New Battery Pack at 2,000 Miles

[mradtke]

Hello,

I purchased my 2012 i-MiEV in November 2013 from a dealer in the Midwest with about 200 miles on it. I live in Phoenix.

When I first got the car it charged to 15/16 bars. However after a few cycles, it charged to 16/16 bars as expected. I did a few calibration cycles only because of my driving habits. I have another electric car, so I'm used to using my range. I don't have range anxiety, but rather range awareness. While I have the quick charge option, I have never used it. The car performed flawlessly for 2,000 miles until ...

I went on vacation in July. I left the car plugged in as usual, and when I returned after 2 weeks, the charge was at 9/16 bars. I drove it a few cycles, but the charge never came back up more than 9/16. So, I took it to the dealer.

In spite of living in a city, the size of Phoenix, there is only one dealer equipped to service the i-MiEV: Mark Mitsubishi. Even then, it isn't their main store that has the capability, but rather a satellite location which is tiny by comparison. However, the service department was very professional and treated me great.

When I arrived, they quickly took the car and started on their diagnostics. After about an hour and some phone calls, the mechanic reported that they were going to have to keep that car for a day and I was offered a loaner. the next day stretched into a couple of days, but eventually they reported that the car needed a new pack. I had to return to the dealer to fill out a questionnaire about the car's history, the problem, and my charging and driving habits. But, there was no question about doing the warranty battery replacement, even though it was the first that they had ever done.

During this process, I had the opportunity to see the pack in it's shipping container. I would have liked to see the battery out in the open, but I missed that. The shipping container was a huge steel box, almost as big as the car and about 3 feet high. It was air freighted from Los Angeles and several special service tools were shipped in as well, one of which I think was a fork lift truck.

Apparently the work went smoothly and after about 3 weeks elapsed time, I have my car back. Everything seems to be working as expected.

I'll report again if I have problems,

Thanks for listening,
Mike

 

[Mart]

I would say not to leave the car plugged in without use for a couple of weeks. Better to leave it at 50% SOC, especially in the Phoenix heat.

 

[iwatson]

The gist of your story is that you were well taken care of (loaner car and all), even though the dealer indicated that this was a rare event that even they, had not experienced before.

But there are some off-topic details that were left out. My curiosity has the best of me! Can you tell us what other electric car you own? What made you purchase the Mitsu? How does it compare to your other EV? If the other EV is a Leaf, how has it faired in the Arizona desert? Where did you get the Mitsu in the Midwest? How did you get it home? Why did your i-Miev only have 200 miles on it? In your opinion, why do think it failed?

Your story is interesting, but it sounds like your issue is resolved satisfactorily. Would love to know these other interesting details of your story?

 

[JoeS]

mradtke, thank you very much for your report. Glad to hear Mitsu took care of you and you now have a new pack. It sounds as though your pack was already in trouble from the get-go.

Did you leave the car plugged in for two weeks in July in an air-conditioned garage, or was it left exposed to the typical abysmal Phoenix heat while plugged in?

Those of us who purchased (not leased) the cars at full original price have a vested interest in battery longevity. On this forum we have had a lot of discussions regarding battery care, especially learning from the Arizona Leaf experience.

One of the members on this forum had shipped his i-MiEV inside a container to the South Pacitic, and the recommendation he received from Mitsu was to have it at 25%SoC when doing that, IIRC.

For example, I only fully charge the battery just before taking a longer trip - otherwise, I normally take it up to around 13 bars. Also, despite you having CHAdeMO and its battery cooling system, it evidently only kicks in when charging. If you're interested, here's a thread discussing ways of manually improving battery cooling if you have either CHAdeMO or the battery heating option: http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=10727#p10727

Good luck with your car and hopefully you're now stroking your new battery appropriately :roll:

 

[mradtke]

Thank you for all of your comments.

I'll address this in sort of the reverse order. The idea behind leaving the car plugged is that I purchased the car expecting a robust design and to be able to treat the car as if it were any other. I am aware of the wisdom of leaving the lithium battery at a reduced state of charge if the car is going to sit unused for some time. But, how long? If I were to leave the car for a month, then OK, I'd leave it at 1/2 charge. But, 2 weeks? I think not.

And, charging it before I use it? No, I don't think so. We are not early adopters, this car must be mainstream, or it can't compete. At least, that's my opinion.

To answer some of those other questions for background:

>Can you tell us what other electric car you own?
It is a 1979 Jet ElectraVan (google it). It is lead acid powered, goes about 1/2 as far as the i-MiEV, but I can leave it plugged in in Phoenix year round. However, the batteries last only about 700 full cycles, so it's not all that cheap to drive. I have driven the car for about 13 years now and about 25,000 miles.

>What made you purchase the Mitsu?
I considered modernizing the ElectraVan with a Lithium pack. However, the complete cost of doing that was roughly the same as the purchase price for the i-MiEV and I'd get an 8 year warranty on the Mitsubishi pack as well. That pretty much made it a no-brainer.

