per car, each time increasing the steering angle and input. The clip shows the 'first ESC off test' where the car span out. The 'ESC on test' is the one with the same steering input.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9xaKZDuxgw
Mitsubishi i-Miev im Test
Spacers and and low profile tires are recommended to prevent flipping.
There are tons of spacers on Ebay, and Amazon.
What I got...
MUTEKI SR48 TI OPEN END 12X1.5 LUG NUTS
I still need these assuming they are longer, maybe not.
Dorman Wheel Studs 610-414
It would be nice to get a photo of the i-Miev studs, anyone...?
I don't think these are correct otherwise they are longer.
http://www.amazon.com/EXTENDED-MITSUBISHI-LANCER-EVOLUTION-m12X1-5X50/dp/B009QBRAW0
Thread Length: 50mm Shank Length Knurl Size: 14.3mm Thread Size: 12 x 1.5 x 50mm
Otherwise these should work:
http://www.jscspeed.com/catalog/ARP_Wheel_Studs_for_03_06_Mitsubishi_Evolution_8_9-10353-1.html
http://www.streettunedmotorsports.com/parts/arp_wheel_studs.htm
Regarding tire sizes, you want to keep the front/rear ratio within a certain %, changing by 3.1% causes loss of regen (see http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2269 )
185/55R15 and 185/60/15 front and rear are a good match (1% change in front/rear ratio), assuming they fit, but heavy, slow, and (true) range might go down.
Here are a few front options with % diameter change:
155/60R15 = 22.3x6.1R15 -0.40%
145/65R15 = 22.4x5.7R15 0.00%
175/55R15 = 22.6x6.9R15 0.90%
165/60R15 = 22.8x???R15 1.79%
185/55R15 = 23x7.3R15 2.70%
And rear options:
175/55R15 = 22.6x6.9R15 -3.00%
195/50R15 = 22.7x7.7R15 -2.60%
185/55R15 = 23x7.3R15 -1.30%
175/60R15 = 23.3x6.9R15 0.00%
195/55R15 = 23.4x7.7R15 0.40%
185/60R15 = 23.7x7.3R15 1.70%
175/65R15 = 24x6.9R15 3.00%
185/65R15 = 24.3x???R15 4.29%
185/65R15 = 24.5x???R15 5.15%
195 seems like overkill but I left it in.
CORRECTION, 0.98g !
The 'i' did a 0.74g on the skid pad, and I calculated the chassis flips at 0.84.
The japan/eu i-Miev did a 0.73g on the skid pad, and I calculated the chassis flips at 0.92.
Better chassis capability than the 'i' due to extra battery weight down low. But maybe the extra weight with the same tires is limiting the skid pad.
The US i-Miev did a 0.62g on the skidpad, and I calculated the chassis flips at 0.98.
http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/me-and-my-i-miev-marks-daily-blog
Better chassis capability than the japan/eu i-Miev due to wider track. But maybe the extra weight with the same tires is limiting the skid pad even more!
The 'i' did a 0.74g on the skid pad, and I calculated the chassis flips at 0.84.
The japan/eu i-Miev did a 0.73g on the skid pad, and I calculated the chassis flips at 0.92.
Better chassis capability than the 'i' due to extra battery weight down low. But maybe the extra weight with the same tires is limiting the skid pad.
The US i-Miev did a 0.62g on the skidpad, and I calculated the chassis flips at 0.98.
http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/me-and-my-i-miev-marks-daily-blog
Better chassis capability than the japan/eu i-Miev due to wider track. But maybe the extra weight with the same tires is limiting the skid pad even more!
RobertC
Well-known member
The Autoweek test was done in the summer of 2010 with a European version of the MiEV, not a US version. In the article the author talks about driving on the wrong side of the car and wanting the car to be left-hand drive.GdB said:
RobertC said:
Thanks, Good catch!
My chassis limit is idealist, ignoring body lean, tire and suspension effects...
But it still shows that the US i-MiEV should be able to do up to 0.16g better then the 'i' which managed 0.74g.
I wanted to be sure the handling improovements some of us seek are possible, and not a waste of time.
On another note, I may end up going with a set of 14 inch Gen 1 Insight wheels, after looking at the tire options and total weights including spacers, and I'd also rather go same or slightly smaller diameter and not to wide front to avoid problems. In these sizes there is a good choice of LRR and AA grip tires and any of these FRONT and REAR options could be combined as long as they are within 2% diameter (D%front - D%rear):
FRONT
14"Size D (in) D %
165/65 22.5 0.45%
185/60 22.8 1.79%
REAR
14"Size D (in) D %
175/65 23 -1.29%
185/65 23.5 0.86%
175/70 23.7 1.72%
195/60 23.2 -0.43%
melloyello
Well-known member
melloyello said:
So I ordered the 5mm and 8mm spacers from ezaccessory.com, and tried them on with my 15x5.5 mini cooper wheels. It looks like I was incorrect previously about how close these wheels are to clearing the struts. These 5mm spacers are actually about 6.5mm, and even then, they're still not enough. The 8mm spacers are actually 8mm, and they clear the struts with only about 1mm to spare - very tight. With these 8mm spacers, the lug nuts can only engage 6 threads, which is somewhat worrying.
