Not an owner (yet?)

[toecheese]

Hello,

I'm slowly looking for an electric car. Would an iMiev/c-zero/iOn be a good starting point for me? Why? Why not?

What I would like:
- affordable in the long term. I understand this to mean a somewhat repairable/replaceable battery.
- safe
- space for four adults (doesn't have to be super large and comfortable)
- range in summer @85 km/h:
- either 120 km and quick charging (most chargers here still have chademo)
- or preferably 250km and no quick charging needed
- mechanical parts easily maintainable by a local workshop
- affordable in the long term: battery cells relatively easy to replace
- battery not too unhappy with occasional extreme cold (-25C)

I couldn't care less about colour, tire type, luxury, the occasional dent or scratch.

Skills and willingness to fiddle:
- basic electronics (soldering, esp32, ...)
- software (basic firmware reverse engineering, linux, ...)
- 3d printing
- NO high voltage experience, but willing to pick this up
- I wouldn't mind setting a can bridge or whatever.


What do you think? Would an iMiev/c-zero/iOn be something for me?

Looking forward to your hints!

toecheese

 

[JoeS]

I'm slowly looking for an electric car. Would an iMiev/c-zero/iOn be a good starting point for me? Why? Why not?

What I would like:
- affordable in the long term. I understand this to mean a somewhat repairable/replaceable battery.
- safe
- space for four adults (doesn't have to be super large and comfortable)
- range in summer @85 km/h:
- either 120 km and quick charging (most chargers here still have chademo)
- or preferably 250km and no quick charging needed
- mechanical parts easily maintainable by a local workshop
- affordable in the long term: battery cells relatively easy to replace
- battery not too unhappy with occasional extreme cold (-25C)

I couldn't care less about colour, tire type, luxury, the occasional dent or scratch.

Skills and willingness to fiddle:
- basic electronics (soldering, esp32, ...)
- software (basic firmware reverse engineering, linux, ...)
- 3d printing
- NO high voltage experience, but willing to pick this up
- I wouldn't mind setting a can bridge or whatever.

What do you think? Would an iMiev/c-zero/iOn be something for me?

Looking forward to your hints!

toecheese

@toecheese, welcome and thanks for asking, especially as you identified your requirements.

1) Affordability as you have defined it for the long term - battery replacement from the manufacturer is prohibitively expensive (>$15KUSD), but you can peruse the ongoing efforts of some of our members doing their own replacement. e.g.,
https://myimiev.com/threads/the-aftermarket-cell-replacement-saga.4403/
and do a search for "Battery Replacement" to see more.

2) Safety is relative. I don't recall any posts on this forum of anyone being killed or seriously injured in an i-MiEV, but it has undoubtedly happened. The car handles well and is sprightly and I've escaped a number of accidents by reacting quickly and the car not letting me down.

3) Space - four adults fit ok, but the car's main attraction for me is that the rear seats fold down completely flat and the car becomes a capacious station wagon for two people.

4) Range - at 85km/hour, when new on a single charge the i-MiEV would have had a hard time achieving 120km (more like 100km), and with the now-ten-year-old+ cars it would be hard-pressed to achieve 80km. With CHAdeMO and a 15-minute stop to charge, 120km would be no problem even now. All depends on the battery State of Health. I have made many trips exceeding 250km with CHAdeMO charging - just plan on taking your time and catching up on emails or going for a walk while the car is charging. As a daily commuter, I would not expect to do more than 60km round trip.

5) Mechanical part replacement - I personally don't know as haven't needed to do anything significant in 12 years other than replace tires.

6) Extreme cold (-25°C) - living in California, this is incomprehensible to me but we do have some members in Norway and...

It's always fun to know where in the world someone is located, as we occasionally find other i-MiEV owners close to us. You might consider updating your profile (which will show your location by your username whenever you post), the procedure described here:
https://myimiev.com/threads/admin-how-to-let-us-know-where-you-are-located.5446/

For me, the biggest drawback to tinkering with the car (and all modern cars) is the need to understand the car's CANbus as they're all computers on wheels and when something goes wrong you start by looking for DTCs and go from there. There is support for this in terms of tools and apps -
https://myimiev.com/threads/testing-and-monitoring-apps-and-tools-and-scanners.4950/
and the body of knowledge on this forum is growing as people buy inoperable EVs and share their experiences.

