Wheels, Rims, and Tires

[GdB]

I suspect I will eat up these front's fast anyway, even though I'm slowing a lot more in the turns than usual. Preserving speed into corners should save some range!

I want to going to the dealer to check my alignment and try to find out about the stud size (length, knurls etc).

A 1" wider front track would be ok for me aesthetically.

 

[GdB]

Here's a place that sells wheel spacers and longer lugs aka studs, in 5, 15, 20, and 25 mm:
http://www.performancealloys.com/alloy-search-results.aspx?ModelID=5818&PCDID=33

and:
http://www.ezaccessory.com/Hub_Centric_Wheel_Adapter_4_Lug_100_To_4_Lug_100_p/4100-4100hm.htm

http://www.ezaccessory.com/Wheel_Adapter_4_Lug_100_To_4_Lug_100_p/4100-4100z.htm

http://adaptitusa.com/4x100to4x100wheeladapter.aspx
Also apparently we have Thread Size: M12 x 1.5 which has not changed in a long time so maybe they are easy to find in longer lengths which would be less expensive then these easy wheel spacer kits. It's also better to use longer studs for other reasons, stiffness, strength, weight...
http://prowheeladapters.com/mitsubishi_bolt_patterns

Some studs:
http://www.ezaccessory.com/Wheel_Studs_s/30.htm
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/a...ESda3VmsAHlO9dLvWEzDZEuAmcoCKaeP1EaAoSd8P8HAQ

 

[GdB]

The new 14x4.5 Mirage wheels are the most interesting to me. However to not change the scrub radius they need 3mm spacers up front, which might not let them fit, even if the shock bracket is modified.

Here is some good information about scrub radius:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrub_radius
http://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...l-spacers-on-front-geometry-and-handling.html


On another note, there's a chance the wheel diameter's can be recoded, but it might be $$$ expensive:

http://www.evoscan.com

I sent a message to:
http://www.evoscan.com/help-and-support
"Does evoscan support the i-Miev? To possibly change certain settings?

At the i-Miev forums there is a lot of interest in upgrading to better tires, but the front rear revs/mile have to be within a certain % otherwise the ASC and regen braking are affected. I'm thinking it is possible to change the % to allow different tires sizes.

Also will evoscan work with a vagcom usb obd adapter?"

If evoscan does not do any recoding, mmcflash should be able to change anything but it's pricey ($457):
it's very pricey but I answered my own question!!! See page 6 of 11 "Mitsubishi i-MiEV MH8104F"
But pricey!
http://www.evoscan.com/mmcflash-mitsubishi-mazda-yamaha-ecu-reflashing
http://www.evoscan.com/mmcflash-mitsubishi-mazda-yamaha-ecu-reflashing?format=pdf
http://www.evoscan.com/evoscan-gps-...for-mitsubishi-lancer-and-outlanderreflashing
No ROMs yet here for us: http://www.evoscan.com/roms/mitsubishi/

Looks like a special tool is required for mmcflash:
http://www.tactrix.com/index.php?op...ls&product_id=17&Itemid=53&vmcchk=1&Itemid=53


BTW look at the Colt Ralliart here:
http://www.evoscan.com/vehicle-manuals

It like the i-miev but with 2014 mirage wheels.

 

[Don]

Another 'solution' that I looked into but have so far not pursued - Buy a set of lightweight 15X5.5 or 15X6 alloy wheels and have the front pair cut and re-welded to 15X5. Put the wheel in a large lathe and cut off the inner lip near the minimum diameter of the wheel. Then cut out a section of the remaining wheel so that when you weld the inner lip back on, you have a 15 X 5 wheel which will fit the front of the iMiEV

This is safe to do - It's done all the time with drag racers and motorcycle wheels. If you want a wider rear tire on your 150 HP, 200 MPH bike, there is a company which will widen your wheel using this same process. They cut the outer lips off a new wheel and use those wider lips to weld on your OEM wheel after they cut the old lips off it. Using this same process, they can even change the overall diameter of your wheel by an inch or more - Want to put a 16 inch tire on a 17 inch motorcycle rear wheel? They can make it happen

http://kosmanspecialties.com/services/wheel-widening-and-weldups/

Don

 

[melloyello]

Don, do you these 1 inch wheel spacers GdB found would have added enough clearance for those 15x5.5 mini cooper wheels that you tried? My i-imev tires are getting down to the wear bars, and there's a set of mini cooper wheels available locally that are getting pretty tempting.

