Preferred Fast Charger Location Discussion

[iwatson]

[/quote]Every 24-hour highway rest stop in the US should have DC fast chargers. Additionally, every gas station with a 24-hour convenience store should have DC fast chargers. [/quote]

I think a much better location for DC fast chargers is Mcdonalds restaurants. A trip to Mcdonalds usually lasts about 20-30 minutes. A perfect amount of time for a DC fast charge. Usually when I go to a convenience store I'm only there 5 minutes or so. I'd much rather spend 30 minutes at a Mickey D's sucking down a Mocha Latte or scarfing down a Big Mac. Plus McDonalds are located along major interstate highways, just off the exit ramp in nearly every small town in the U.S. Additionally, I think their management might be inclined to offer the charging for free, if they could realize that they would be bringing in a new customer base that has as it's sole reason for stopping in, to kill 30 minutes. The free charging perk would also keep that customer away from the competition.

As for the perfect EV. It's rumored that Chevy is getting a 200 mile EV ready for a 2016 release. The rumored vehicle is built on the Chevy Sonic platform which means small, but rumored to be styled like a mini-SUV.

 

[jray3]

I think a much better location for DC fast chargers is Mcdonalds restaurants. A trip to Mcdonalds usually lasts about 20-30 minutes. A perfect amount of time for a DC fast charge. Usually when I go to a convenience store I'm only there 5 minutes or so. I'd much rather spend 30 minutes at a Mickey D's sucking down a Mocha Latte or scarfing down a Big Mac. Plus McDonalds are located along major interstate highways, just off the exit ramp in nearly every small town in the U.S. Additionally, I think their management might be inclined to offer the charging for free, if they could realize that they would be bringing in a new customer base that has as it's sole reason for stopping in, to kill 30 minutes. The free charging perk would also keep that customer away from the competition.

I'm with you, iwatson. Tacoma EV Association has chosen a McDonald's with an attached "travel plaza" as our #1 target for fast charger installation.
http://www.mcwashington.com/10388/
If we meet with success or learn any lessons, I'll post 'em here.

 

[alohart]

Making it more attractive to eat at FatDonald's seems like a very poor goal considering the obesity crisis in the U.S. Certainly there must be much better public charger locations.

 

[jray3]

Making it more attractive to eat at FatDonald's seems like a very poor goal considering the obesity crisis in the U.S. Certainly there must be much better public charger locations.

This may go way off topic quickly, but I'll take the bait and disagree. Besides the fact that McDonald's has made great strides on healthier menu offerings and is the only fast food restaurant that I've seen prominently post nutrition information, if we are ever going to get widespread EV adoption, McDonald's is exactly where we need to be. I would hate to see EVSE only offered at Starbucks and Whole Foods, which is all that many people would need to confirm the stereotype that electric vehicles are only for fad-chasing liberal posers with more money than sense.

 

[iwatson]

Making it more attractive to eat at FatDonald's seems like a very poor goal considering the obesity crisis in the U.S. Certainly there must be much better public charger locations.

Believe it or not, Everyday people buy electric cars! Not just those who like to tell everybody else how to live their life. If I choose to go to Mcdonalds why is that any of your beeswax? Could I also not make unhealthy food choices at a convenience store? Whether or not you live in reality (and apparently you don't since your address is in utopia), there's no denying that Mcdonalds is a very successful business (That fact also bothers the do-gooders of the world). They have a lot of locations, locations that are convenient to the highway system in the continental 48. An average visit is 20-30 minutes. And what do travelers like to do when they stop to refuel????? Trust me if Mcdonalds had DC fast charging at all their locations you could still go, they also have salads and free wi-fi, pointing to the fact that they are into tech and responsive to customer trends.

 

[Don]

Besides the fact that McDonald's has made great strides on healthier menu offerings and is the only fast food restaurant that I've seen prominently post nutrition information, if we are ever going to get widespread EV adoption, McDonald's is exactly where we need to be.

