Riversimple and Fuel Cell Discussions
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phb10186
Well-known member
Look how tiny this car is compared to the Prius-sized Mirai - I simply can't see how that would ever gain the requisite approval in the collision safety department to go mainstream, not least because I think you need to supply 2 vehicles for crash testing (definitely 1). I think there is a very low production waiver of a few cars allowed before you need to get all that stuff - hence will this ever be more than a proof of concept thing?
https://www.riversimple.com/2017-evergrowing-presence-of-riversimple-and-rasa/img_1237/
That vehicle, the only one ever pictured I believe has the year designation '65' in the license plate - meaning it was registered for use between September 2015 and March 2016 (likely built and finished long before). It is amazing how far they have got on only a few £m funding, though I remain skeptical as to whether this is an impassioned voyage of discovery, or a viable business and transport solution. We have, as a United Kingdom a rich history of small scale vehicle manufacturer failures/ insolvencies - and that has been due mainly with an almost inherent national failure to successfully commercialise, rather than to successfully innovate and produce well.
Concerning the Mirai, there appear to be 41 registered in the UK, I live near an open hydrogen filling station (I think the first one opened in the UK - and predictably next door to a main Toyota/ Lexus dealership), and I am yet to see one on the road, or any vehicle ever fill up with Hydrogen. I assume therefore, that they are all being tested by various commercial organisations. Once they turn 3 years old, sometime towards the end of the year and through 2019, I will be carefully looking for any of those to turn up used, and am highly interested in what the used price may be. I would also assume that the number of miles traveled will be very low indeed, but I will keep my eyes peeled. I have really wanted to see one on the roads, and I should have done by now based on where I live and where I commute.
https://www.riversimple.com/2017-evergrowing-presence-of-riversimple-and-rasa/img_1237/
That vehicle, the only one ever pictured I believe has the year designation '65' in the license plate - meaning it was registered for use between September 2015 and March 2016 (likely built and finished long before). It is amazing how far they have got on only a few £m funding, though I remain skeptical as to whether this is an impassioned voyage of discovery, or a viable business and transport solution. We have, as a United Kingdom a rich history of small scale vehicle manufacturer failures/ insolvencies - and that has been due mainly with an almost inherent national failure to successfully commercialise, rather than to successfully innovate and produce well.
Concerning the Mirai, there appear to be 41 registered in the UK, I live near an open hydrogen filling station (I think the first one opened in the UK - and predictably next door to a main Toyota/ Lexus dealership), and I am yet to see one on the road, or any vehicle ever fill up with Hydrogen. I assume therefore, that they are all being tested by various commercial organisations. Once they turn 3 years old, sometime towards the end of the year and through 2019, I will be carefully looking for any of those to turn up used, and am highly interested in what the used price may be. I would also assume that the number of miles traveled will be very low indeed, but I will keep my eyes peeled. I have really wanted to see one on the roads, and I should have done by now based on where I live and where I commute.
misterbleepy
Well-known member
Maybe they will be going for National Small Series Type Approval (NSSTA) or even Individual Vehicle Approval (IVA) if they're only going to build a small amount?phb10186 said:
https://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/type-approval-for-ca.asp
Looking at the car, I wonder how much more battery capacity you could get in there if you ditched all the hydrogen gubbins.
phb10186
Well-known member
^ could do. Not sure how making that into a BEV could make commercial sense...
More on ITM's progress in re-purposing natural gas networks to hydrogen. This appears to be part of a plan to convert all of the UK?
http://www.itm-power.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/HyDeploy-launch-presentation.pdf
It makes some sense given the quantity of natural gas burned and CO2 produced.
Here in the US, assuming the DOE is correct by their site: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=75&t=11
Then, the 1,485 million metric tons of CO2 produced from the burning of natural gas must be addressed as part of the formula for fixing climate change.
Perhaps (1) all gas networks should be converted to hydrogen networks, (2) all appliances/fixtures/tools now using natural gas be converted to hydrogen, and (3) home hydrogen compression stations be developed for cars as part of a hydrogen gas distribution network, as simply compressing it for the purpose of providing energy to a FCEV becomes a simpler problem if the existing natural gas network is used for hydrogen distribution.