I've also tried looking for the mirage wheels, but they are just so much harder to find...

 

[GdB]

The nice thing about the OEM alloys is the great view inside. I looked with my calibrated eyeball and it looked like the scrub radius is around -4 inches +-1. So there is some room to spare for going more positive. My guess is +1 inch will be noticeable but not problematic. Maybe the new tires will have as much effect on steering feel.

Another good writeup here:
http://www.wheeldictionary.net/

The scrub radius is distance between the Steering Axis Inclination (SAI)and the center of the wheel where both would theoretically touch the road. The steering axis is the line between the top pivot point of your hub and the lower ball joint of your hub. On a MacPherson strut, the top pivot point is the strut bearing, and the bottom point is the lower ball joint. On a suspension using upper and lower control arms, the pivot points are where the upright connects to the control arms. The inclination of the steering axis is measured as the angle between the steering axis and the centerline of the wheel. This means that if your camber is adjustable within the pivot points (i.e. Volkswagen) you can change the SAI, thus alter your scrub radius, that alter the width and offset of tyres you can safely run on your car.

The net effect of running an offset LESS in the positive is poor steering control and it develops what is known as "tram lining" over uneven surfaces (The wheels pull to either side. This also encourages instability at high speed. Such effects can be lessened by setting front wheel alignment to neutral, but in many cases it is simply unwise to use a wheel that alters the scrub radius of a car. This is why some insurance companies will not pay out on an accident involving a car that has after market wheels.

Large positive values of scrub radius, 4 inches or 100 mm or so, were used in cars for many years. The advantage of this is that the tire rolls as the wheel is steered, which reduces the effort when parking. This also allows greater width in the engine bay, which is very important in some compact sports cars. Scrub Radius is very important in regards Wheel Alignment and steering stability.

If the scrub radius is small then the contact patch is spun in place when parking, which takes a lot more effort. The advantage of a small scrub radius is that the steering becomes less sensitive to braking inputs, in particular.

An advantage of a negative scrub radius is that the geometry naturally compensates for split mu braking, or failure in one of the brake circuits.

 

[Don]

Don, do you these 1 inch wheel spacers GdB found would have added enough clearance for those 15x5.5 mini cooper wheels that you tried? My i-imev tires are getting down to the wear bars, and there's a set of mini cooper wheels available locally that are getting pretty tempting.

They would fit with a 1/2 inch spacer I think, but the track width and the scrub radius would be altered - Probably enough to be noticeable

The other negative is that the Mini-Cooper wheels are not exactly light. I have a brand new set of 4 of them still in the BMW boxes sitting in the garage that I haven't decided what to do with at this point

Don

 

[melloyello]

It looks like disabling traction control does not help any with running equal size tires all around:
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1656&start=48
So this issue will be critical to address or else we're pretty much stuck with stock size tires. I couldn't find any other useful combos that keep same width tires all around - except maybe 175/65R14 fronts with 175/70F14 rears.

BTW look at the Colt Ralliart here:
http://www.evoscan.com/vehicle-manuals

It like the i-miev but with 2014 mirage wheels.

That colt does have a strong resemblance to the i-miev, but it looks like it's a completely different vehicle. It's front engine and front wheel drive, and the suspension looks completely different. If anything, the i-miev would share components with the mitsubishi i and maybe the i-miev mini-cab.