Subway would be a much better choice all around. Their fare is much healthier than McDonalds . . . . they list nutrition information on their napkins comparing them to McDonalds and Burger King. Additionally, there are lots more Subway restaurants than McDonalds and even small towns which don't have a McDonalds usually have at least one Subway

The Kia Soul EV is an interesting study. One thing that caught my eye is the 31 extra miles of range they have with the 27 Kw battery as compared to our 62 miles from 16 Kw. All things being equal, you would expect to see a 50% increase in range (62 to 93) from a 50% larger pack (16 Kw to 24 Kw) but it actually takes 27 Kw to achieve it. I think we're seeing the decrease in efficiency we would expect to see from lugging around ever larger battery packs and it only gets worse as you try extending the range with ever larger batteries

Also, I don't think the Soul would be as useful a vehicle if they redesigned the body trying to significantly lower the Cd. Like our iMiEV, the Cd is poor because the car is a smallish box which carries a large (and practical) payload. I think you pick your priorities . . . . you either want a sleek car which will go far at freeway speeds . . . . or . . . . you want a practical around town car which can haul anything you stuff into it. Any balance between the two makes it not really great at either

I like the 6.6 Kw charger and with the 93 miles of range and the ChaDeMo outlet, it seems like a very practical car to me - They only need to work on the price and making the rear seats flat folding and I think they have a winner just as it is!

Don

 

[Don]

Believe it or not, Everyday people buy electric cars! Not just those who like to tell everybody else how to live their life. If I choose to go to Mcdonalds why is that any of your beeswax? Whether or not you live in reality (and apparently you don't since your address is in utopia), there's no denying that Mcdonalds is a very successful business (That fact also bothers the do-gooders of the world).

Easily he least helpful, least respectful, least polite post I have read on this forum in my 2 1/2 years here

Definitely not the tone most of us enjoy - This has always been a very respectful, courteous forum and we don't come here looking for these sorts of comments. Think before you post please

Don

 

[fjpod]

IMHO, you don't fuel up your car at a restaurant or a store. You fuel-up at a fueling station...in common terms, a gas station. This is where the quick chargers should be. Everybody would know where to find them. Look, somebody's gotta make a buck on this. Maybe independent station owners could use the income,... free from Big Oil's grasp.

Me?...I'm happy to fuel up at home at night, which is best for the environment.

 

[JoeS]

Trust it's ok that I created this stand-alone thread and moved the posts over here.

What we're trying to address is an 'ideal' location for DC Fast Chargers, DC Quick Chargers, or whatever the generic name is for the CHAdeMO, CCS, or Tesla Supercharger standards. We're talking about longer-distance highway travel and not our local everyday driving where home charging prevails. The exception, of course, is a situation such as alohart's where he still does not have home charging in his condo and is forced to use public charging - in his case (as an example), I submit that a closeby DCQC would be a terrific benefit - and if he could grab a cup of coffee or a snack while waiting, it would be welcomed.

For my wife and myself, both retired, the iMiEV suits all of our local driving needs admirably. I often wish I had CHAdeMO because I would like to start taking intermediate-length trips again (>35miles one way) without the aggravation of being PIPed, VOLTed, or Energiid, at my destination (these plug-in hybrids seemingly outnumber BEVs at public charging stations). As it is, without CHAdeMO I look for L2 charging spots which allow for a very leisurely lunch or dinner and Wi-Fi so I can catch up on my reading on my iPad. If I had CHAdeMO, a full-blown restaurant would not be necessary, and a smaller fast-food joint would suffice - we ARE health conscious, but even McD's has a few healthy options and they have Wi-Fi. If they had DCQC the 400-mile trip from home to Medford (a regular run for us) might even be doable in one day in the i-MiEV (12-hour trip - ouch!), since California has stumbled badly in developing the DCQC infrastructure along major highways (go Tesla!).

Suffice it to say, IMO Fast Chargers should be located next to other amenities or at least places where one could go for a nice 1/2-hour walk while the car is being charged.

 

[RobertC]

DC fast chargers should be located based on the following criteria:

Minimum requirements:
1. Security cameras 24 hours.
2. Staffed 24 hours.
3. Well lit at night.
4. Bathrooms available 24 hours.