In order to make this work for climate changes purposes, 100% of the carbon must be captured when the conversion to hydrogen takes place and used for something else. Like electric car or storage batteries? See also this:
https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2016/jul/22/cheap-and-clean-australian-company-creates-hydrogen-with-near-zero-emissions
Hydrogen conversion and use in the existing natural gas network makes sense when you look at the total CO2 produced from natural gas, something that would look sort of like this as posted before: http://www.itm-power.com/news-item/injection-of-hydrogen-into-the-german-gas-distribution-grid
http://www.itm-power.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/HyDeploy-launch-presentation.pdf
It makes some sense given the quantity of natural gas burned and CO2 produced.
Here in the US, assuming the DOE is correct by their site: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=75&t=11
Then, the 1,485 million metric tons of CO2 produced from the burning of natural gas must be addressed as part of the formula for fixing climate change.
Perhaps (1) all gas networks should be converted to hydrogen networks, (2) all appliances/fixtures/tools now using natural gas be converted to hydrogen, and (3) home hydrogen compression stations be developed for cars as part of a hydrogen gas distribution network, as simply compressing it for the purpose of providing energy to a FCEV becomes a simpler problem if the existing natural gas network is used for hydrogen distribution.
In order to make this work for climate changes purposes, 100% of the carbon must be captured when the conversion to hydrogen takes place and used for something else. Like electric car or storage batteries? See also this:
https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2016/jul/22/cheap-and-clean-australian-company-creates-hydrogen-with-near-zero-emissions
Hydrogen conversion and use in the existing natural gas network makes sense when you look at the total CO2 produced from natural gas, something that would look sort of like this as posted before: http://www.itm-power.com/news-item/injection-of-hydrogen-into-the-german-gas-distribution-grid
phb10186
Well-known member
Phximiev said:
That's an excellent bit of consultancy by KPMG, but the problem is in the small print, where you need green H2 production. 'Cadent' (formerly called 'British Gas') the main monopoly on the gas infrastructure in the UK are in the business of keeping their existing infrastructure going, and installing the gas mains to homes (i've just had my old metal gas mains changed to HDPE yellow plastic ones - cost £6K - but 100% covered by a qualifying local government grant, hence why I got it done). So, I'm a bit skeptical of the monopoly infrastructure controller paying a private consultancy to tell us what the best options are (even if they disguise it as from another institution) - however, using the existing infrastructure makes sense, though leaves several issues unanswered: the main one being, who's going to pay for me to replace a £1,500 boiler with a likely £10k fuel cell one when the monopoly tell me they are turning off the gas?!
Not sure this is part of a plan to convert all of the UK at this stage (would have to go through UK government bill), but more of a discussion around one potential part-solution. Their calculations and assumption are likely only 'accurate until proven inaccurate', but I dare say that currently, we may have to beef up our armed forces a tad following this spy poisoning, deal with Brexit, and address the chronic lack of homes we have blissfully and ignorantly drifted in to. Would be good to see this more extensively trialed in some new housing development towns and see what it's like before they send over the letter advising that my taxes are gong up 10% and the gas is being turned off! Still... there is that thing about getting the hydrogen out cleanly, and then being able to use it affordably at the other end - as well as them being able to keep rather than scrap their aged network of gas pipes.
I'm also trying to assemble an argument here where you may need gas and H2 supply, and one pipe won't suffice... though I suppose the intention would be a phased roll-out on a regional basis... so that may not be such an issue.
That bit about home H2 compression is quite interesting - you could potentially see the issue of loads of hydrogen vessels on every street, but maybe you only need a small amount of storage for the next day of use... I don't currently understand how much would be needed, but I see a washing machine sized appliance that topps off the car and feeds the boiler, containing a few Kgs of hydrogen.