I drove several other new breed electrics and didn't like them. I liked the i-MiEV for its simplicity.
But still, my expectations were for a car that I didn't have to fuss with.

How does it compare to your other EV?
It is nice to have a modern car, but if its battery life without coddling is only 2 years in Phoenix, I prefer the ElectraVan.

>If the other EV is a LEAF, how has it faired in the Arizona desert?
Sorry, not a Leaf.

>Where did you get the Mitsu in the Midwest?
>How did you get it home?
>Why did your i-Miev only have 200 miles on it?
The i-MiEV came from Kansas. When I saw the prices dropping on the car, I started several negotiations with dealers across the country. My local dealer, in spite of the great service department was unwilling to find a car for me. I wanted an ES with the quick charge option. I couldn't find one before the factory rebates expired, so I gave up. Then on ebay, I started to see cars that the dealers bought, collected the rebates, and then were selling as used. I contacted one such dealer about a car that he listed. It didn't meet my requirements, but he had one in stock that did. We haggled on price, got some transportation quotes, and struck a deal. For the same money, I got a car that had never been privately titled, had 200 miles on it, and I didn't have to worry about claiming any rebates.

>In your opinion, why do think it failed?
I think that it is likely several cells failed in the pack, and I agree that the Phoenix heat may have a lot to do with it. Still, if electric cars are to survive they need to work in Phoenix and in Bemidji. Maybe I'm helping Mitsubishi develop a better pack. Maybe I just got one installed.

Mike

 

[iwatson]

Thanks Mike,

Again I was just curious, but the background story was very interesting. Lets hope that the battery failure was just a fluke, and that your i will perform flawlessly from here out. We bought one that sat on a dealers lot for 6 months during a very brutal winter. So far it has performed great.

Hopefully other owners that live in Phoenix or similar climates as your's can report on their experiences.

 

[Malm]

I wouldn't keep my car plugged even for a day. And surely wouldn´t keep it with full charge for a day too. So, keeping it like that for two weeks, specially with hot temperatures, that is surely not good.

Keeping the car plugged is not the same as keeping the car unplugged. I don´t know if it charges something after a full charge keeping it plugged, what I know is that I notice the sound of ventilation time to time when it is plugged, no matter if it is charging or not.

 

[Malm]

I´m going on holiday for a week in two days. Will leave it in the garage, where it will be 23º C all day, and certainly unplugged. I will leave it with 45-50% SoC, 7 bars (I think) and I bet I will find it in seven days without an difference.

And without the ELM STN1170. I can't forget that.

 

[mradtke]

Malm,

We certainly have different viewpoints on requiring exceptional care for the car. But, you bring up an interesting point about the blowers.

You have a lot more experience than I do with the car, but I have never, ever, heard any blower run when my car was plugged in and not charging. Perhaps our cars are different. Is your an SE or ES? Does it have the quick charge option?

An EVSE does not supply any AC power to the target car until it is negotiated through signalling. My EVSE has an indicator to show any time that the AC is being supplied to the car. After the initial charge cycle, I have never seen the indicator on even though the car is plugged in. I haven't stood around watching, but the indicator is in an obvious place, so I would see it every time that I walk by. In addition, since my ElectraVan tops off its charge every few days, I have been primed to watch for the i-MiEV to do the same. But, I have never seen it do so.

Perhaps some other readers of this chain will share their experiences.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[PV1]

In addition, since my ElectraVan tops off its charge every few days, I have been primed to watch for the i-MiEV to do the same. But, I have never seen it do so.

The i-MiEV won't do this. Once the i-MiEV is charged, it's charged. The self-discharge of lithium batteries is so low that the i-MiEV could sit for a long time without losing a bar, which is roughly 5% of the charge.

When it comes to storing the i-MiEV (or any lithium based production EV, except for Teslas), the manufacturer recommends leaving about half a charge in the battery and leave the car unplugged while stored. Teslas are different due to their thermal management system, so they have a storage mode that will hold the car at 40% while plugged in. The i-MiEV has a main contactor inside the battery pack that disengages when the car is turned off, so there is no external draw from the battery. The BMS boards are using a few milliamps each, but would take forever and a day to run the cells empty.

So, when it comes to leaving the car sit, park it and leave it unplugged, especially in the heat. Just as your ElectraVan gets left plugged in for the battery's health, the i-MiEV (and the LEAF especially) must not be left at a full charge for more than a day at high temperatures if you want the pack to survive more than a few years. It takes about 2-2.5 hours to fully charge from half on level 2 (240 volt). This isn't so much an early-adopter vs. mainstream issue, it's general care of the product. Using a laptop only on AC with the battery in it will cook the battery in a year or two, since the laptop keeps the battery fully charged (overcharged in my opinion). Just as the battery should either be removed or have the charge dropped to 60-80% in a laptop that lives plugged in, a stored EV with lithium batteries shouldn't be kept fully charged. Unfortunately, the i-MiEV doesn't have a storage mode, but it can sit a long time and not lose charge, so Mitsubishi simply tells the drivers to leave the car unplugged while stored.