The most important requirement for locating DC fast chargers is that myself, my wife, and my soon to be driving teenage daughters are safe when charging, both day and night. Whether its 10:00AM during the workweek, or 2:00AM in the morning, or 7:00PM on a Sunday night, there should be security cameras and at least one staff person on site.

Locations that meet these criteria include 24-hour gas stations, 24-hour convenience stores, staffed 24-hour highway service plazas, and 24-hour businesses.

In New Jersey, locations that would qualify would be: service plazas on the NJ Turnpike, Garden State Parkway and AC Expressway; Wawa convenience stores and gas stations; 7-11 convenience stores; 24-hour pharmacies; 24-hour Denny's; and 24-hour Wal-Marts. There are dozens of these potential locations within 50 miles of where I live.

The longest time I have charged at a DC fast charger is less than 20 minutes, and the real advantage of DC fast chargers is the speed at which you can charge to 80%. If more DC fast chargers were available, it would be much more efficient to stop at two DC fast chargers during a trip instead of waiting at one to charge from 80% to 100%.

Finally, a teenage girl finishing her shift at midnight should have a safe place to stop and charge for 5 to 20 minutes to get enough charge to get home. DC fast chargers should only be located in areas that are secure at nights and on weekends.

 

[Don]

DC fast chargers should be located based on the following criteria:

Minimum requirements:
1. Security cameras 24 hours.
2. Staffed 24 hours.
3. Well lit at night.
4. Bathrooms available 24 hours.

Finally, a teenage girl finishing her shift at midnight should have a safe place to stop and charge for 5 to 20 minutes to get enough charge to get home. DC fast chargers should only be located in areas that are secure at nights and on weekends.

I agree 100% that security is far and away the most important criteria - Everything else is way, way secondary . . . . but, if I had a teenage daughter who finished a shift at midnight and drove an EV that couldn't make it home without stopping to recharge some place, I think I'd buy her a different car . . . .

Don

 

[PV1]

Believe it or not, Everyday people buy electric cars! Not just those who like to tell everybody else how to live their life. If I choose to go to Mcdonalds why is that any of your beeswax? Whether or not you live in reality (and apparently you don't since your address is in utopia), there's no denying that Mcdonalds is a very successful business (That fact also bothers the do-gooders of the world).

Easily the least helpful, least respectful, least polite post I have read on this forum in my 2 1/2 years here

Definitely not the tone most of us enjoy - This has always been a very respectful, courteous forum and we don't come here looking for these sorts of comments. Think before you post please

Don

I know. Where did that come from? :?

Though they may not be the healthiest choices, places like McDonald's, Sheetz, and Wendy's are going to need quick charging if EV adoption is to really take off. Tesla is placing most of their Superchargers at shopping malls and fast food stores like Wendy's and Carl's Jr. Sheetz has quick chargers in central PA, and I recently sent them an email to see if they plan on putting more quick chargers in closer to my neck of the woods.

When we had the BMW i3 on extended test drive, we drove 50 miles north, stopped at a McDonald's, and drove to the nearby Eaton Power Systems Experience Center to charge the car while we ate. Couldn't quick charge since BMW opted not to have quick charging on the REx model (the BEV model has the combo plug anyway :roll: ), but level 2 at 6.6 kW wasn't bad: 25 miles in an hour. Nearly made it home with that on electricity only, probably would've if I hadn't taken the highway back, but we had the REx and I was curious how that functioned.

Anyway, I don't quite agree with the encouragement of eating fast food while your car charges, but that's what we'll have to deal with to aid adoption. It's just so, *convenient*. A lot of people just don't like sitting and waiting. Me? I'll sit at a charging station for an hour or two (I've done that for a week while my EVSE was getting upgraded), but a lot of people won't.

Optimal charging locations:
Level 1 - Home, airport, work
Level 2 - Convention Centers, Sports Fields (Pittsburgh's PNC Park or Heinz Field, for example), work for longer range EVs, larger shopping malls, tourist attractions
DC-QC - Fast food restaurants, Standalone stores (Walgreens, Giant Eagle, Whole Foods, Wal-Mart, for example), Travel Plazas, Gas Stations (Sheetz, Pilot, etc.)