The primary Achilles Heel of the car is failure of the Onboard Charger (OBC) which also contains the dc-dc converter to feed the 12v battery, but there is an excellent thread on repairing it.
https://myimiev.com/threads/the-tro...rd-charger-obc-thread.4079/page-70#post-50690

Perhaps others can chime in?

 

[MickeyS70]

Hello,

- space for four adults (doesn't have to be super large and comfortable)

It’s a tight fit for two adults in the back..

- range in summer @85 km/h:
- either 120 km and quick charging (most chargers here still have chademo)
- or preferably 250km and no quick charging needed

Not realistic expectations for a used triplet, unless you consider upgrading the HV battery to NMC cells

What do you think? Would an iMiev/c-zero/iOn be something for me?

If you’re willing to compromise on your range requirements or upgrade the cells, it might work out, otherwise I don’t think a triplet will be suitable for your needs, unfortunately.

 

[toecheese]

It’s a tight fit for two adults in the back..

Which is fine.

Not realistic expectations for a used triplet, unless you consider upgrading the HV battery to NMC cells

I _want_ to be able to redo the HV battery. How feasible that would be to do safely and properly I have no idea. I'd be starting from zero high voltage experience.

 

[MickeyS70]

I _want_ to be able to redo the HV battery. How feasible that would be to do safely and properly I have no idea. I'd be starting from zero high voltage experience.

Have a read through below:
https://myimiev.com/threads/main-traction-battery-upgrade-i-miev.5458/

 

[tomhanman]

I'm not an expert, but I am a person. I have been tinkering with one of these recently and with the Nissan Leaf for a long while. We're on the imiev forum so I'll say it quetly; I think you want a Leaf.

Better range, massive possibilities for tweaking, modifying, cell replacement for range improvement, even inverter replacement for power increase etc.

Enough space for four adults in comfort (it's not a Bently) plus connected services so long as you go post 2013.

And that's the key, finding the right one - 2013-2015 with heat pump, led lights and solar panel would be my choice for budget. You'll have to be careful about battery state, you'll need a pretty good 24kWh to do 120km, or a fairly average 30kWh. Then of course you can meddle.

Just don't tell anyone here I said so.

 

[hjdlsnbc]

Skills and willingness to fiddle:
- basic electronics (soldering, esp32, ...)
- software (basic firmware reverse engineering, linux, ...)

The imiev would fit your needs. Could you please get one? The whole community here needs people who could do firmware reverse engineering. The only person i know of who did firmware reverse engineering was @kolyandex but sadly he is selling his research outcome instead of sharing with all others.
The BMU firmware (the battery controller) can be configured up to 120Ah in the current firmware but its not been shared with others how this could be configured.
Also the ETACS firmware needs some reverse engineering. Or at least some help with config file understanding.

If you get a imiev model from 2012 or before, you would need to replace the battery more quickly. If you get a 2013 or more modern one, you would have the more modern LEV50N cells inside and would have enough time to reverse engineer the firmware and everything else before you could maybe have to replace the LEV50N cells at something over 200000-300000 km.
The imiev produce less maintenance cost then the leaf to my knowledge.
Please get one and get into this community here. The community here need your skills.

 

[tomhanman]

I wholeheartedly agree with the above. It would be great to have some serious coding ability on the project... Not least to help me remove all the ancillary components for my project without triggering turtle

I've put 120,000kms on my 2015 30kWh Leaf. I have changed the tyres twice, and I need a new rear windscreen wiper blade. But that's just one example.

 

[pbui19]

I often wonder about all the can-bus hoopla required to keep the iMiev going. Coming from the old school of EV-conversion and diysolar, can we not just gut/by-pass all the fancy stuff and operate the iMiev with simpe BMS/charger and a speed-controller ?