 

[melloyello]

Another 'solution' that I looked into but have so far not pursued - Buy a set of lightweight 15X5.5 or 15X6 alloy wheels and have the front pair cut and re-welded to 15X5. Put the wheel in a large lathe and cut off the inner lip near the minimum diameter of the wheel. Then cut out a section of the remaining wheel so that when you weld the inner lip back on, you have a 15 X 5 wheel which will fit the front of the iMiEV

This is safe to do - It's done all the time with drag racers and motorcycle wheels. If you want a wider rear tire on your 150 HP, 200 MPH bike, there is a company which will widen your wheel using this same process. They cut the outer lips off a new wheel and use those wider lips to weld on your OEM wheel after they cut the old lips off it. Using this same process, they can even change the overall diameter of your wheel by an inch or more - Want to put a 16 inch tire on a 17 inch motorcycle rear wheel? They can make it happen

http://kosmanspecialties.com/services/wheel-widening-and-weldups/

Don

Well, if you're gonna modify wheels, then you might as well go get your stock front i-miev wheels widened to 15x5? Saves you having to go get another set of wheels, though on the other hand, there are advantages to keeping your stock wheels unmodified also..

 

[GdB]

Regarding 2014+ 14x4.5 alloy mirage wheels:

I estimated dimensions from pictures. Estimated 12" Inner diameter maybe just big enough to clear i-MiEV front brake caliper. On my alloy fronts there is about 1/2" to 5/8" clearance to the caliper, so 1" smaller wheel might just fit.

Try here for mirage wheels:

http://www.car-part.com/

Best deal I found is:

2014
Wheel
Mitsubishi Mirage COMPLETE SET WITH NEW TIRES 14'' ALUMINUM 7 SPOKE 3653 $450 AutoWorld Used Auto Parts USA-FL(Opa-Locka) Request_Quote 305-685-6033 Request_Insurance_Quote

I also found these sites:

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-tires-rims/c...e-like-new-used-rims-tires-set-of-5/580559395

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-Mitsub..._Car_Truck_Wheels&hash=item20ea561f55&vxp=mtr

Unfortunately none are close to me otherwise I would go test fit and buy them.

 

[Don]

Well, if you're gonna modify wheels, then you might as well go get your stock front i-miev wheels widened to 15x5?

I'm not sure that would work - The ONLY way to widen an alloy car wheel is to add the extra width to the inside of the wheel, which is exactly where the iMiEV doesn't want the extra width. It would probably be better and certainly easier to narrow a stock rear wheel if you want to keep the OEM wheels - When you widen a wheel, you cut off the inner lip and then weld on a wider lip which you cut off a 'donor' wheel, so either way, you'd have to buy a pair of wheels

Don

 

[GdB]

The only possible deal breaker with Mirage wheels is the inner diameter being smaller than the front brake caliper. I'm thinking of going to a dealer and measuring it.

 

[GdB]

I stopped by the dealer and looked at a Mirage alloy 14x4.5 wheel and they look super close to or maybe slightly less than 12 inch inner diameter. They may fit but it will be very close. EDIT: I took a picture with a tape measure and looked closely with irfanview. THEY WILL NOT CLEAR THE i-MiEV FRONT CALIPER! The problem is the 10.6 inch inner diameter of the 14x4.5 Mirage wheel. Wow how I was way off looking too quickly!

But some good news! The parts guy was nice enough to look up the studs. Same size front and rear:
(16) MB911415 12mm thread x 43mm long same size as lots of other models, maybe all the (211A) 3000gt’s and (CT9A) Evo’s up to 06 or 07.

These are the same but slightly longer:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rnb-610-414/overview/make/mitsubishi/model/lancer

Wheel Stud Style: Press-in
Wheel Stud Thread Size: 12mm x 1.50 RH
Knurl Diameter (mm): 14.38mm
Underhead Length (mm): 10.50mm
Overall Length (mm): 45.00mm

A few longer options:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-7717
ICHIBA - 10 x EXTENDED WHEEL STUD (MT-12550)

 

[GdB]

I looked around more on a really good wheel database and found some better options... 15x5-1/2 from Nissan 200SX or Mini 7 hole imola R81 are common at salvage yards.
The R81 is only 12 lbs which compensates for having to use wheel spacers. All the other types of mini wheels are heavier, maybe the 200SX also.
The R81's are really popular to upgrade to on other than Mini's.