I don't doubt that the nuclear age will slowly become the hydrogen age - I am mostly convinced about that, especially the way geopolitics are going at the moment - so it's a case of 'yes do it, but don't make my life even more miserably expensive than it already is while doing it'. Lastly, the future proposals (in general) do seem to revolve around more localised grid solutions, and that is probably a good thing for continuity and efficiency of power delivery. The UK has more wind than the rest of Europe combined - I can't understand why we are not installing wind generators wholesale at the moment - it's not that hard these days.
phb10186 said:
Whether the nuclear age becomes the hydrogen age here in the US depends upon the number of political sandbags and Trumpions dumping on the idea. The problem here is huge (again assuming the accuracy of the DOE number). I don't know if such numbers are available in the UK or the EU, but it would be interesting to see for comparison to the US numbers. The problem with not converting the existing natural gas infrastructure to hydrogen here is that the burning natural gas in the US alone may be sufficient to cause climate change in which case without a conversion we are doomed.
Let me say that I have nothing but great things to say about Elon Musk. I realize that Elon opines that hydrogen is a poor form of energy for automotive purposes, but in fact that opinion may be altered down the road because of the natural gas problem. Let's assume that he recognized the use of natural gas for heating and other purposes in conjunction with the ICE problem and instead of a supercharger network, he [also] created a hydrogen network from part of the existing natural gas network and used the AU conversion method described in the link that I posted above (this:
https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2016/jul/22/cheap-and-clean-australian-company-creates-hydrogen-with-near-zero-emissions ). Where would he be today?
My unfounded belief is that his Tesla vehicles may have a hydrogen option (perhaps looking like this: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1113720_a-tesla-model-s-that-runs-on-hydrogen-fuel-cells-dutch-firm-claims-it-built-one ) and that he could sell access to that network to the other automotive manufacturers much easier than he could the supercharger network. And what about the Nikola truck hydrogen network? Where is that coming from if not the existing natural gas network? Ah, well, such is the joy of speculation!
As to H2 compressing, being no engineer, I have no idea what is would take to provide the homeowner with a device to either (a) compress hydrogen for their 'Mirai' or other FCEV assuming a hydrogen network, or (b) convert natural gas to hydrogen (at home perhaps using the AU methodology) and then compress it for homeowner use assuming no hydrogen network. If a clever engineer could come up with a device for (b) at a reasonable cost, then I believe that hordes would buy them as well as FCEVs, after all it is the H2 delivery that is the problem. Who on this forum wouldn't buy one and an FCEV if the H2 device cost $1,000.00? Both my wife and I would like to get an EV or FCEV that went 400+ miles and probably would if all it took was a home based converter/compressor that was clean. It could also eliminate all other gas burning devices in the home either at once or by phased in to address your boiler problem (and assuming that you have gas despite the turmoil from shutting down the UK storage and that your boiler couldn't be converted to hydrogen - or could it?). Would you or any other forum member buy one?
In Phoenix, we have Southwest Gas, ( https://www.swgas.com ); they have 2 million customers (we're not one unfortunately but its available if we want it). If they could double the gas sold because their customers bought FCEVs and could convert the natural gas and supply their own home hydrogen, then the doom that I referred to above may be substantially reduced as the home natural gas converter/compressor solves both the natural gas problem shown in the DOE link as well as a good part of the ICE problem. To address the wind issue, it may be that the UK can eliminate hydrocarbons because of the wind; but we have no substantial wind here in the Phoenix area. We do have sun, but try telling that to the 2 million SG customers who pay less for their gas than the rest of us using electric and more than likely those SG customer don't have solar panels and don't care about them.
No doubt we would still need BEVs and a substantial charging network because of the number of folks with no natural gas access.
On the other hand, who wants to take a shot at that device?
phb10186
Well-known member
^ so, the main problem with installing wind turbines wholesale, as I understand it, is that building permission is constantly challenged by people who live in areas where these may be in sight, so the extremely slow and bureaucratic planning laws have resulted in a lot of successful challenges. There are large parts of the UK that are protected from such installations: 'areas of outstanding natural beauty', national parks, land the church owns, land owned by royals/ dukes/ lords/ earls all that stuff, tourism industry objections, compensation for spoiling of people's nice views of a field... the list is endless. In fact, even The Donald has fought an off-shore wind development that was 'too close' to one of his Scottish golf courses.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/22/trump-resumes-fight-against-windfarm-near-his-golf-course
Of course there is always the now vs later arguement too, as the new wind turbines are far more efficient than the old ones, and keep getting better and better... not so sure about off-sure installations, they seem rather expensive to me vs sticking one on land.