The other option is to use the 1 inch spacers, and then the clearance and the lug nut thread engagement would both be non-issues, but there would be about 20mm more tire sticking out past the fenders...
GdB said:
To keep our terminology straight, isn't a spacer just a metal disc of specified thickness with holes to pass the lugs through, but not fasten to? I think of a disc that's bolted to the hub and holds a second set of lug studs or bolts as an adapter.
However, even the 'pros' overlap both terms. Here's another 1" 4x100 to 4x100 adapter/spacer.
http://prowheeladapters.com/wheel-adapters-wheel-spacers/4-lug-wheel-adapters-wheel-spacers/4x100-wheel-spacers-pair.html
I wonder if the OEM TPMS can be moved to the new wheels, or do we have to give it up?
If so here is an alternative:
http://www.gizmag.com/fobo-bluetooth-tire-pressure-monitoring-system/33754/
If so here is an alternative:
http://www.gizmag.com/fobo-bluetooth-tire-pressure-monitoring-system/33754/
acensor
Well-known member
After seeing (here?) that Michelin had come out with a low rolling resistance tire I sent from their site and inquiry as to if they had them in the sizes for the MiEV.
FWIW, here's their response:
"Thank you for your contact regarding your search for a tire fitment for your 2012 Mitsubishi iMiEV SE. Unfortunately we do not have a tire for you in that size. You can continue to check back with us periodically to see if we are any closer to manufacturing this size in the future. Please present your vehicle to local dealer in your area to further assist with your recommendation.
We appreciate your business and thank you for choosing Michelin.
It is our goal to ensure that your issue has been resolved or your question answered to your satisfaction. If we can assist you further, please respond to this email or call us at 1-866-866-6605 (toll free) between 8:00AM and 8:00PM Eastern Time Monday through Friday or between 8:30AM and 4:30PM Eastern Time on Saturday.
Sincerely,
Chermeka
Consumer Care Department
Certified Michelin Product Expert "
FWIW, here's their response:
"Thank you for your contact regarding your search for a tire fitment for your 2012 Mitsubishi iMiEV SE. Unfortunately we do not have a tire for you in that size. You can continue to check back with us periodically to see if we are any closer to manufacturing this size in the future. Please present your vehicle to local dealer in your area to further assist with your recommendation.
We appreciate your business and thank you for choosing Michelin.
It is our goal to ensure that your issue has been resolved or your question answered to your satisfaction. If we can assist you further, please respond to this email or call us at 1-866-866-6605 (toll free) between 8:00AM and 8:00PM Eastern Time Monday through Friday or between 8:30AM and 4:30PM Eastern Time on Saturday.
Sincerely,
Chermeka
Consumer Care Department
Certified Michelin Product Expert "
melloyello
Well-known member
Mini cooper wheels have been successfully installed! Here are some preliminary photos as well as a comparison shot of stock studs vs the extended studs I got from amazon.
This is the list of parts I'm using currently:
15x5.5 et45 mini cooper wheels (craigslist)
8mm spacers on the fronts (http://www.ezaccessory.com/4_Lug_5_16_Thick_Spacer_p/601.htm)
extended studs on the fronts (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009QBRAW0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
19mm open-ended bulge lug nuts (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B2FCCIA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
165/60R15 Continental ContiProContact front tires (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Continental&tireModel=ContiProContact&partnum=66TR5CPC&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes)
175/65R15 LRR Continental ContiProContact rear tires (http://www.onlinetires.com/products/vehicle/tires/continental/175%252F65-15+continental+conti+procontact+84h+bsw.html)
I also still have my "5mm" (6.5mm actual) spacers that I'd like to put on the rears to get approximately the same spacing rears vs fronts, but I need to figure out if I can install longer studs into the rears without too much difficulty. Also, 8mm front spacers are really tight, so I may try to find 10mm spacers that I could run all around. If anybody could find 15x5.5 et35 wheels, that would save all this trouble of spacers, extended studs, and open-ended lug nuts.
This is the list of parts I'm using currently:
15x5.5 et45 mini cooper wheels (craigslist)
8mm spacers on the fronts (http://www.ezaccessory.com/4_Lug_5_16_Thick_Spacer_p/601.htm)
extended studs on the fronts (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009QBRAW0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
19mm open-ended bulge lug nuts (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B2FCCIA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
165/60R15 Continental ContiProContact front tires (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Continental&tireModel=ContiProContact&partnum=66TR5CPC&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes)
175/65R15 LRR Continental ContiProContact rear tires (http://www.onlinetires.com/products/vehicle/tires/continental/175%252F65-15+continental+conti+procontact+84h+bsw.html)
I also still have my "5mm" (6.5mm actual) spacers that I'd like to put on the rears to get approximately the same spacing rears vs fronts, but I need to figure out if I can install longer studs into the rears without too much difficulty. Also, 8mm front spacers are really tight, so I may try to find 10mm spacers that I could run all around. If anybody could find 15x5.5 et35 wheels, that would save all this trouble of spacers, extended studs, and open-ended lug nuts.
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