 

[PV1]

but, if I had a teenage daughter who finished a shift at midnight and drove an EV that couldn't make it home without stopping to recharge some place, I think I'd buy her a different car . . . .

Don

...Or a different job, or charge at work, something. :lol: I couldn't imagine commuting more than 60 miles 1-way for work, but if that was the case, I'd be buying a PHEV or straight hybrid.

 

[Vike]

Very interesting discussion (and a tad aggravating, but I'll get to that in a bit). I think the point about secure 24-hr access is a good one that I hadn't previously considered. Travel plazas with eateries are good for highway country, though obviously less relevant to urban settings (I would add a note of caution regarding Walmart parking lots, which have a long history of poor night-time security and crime, both petty and violent). More generally, I've always liked the idea of putting DCQC in a public place where there is plenty to do for 20-30 minutes (dining is the most obvious choice). But the added features of secure, well-lit 24-hour availability are very practical and well considered - they're now on my list.

What I did find a little aggravating was this thread I noticed yesterday. I decided to sleep on it before commenting, because it put me in too peevish a mood to trust my tone.

I think a much better location for DC fast chargers is Mcdonalds restaurants. A trip to Mcdonalds usually lasts about 20-30 minutes. A perfect amount of time for a DC fast charge.

Making it more attractive to eat at FatDonald's seems like a very poor goal considering the obesity crisis in the U.S. Certainly there must be much better public charger locations.

Believe it or not, Everyday people buy electric cars! Not just those who like to tell everybody else how to live their life. If I choose to go to Mcdonalds why is that any of your beeswax? Whether or not you live in reality (and apparently you don't since your address is in utopia), there's no denying that Mcdonalds is a very successful business (That fact also bothers the do-gooders of the world).

Easily the least helpful, least respectful, least polite post I have read on this forum in my 2 1/2 years here

Definitely not the tone most of us enjoy - This has always been a very respectful, courteous forum and we don't come here looking for these sorts of comments. Think before you post please

I know. Where did that come from? :?

First off, PV1, where it came from was alohart's non-sequitur response to iwatson's entirely reasonable suggestion of locating DCQC at places where it is convenient to stop for almost exactly the right amount of time. Being able to sit down with something to read/browse, a coffee and/or a snack is a big plus, so McDs are appropriate locations for exactly the reasons he noted. Putting aside the bare fact that healthy snacks are available at McD's if that's what you want, it was basically unreasonable for alohart to insert a socio-political public health argument into a discussion about EVs. If you think that sounds like a contradiction, that's exactly your problem. What the people on this forum share is an interest in the electrification of the personal automobile, a single idea that might be a component of many different, partially compatible agendas. If we don't want this forum to degenerate into the sort of idiotic red/blue mudslinging that marks so much of today's online experience, please let's try to stay on topic.

Don, you're a moderator here and bear special responsibility for keeping things on an even keel. That's why I was especially disappointed in your rather heavy-handed one-sided slam of iwatson's post complaining about the discussion being diverted to an agenda he doesn't share. Why doesn't alohart have to think before he posts? Your characterization of iwatson's post as being "the least helpful, least respectful, least polite" thing you've seen here was utter nonsense, and you know it. You've tolerated anti-EV trolls on this forum engaging in rants and exchanges that were both ill-informed and impolite, and with far less pushback than you've directed at poor iwatson here. I don't object to that earlier tolerance, but rather to what seems to be this rather selective exercise of your disapproval.

As to your counter-proposal:

Subway would be a much better choice all around. Their fare is much healthier than McDonalds . . . . they list nutrition information on their napkins comparing them to McDonalds and Burger King. Additionally, there are lots more Subway restaurants than McDonalds and even small towns which don't have a McDonalds usually have at least one Subway

. . . surely you are aware that Subways are almost never "locations" per se - they're often little more than kiosks in travel plazas or other facilities, and usually just a smallish storefront in a strip. McD's, by contrast, are usually freestanding restaurants with more control over their parking lots and any amenities thereon. While I would agree that a third party looking to locate DCQC would find a Subway on the premises a definite plus, that's a different matter; the decision or agreement would involve the strip mall manager, not the Subway franchisee. In the context of this discussion, we're talking apples and oranges here, and Subway just doesn't play an equivalent role.