 

[tomhanman]

I often wonder about all the can-bus hoopla required to keep the iMiev going. Coming from the old school of EV-conversion and diysolar, can we not just gut/by-pass all the fancy stuff and operate the iMiev with simpe BMS/charger and a speed-controller ?

Well yes it would be possible. But it all comes down to cost and quality. The oem stuff like Leaf and Imiev is seriously solid engineering AND dirt cheap! I've got a crashed one for 500€ including Chademo fast charging.

The aftermarket world of chargers (slow only), controllers, bms etc is just super expensive. And fast charging is virtually impossible.

The downside is that my conversion would currently require me to run with a trailer carrying all the loom and extraneous bits and bobs!

It will be very challenging for me, and I will definitely need help, but if we can get this kit to run without the SRS climate and abs systems then it becomes a really good option for classic conversions. Either with the full rear subframe as it's narrow track makes it very suitable for the elder European vehicle. Or just the motor and controllers as I plan for my Peugeot 203 conversion because unlike most electric motors it doesn't turn too fast and only has a 6:1 reduction gear instead of the 8:1 in Leaf etc. Often a 6:1 diff will be available for a classic car that had a commercial variant and then using this doesn't need the gearbox or any mods to brakes etc because power stays very similar to original.

It all sounds so simple, just got to do it!

 

[MickeyS70]

I often wonder about all the can-bus hoopla required to keep the iMiev going. Coming from the old school of EV-conversion and diysolar, can we not just gut/by-pass all the fancy stuff and operate the iMiev with simpe BMS/charger and a speed-controller ?

There is no need for any ‘CAN-bus hoopla’, the stock FW will happily run even with higher capacity cells, only draw back is that one can only use the first 45Ah..

It will be very challenging for me, and I will definitely need help, but if we can get this kit to run without the SRS climate and abs systems then it becomes a really good option for classic conversions. Either with the full rear subframe as its narrow track makes it very suitable for the elder European vehicle.

You may want to talk to this guy:
https://myimiev.com/threads/i-miev-hot-rod-anyone.5072/

 

[tomhanman]

Thats a fantastic project. But quite different to what I'm planning. We've got a Peugeot 203 (1958), it's a monocoque so we can't use the imiev and stick a body on top. We'll be using the Peugeot chassis and engineering, with a diff from. The pickup variant, and the imiev electric motor in place of the original gearbox. The battery will be rebuilt with MG HS modules and split into three compartments. Two under the front seats and the other in place of the engine. The plan is a new enclosure housing the BMU and all CMU cards, then cables linking them to each of their corresponding cells. But we'll see.

The SRS isn't really the problem because it works without any airbags, so is quite a light thing to include if required and maintains the impact HV shutdown safety, which seems like a good plan! The problems I forsee are the lack of wheel speed sensors, power steering rack, dashboard, and climate control.

The guy with the BMW conversion did a lot of good work but then the blog just stopped (around covid). I Messaged him a while back, but no response so far.

 

[MickeyS70]

The plan is a new enclosure housing the BMU and all CMU cards, then cables linking them to each of their corresponding cells. But we'll see.

The CMUs provide cell voltage and temperature Information, while it’s simple enough to extend the lines to measure cell voltages, the (tiny) temperature sensors are actually located on the CMU boards?

Had to google what a 1958 Peugeot 203 looks like, gorgeous car…

 

[tomhanman]

Yep, the temperature sensors will be the challenge. I haven't had a close look at one yet. When I had a load of cmu cards they sold so fast I didn't get a chance! When I was building a Lithium battery to replace the 8 lead acids in my electric Moke (fun, but far from gorgeous!), I discovered that the temperature sensors built in to the MG ZS 2 EV lithium battery modules had the same temp/resistance gradient as those supplied with the Chinese bms I used. So I could keep the sensors on the modules and wire them straight up to the bms. I doubt I'll get that lucky again. But Assuming I can remove the temp sensors from the cmu then I hope we can move them, or get some more rugged types that match the specs and wire them in. If they're silly tiny then we'll have to think again. Just one of the 'fun' challenges to come!

 

[kiev]

If they're silly tiny then we'll have to think again.

They are. You could just get some new RTDs and solder or glue them wherever you want.