You do need multiple solutions to these problems, and I can easily see a Hydrogen Tesla offering (would be short-sighted to believe Musk isn't going there too).
As far as Hydrogen as a fuel goes, I'd say bring it on - but the problem is these relatively doable things end up costing the public sector (all of us) 10 times the original amount, take 6 times longer than anticipated, push up taxes and consume money that could be used on other stuff, and then you end up having to finance the domestic installation yourself - and to top it all off the energy supply companies continue to make billions in profits for their shareholders... so happy to pay, but i'm not happy to finance any more billionaire yachts in the French Riviera.
To that end, perhaps the perfect vehicle is a Hydrogen BEV with a gasoline range extender... fill it up with anything and it will move.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/22/trump-resumes-fight-against-windfarm-near-his-golf-course
Of course there is always the now vs later arguement too, as the new wind turbines are far more efficient than the old ones, and keep getting better and better... not so sure about off-sure installations, they seem rather expensive to me vs sticking one on land.
You do need multiple solutions to these problems, and I can easily see a Hydrogen Tesla offering (would be short-sighted to believe Musk isn't going there too).
As far as Hydrogen as a fuel goes, I'd say bring it on - but the problem is these relatively doable things end up costing the public sector (all of us) 10 times the original amount, take 6 times longer than anticipated, push up taxes and consume money that could be used on other stuff, and then you end up having to finance the domestic installation yourself - and to top it all off the energy supply companies continue to make billions in profits for their shareholders... so happy to pay, but i'm not happy to finance any more billionaire yachts in the French Riviera.
To that end, perhaps the perfect vehicle is a Hydrogen BEV with a gasoline range extender... fill it up with anything and it will move.
rmay635703
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2014
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- 87
I really don’t get why we would convert natural gas to hydrogen.
Making natural gas into hydrogen creates more pollution than just burning the natural gas.
Making natural gas into hydrogen creates more pollution than just burning the natural gas.
rmay635703
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2014
- Messages
- 87
Phximiev said:
But their analysis is fundamentally flawed,
Natural gas isn’t 65% efficient anymore in most use cases.
Natural gas Cogen for example is much more efficient than their hazer process
Compression of either gas is very wasteful but more so on H2
I wish them luck but more efficient H2 is still not a good transport solution, maybe good for stationary but I wonder how much vested cost in the system?
rmay635703 said:
The vested cost and efficiency questions will hopefully be answered by the project.
We drive EV which hopefully down the road will mitigate the CO2 emissions from that category. But what about the other:
"Here in the US, assuming the DOE is correct by their site: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=75&t=11
Then, the 1,485 million metric tons of CO2 produced from the burning of natural gas must be addressed as part of the formula for fixing climate change."
It really is a completely separate problem. Any other suggestions than converting the whole mess to hydrogen?
PV1
Well-known member
In our house currently, the following devices run on propane (since we don't live near any gas infrastructure):Phximiev said:
1. Furnace
2. Clothes Dryer
3. Water Heater
4. Stove and Oven
In the new house I'm planning, everything will be electric and run 100% by off-grid solar. For heat, I'll primarily be using radiant floors with solar evacuated tubes, but will have a mini-split heat pump as backup. The clothes dryer I'm looking at is a heat pump unit. No fuel required, and 2-3 times more energy efficient than a conventional electric dryer. Hot water will be provided by the same evacuated tubes that heat the floors. For cooking, an induction cooktop and an air fryer will largely replace the need for a conventional oven/stove. More energy efficient and much faster cook times (a plate of French fries usually takes half an hour in the oven, but only 15 minutes in the air fryer at 1,500 watts.
Sure, this all has a higher upfront cost, but given that the kit will have zero utility bills, ROI should be relatively quick. To adapt this to regular homes, whole-house heat pumps have been around for a long time, and modern mini-splits work well below freezing. Heat pump dryers are a little harder to find, but are available on Amazon. Solar hot water systems are pretty commonplace, as are electric stove/oven combos. You could take an all-electric house, throw some solar on the roof, and be mostly done just like that.