 

[melloyello]

yep, there's a junkyard here that has a set of R81 wheels, but they want like $100 each for them. I almost got a set of mini cooper 15in wheels and tires off craigslist for $200, but somebody beat me to it

 

[Don]

They won't fit the front anyway, unless you use at least a 1/2 inch spacer, which would have your front track almost 2 inches wider than it should be - The scrub radius would be really off

I have a brand new set of 4 still in the BMW boxes sitting in the garage from that failed experiment

Don

 

[GdB]

The experiment is not failed, it's not finished!

Scrub radius is defined from the tire centerline to the pivot axis. Offset is defined as the distance to the wheel centerline. Therefor, the scrub radius is not changed if the new wheels offset and diameter is the same. The Mini wheels have a 45mm offset, so adding 10mm spacers reduces the offset to 35mm, the same as the i-MiEV wheels.

The pivot axis is 15 degrees, and looking at it I estimated the scrub radius to be at least 3 to 4 inches (75 to 100mm).

Essentially the same diameter tires with these sizes:
165/65R15 front D+0.45%
185/65R15 rear D+0.86%

So even if you have to use 15mm spacers, the 5mm lost scrub radius out of 75 to 100mm is minor.

In my head I estimated that the extra weight of alloy wheel spacers + longer studs is about 1 lb per 10mm. so maybe an extra 1.5lbs.

The cheaper set of extended lugs add about 15mm for about $2 each.

5.5 wide wheels are 38mm wider, or 19mm per side from the centerline, but with 15mm spacers added to 45mm offset, you end up with +14mm inside and +24mm outside. I think it will look fine, but the inside tire surface might rub with steering at maximum lock. (NEXT THING TO CHECK IS INSIDE CLEARANCE, WITH MAXIMUM LEFT AND RIGHT STEERING)

I wish I was nearby, I would try them myself. Otherwise I have drive 13 miles to barter with the salvage yard.

If a little more than 15mm is needed, I saw 3mm spacers that could be stacked... I would be surprised if more than 20mm was needed which would still be ok for the scrub radius.

They won't fit the front anyway, unless you use at least a 1/2 inch spacer, which would have your front track almost 2 inches wider than it should be - The scrub radius would be really off

I have a brand new set of 4 still in the BMW boxes sitting in the garage from that failed experiment

Don

 

[melloyello]

some webpages I found that look promising for tire size reprogramming:
http://etacsdecoder.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=1
http://www.obd2tuning.com/advanced_search_result.html?keyword=lexia&search_in_description=1
http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/evo-x-engine-management-tuning-forums/624016-tpms-can-turned-off-thanks-vadimus-help.html
http://mitsubishiforum.com/forum/mitsubishi-outlander-10/etacs-options-customization-40223/page112/

these guys seem mostly interested in disabling tpms, but as you can see in the screenshots, there is a setting for tire circumference (2026mm shown for evo x, and 2185mm shown for outlander). Apparently this $80 lexia cable was designed for peugeots and citroens, but also works for many mitsubishis. Not sure if it would work on i-miev, but i did see some mention of citroen czero and peugeot ion support, so it seems like there's some chance. Still, gotta get lucky that i-miev is supported, and tire circumference setting is available, and that it actually solves the regen braking issue. I don't see separate front and rear tire circumference settings, so that's somewhat worrying...

I was trying to test out different wheels on the rear, but found that these 21mm oem lug nuts don't work well with most wheels - they fill up the entire hole and then there's no room for the socket. Looks like I'll have to try to find some new lug nuts...
edit: the holes in my other wheels can only fit sockets up to 17mm, but the smallest m12-1.5 lug nuts I found are 19mm or 3/4inch. Are there smaller lug nuts available or the holes in the mini cooper wheels any larger? seems so strange for this to be a limitation, do these wheels only work with lug bolts or something?