 

[Don]

Don, you're a moderator here and bear special responsibility for keeping things on an even keel. That's why I was especially disappointed in your rather heavy-handed one-sided slam of iwatson's post complaining about the discussion being diverted to an agenda he doesn't share. Why doesn't alohart have to think before he posts? Your characterization of iwatson's post as being "the least helpful, least respectful, least polite" thing you've seen here was utter nonsense, and you know it. You've tolerated anti-EV trolls on this forum engaging in rants and exchanges that were both ill-informed and impolite, and with far less pushback than you've directed at poor iwatson here. I don't object to that earlier tolerance, but rather to what seems to be this rather selective exercise of your disapproval.

Personal attacks are (thankfully) very rare here. Everyone needs to think before they post, but especially before you choose to personally attack another member. alohart said nothing personal against iwatson, but his reply attacking him personally was (IMO) unwarranted. To call someone a 'doogooder' and 'not living in reality' because of where they happen to live does nothing to further the discussion. True, we've had anti-EV trolls post rants here in the past, but I can't recall any of them getting personal to this degree - All he said was in his opinion there would be better places to put QC stations than at 'FatDonalds' - Disagree if you like, but don't attack someone personally just because his/her opinion differs from your own

Don

 

[DonDakin]

My take on this is that qc should be used as city connectors first before being placed in cities for convenience, that being said Highway reststops with 24 hour personnel would be the natural choice.

After city pairs are connected Then qc might be placed in cities. Regardless of the restaurant any "fast-food" place would be a good starting point. Safety would also be my highest concern so the qc unit should be in a place close to people and visible while you eat and very well lit. Surveillance would be great also.

After fast food joints qc could really be placed anywhere, gas stations,malls,hotels,even just on the street corners anywhere you can park for 15-30 minutes. Skys really the limit here as there is so little infrastructure needed compared to a gas station.

On a related topic I always thought L2 should be placed at cinemas and drive ins. Nothing like taking in a double feature while you charge up....

Don......

 

[Vike]

My take on this is that qc should be used as city connectors first before being placed in cities for convenience

This gets back to the basic question of what DCQC is for, and there are legitimate differences of opinion on that. I agree with you in limited circumstances, depending on what you mean by "city connector". I think I live in such circumstances, since Albuquerque and Santa Fe, the main cities of north central New Mexico, are separated by about the range of a brand-new i-MiEV (unfortunately most directly by 75mph interstate), each city is quite compact in itself, and it's all quite far from everywhere else. It would be a great convenience for EVs to be able to move freely between them, but as it stands every EV save a Tesla would be dependent on some public charging infrastructure to accomplish that, preferably with some DCQC midway between the towns. The nature of the problem makes the required infrastructure fairly easy to locate and build; probably a half-dozen DCQC locations could do the whole job. For similarly disposed city pairs (or other limited groupings), connectors would help a lot. What I think does NOT work is the use of EVs for longer-distance travel. If you need more than two full charges to complete an itinerary, the need to take multiple half-hour breaks (and subject the batteries to multiple L3 slams) may render the trip impractical.

On the other hand, I do think that placing DCQC within cities is more than a matter of convenience. Not all cities are as compact as ABQ or Santa Fe; "urban sprawl" is so common a phenomenon that it's earned its own moniker. I lived most of my life in northeast Ohio (NEOH), with population sprawled around half a dozen counties and hundreds of square miles. Cleveland's far East and West sides did tend to be separate worlds, in addition to the exurban South blending into Greater Akron, but I spent a good deal of time traveling around the region for work, events, or family gatherings. An EV would not be a practical only car for many people there without some public charging infrastructure, and some days just wouldn't be manageable without some judiciously distributed DCQC (of which there is just about none at this time), especially in the chilly winters. Since this isn't really an either/or, I think DCQC should be pursued for both regional travel and range extension for traversing urban sprawl.