 

[Don]

5.5 wide wheels are 38mm wider, or 19mm per side from the centerline, but with 15mm spacers added to 45mm offset, you end up with +14mm inside and +24mm outside. I think it will look fine, but the inside tire surface might rub with steering at maximum lock

I'm not sure you can live with the extra 14mm on the inside, especially if you're going to use a wider tire - Check that carefully

Yes, the front overall width would increase by about 2 inches, 1 inch per side . . . . and this does change the track width and thereby, also the scrub radius - You seem OK with that. Pushing the outside edge of the tire out by an inch also brings it closer to the fender liner as you turn the steering wheel, especially so with a larger tire . . . . check that closely also

You can get a good idea of how it will look by pulling one rear wheel and putting it on the other side of the front. If you pull out the pressed in ring on the front spindle, it will bolt on the car - The wheel won't rotate because the tire will rub the strut tower, but you can bolt it on and lower the car and have a look. I've done this already and that's when I gave up on the idea of spacing 5.5 inch wheels out by 10 or 15mm as not being practical

You will need to do some careful measuring on the tire to fender clearance, especially as the tire is steered through it's travel - There's not much clearance there now with the tiny 145/65 tires and it quickly goes away with wider wheels with bigger tires especially when you offset them outwards. I think you're going to find you will have some serious rubbing

I hope you do find a good solution to larger front tires - I've played around with this off and on over the past two years and am still interested . . . . . but I'm just trying to save you from an expensive purchase of wheels that won't work in the end - Been there, done that ;-)

I think the very best answer to all of this is . . . . (from page 2 of this discussion)

"I got the info we are looking for, many thanks to Mitsubishi Switzerland !

Front: Tyre 175/50/16 Wheel 16"/5.5"/ET 34
Back : Tyre 195/45/16 Wheel 16"/6.5"/ET 33

Make Work Wheels, Japan, model schwert SC1 (SW1)"

I'm just not crazy about the price :shock:

Don

 

[GdB]

You can get a good idea of how it will look by pulling one rear wheel and putting it on the other side of the front. If you pull out the pressed in ring on the front spindle, it will bolt on the car - The wheel won't rotate because the tire will rub the strut tower, but you can bolt it on and lower the car and have a look. I've done this already and that's when I gave up on the idea of spacing 5.5 inch wheels out by 10 or 15mm as not being practical

You will need to do some careful measuring on the tire to fender clearance, especially as the tire is steered through it's travel - There's not much clearance there now with the tiny 145/65 tires and it quickly goes away with wider wheels with bigger tires especially when you offset them outwards. I think you're going to find you will have some serious rubbing

I hope you do find a good solution to larger front tires - I've played around with this off and on over the past two years and am still interested . . . . . but I'm just trying to save you from an expensive purchase of wheels that won't work in the end - Been there, done that ;-)

I think the very best answer to all of this is . . . . (from page 2 of this discussion)

"I got the info we are looking for, many thanks to Mitsubishi Switzerland !

Front: Tyre 175/50/16 Wheel 16"/5.5"/ET 34
Back : Tyre 195/45/16 Wheel 16"/6.5"/ET 33

Make Work Wheels, Japan, model schwert SC1 (SW1)"

I'm just not crazy about the price :shock:

Don

Scrub radius is not an issue as I mentioned before.

I still don't see why you gave up without trying 10 or 15mm spacers.

Assuming this is the plan, lot's of good tire choices:
FRONT:
165/60R15 = 22.8x???R15 D+1.79%

REAR:
185/60R15 = 23.7x7.3R15 D+1.70%

So I ran this tool to see the result with Mini R81 15x5.5 wheels, 45mm offset + spacers:
http://www.rimsntires.com/specspro.jsp

So using 10mm spacers the offset is 35mm.

So using 15mm spacers the offset is 30mm.

The 16's will definately cost and weigh more, and limit tire choices much more without going too much bigger diamter tire.

This place does high quality wheel narrowing which seems a better option than 16's.
http://www.weldcraftwheels.com/index-2.html
I talked on the phone and they estimated $150/each to narrow Mini R81 15x5.5 wheels by 10mm or more if possible.