To another subject - While I don't want to spend too much more time on forum etiquette, Don raised a point about the MickeyD controversy that I think deserves an answer:

True, we've had anti-EV trolls post rants here in the past, but I can't recall any of them getting personal to this degree - All he said was in his opinion there would be better places to put QC stations than at 'FatDonalds' - Disagree if you like, but don't attack someone personally just because his/her opinion differs from your own

I do appreciate the distinction. That said, I think a milder rebuke was in order. Whether or not you agree with his point, I stand by my assessment that alohart's admonition on the evils of McD's also did nothing to further the discussion. Nothing indicated the remark was even half-joking, and depending on one's perspective it might easily have been taken as "yet another smug message from a fan of the nanny state" (this certainly seems to have been iwatson's take), so arriving as it did in this context it was fairly provocative. alohart got more measured pushback from a few parties for different reasons, but I tend to think that if you choose to set the cat amongst the pigeons, don't complain if you're hit with a few droppings (and I notice that alohart hasn't).

I guess I'm saying that I didn't mean to suggest I excused the ad hominem aspects of iwatson's post, but overall I found his reaction neither surprising nor unprovoked. Given that, I just think you seemed a bit harsh.

 

[jray3]

surely you are aware that Subways are almost never "locations" per se - they're often little more than kiosks in travel plazas or other facilities, and usually just a smallish storefront in a strip. McD's, by contrast, are usually freestanding restaurants with more control over their parking lots and any amenities thereon. While I would agree that a third party looking to locate DCQC would find a Subway on the premises a definite plus, that's a different matter; the decision or agreement would involve the strip mall manager, not the Subway franchisee. In the context of this discussion, we're talking apples and oranges here, and Subway just doesn't play an equivalent role.

This is exactly why Tacoma EVA chose McD's as our candidate 'most likely to succeed'. McD's have dedicated transformers and ample electric service, unlike Subway. An interesting side effect of this discussion is that for the first time EVer, I just saw banner ads for McD's on the bottom of this forum!


Don Dakin's "My take on this is that qc should be used as city connectors first before being placed in cities for convenience" was also my point of view before I had CHAdeMO. I now use DCQC 4-5 times on 'local' trips for each inter-city usage. In a metro area, fast charging greatly broadens the (non-Tesla) EV's practicality. I ferried the family circus over 125 miles on both Friday and Saturday, thanks to fast charging pit stops.

(btw- the soccer moms think that MR BEAN would look cute with a bunch of white hexagon stickers to make like a ball!)

 

[RobertC]

My original post.

Finally, a teenage girl finishing her shift at midnight should have a safe place to stop and charge for 5 to 20 minutes to get enough charge to get home. DC fast chargers should only be located in areas that are secure at nights and on weekends.

The post said nothing about owning "an EV that couldn't make it home without stopping to recharge," or "commuting more than 60 miles 1-way for work." The post used an example of a teenage girl who is low on charge needs to stop and charge late at night to get home after work.

but, if I had a teenage daughter who finished a shift at midnight and drove an EV that couldn't make it home without stopping to recharge some place, I think I'd buy her a different car . . . .

...Or a different job, or charge at work, something. :lol: I couldn't imagine commuting more than 60 miles 1-way for work, but if that was the case, I'd be buying a PHEV or straight hybrid.

Tonight in the US, there will probably be thousands of young female drivers who are low on gas need to stop late at night to put gas in their cars. They will stop at well lit gas stations that are staffed and usually have security cameras and bathrooms. My point was that electric vehicle drivers should expect the same safety when they stop to DC fast charge.

Would you put a single gas pump in a poorly lit area where there was no one around at night?

Believe it or not, Everyday people buy electric cars! Not just those who like to tell everybody else how to live their life.

Like turning a discussion about the best location for fast chargers into a discussion about what car they would buy their daughters.

 

[Zelenec]

Our government has chosen locations for fast charging stations in national FC network according to the following criteria:
1. all motorways have to be covered
2. the distance between the stations is about 50 km
3. microlocations adapt to existing infrastructure (100kW connection option)
4. every charging station has to support 3 standards: CCS Combo 2, CHAdeMO and Type 2 AC / Mode3