If you don't hear a fan run for about 5 seconds when you plug the i-MiEV in, you must not have either quick charge, premium (SE only), or cold weather packages. The i-MiEV is probably the most idiot-proofed EV out there, but it can still be messed up.

 

[Malm]

Malm,

We certainly have different viewpoints on requiring exceptional care for the car. But, you bring up an interesting point about the blowers.

You have a lot more experience than I do with the car, but I have never, ever, heard any blower run when my car was plugged in and not charging. Perhaps our cars are different. Is your an SE or ES? Does it have the quick charge option?

An EVSE does not supply any AC power to the target car until it is negotiated through signalling. My EVSE has an indicator to show any time that the AC is being supplied to the car. After the initial charge cycle, I have never seen the indicator on even though the car is plugged in. I haven't stood around watching, but the indicator is in an obvious place, so I would see it every time that I walk by. In addition, since my ElectraVan tops off its charge every few days, I have been primed to watch for the i-MiEV to do the same. But, I have never seen it do so.

Perhaps some other readers of this chain will share their experiences.

Thanks,
Mike

I agree, I think when its charged, its charged. Have to unplug and plug it again. In Europe, I never saw an i-MiEV without fast charge and consequently no refrigerated pack (by air and only in a fast charge, unless you make some smart change). So, our cars are different, I think.

But I think, if the electricity in the house fails and then came back again, it will try to charge.

 

[Malm]

Great to see that PV1 thinks exactly like me.

"The i-MiEV is probably the most idiot-proofed EV out there, but it can still be messed up."

Well, I know how to be idiot and kill my battery in 15 days. But I decided for the other way and keep my car so cold as possible (and maybe more then possible). Somehow, I fill I'm being idiot the same.

 

[Don]

I am aware of the wisdom of leaving the lithium battery at a reduced state of charge if the car is going to sit unused for some time. But, how long? If I were to leave the car for a month, then OK, I'd leave it at 1/2 charge. But, 2 weeks? I think not.

I think it depends on your priorities . . . . and your definition of 'some time'

As others have mentioned, I'm most concerned about what's best for the battery pack because I hope to still be driving it well beyond the 10 year, 100K warranty. Like many others, I never charge to 100% unless I'm going to be driving he car shortly afterward - 'Shortly' as within a few hours. For me, leaving it sit fully charged for 'some time' would be a 24 hour period. If I'm not going to be driving it sooner than that, what's the benefit of fully charging it? I've found my lithium power tool batteries live much longer if I charge them immediately before use and I'm guessing since my car's battery is the same composition, it probably wouldn't appreciate sitting fully charged for a week so I never do that

Not to say anything you did harmed your battery in any way - If it took it 'a few cycles' before it would charge to the full 16 bars, I strongly suspect your battery was probably doomed from the start. IMO, it should have charged to 16 bars from day one if it was a normal, healthy battery pack

Don

 

[jumpjack]

I wouldn't keep my car plugged even for a day. And surely wouldn´t keep it with full charge for a day too. So, keeping it like that for two weeks, specially with hot temperatures, that is surely not good.

Keeping the car plugged is not the same as keeping the car unplugged. I don´t know if it charges something after a full charge keeping it plugged, what I know is that I notice the sound of ventilation time to time when it is plugged, no matter if it is charging or not.

Electronic circuitry in modern electric car is all but trivial; keeping a car "charging" for a week or a month can't damage the car in any way! Current does not keep flowing into the batteries! On the contrary, there's always some electric appliance active in the car, so keeping the car unplugged for weeks is known to eventually deplete the battery (just like conventional vehicles).

A depleted battery can get damaged; at the opposite side, an "always plugged" car will never overcharge the battery; instead, it provides features like remote A/C / heater turning on.

Citroen czero manual recommends to avoid depleting of 12V service battery, because this would prevent car from starting.

 

[jumpjack]

Like many others, I never charge to 100% unless I'm going to be driving he car shortly afterward

As far as I know, users/owners have no "access" to 0% SoC and 100% SoC in modern electric cars: it's hidden by the onboard firmware, e.g. if battery has 24 kWh, you see just 21 kWh available, with margins below and above: so you think you are at 100% SoC but you are at 90%; this allows both batery protection and hiding of capacity fade in years: maybe within 10 years you'll see 100%... and it will actually be 100% of availble capacity.

But these are only guesses from forums users around the world, I think real tech specs are kept secret by companies.

Maybe OBD-II devices connected to cars diagnostic bus can see real battery capacity and SoC?!?

 

[JoeS]

I went on vacation in July. I left the car plugged in as usual, and when I returned after 2 weeks, the charge was at 9/16 bars. I drove it a few cycles, but the charge never came back up more than 9/16...

Here's a Phoenix temperature chart for July (note 24 July hit 47degC (117degF)): http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/phoenix-az/85004/july-weather/346935

Mike, you never did say if your garage was airconditioned or not. Whereas leaving the car plugged in does not mean that it continues charging (it does not), but it does mean you had left it at 100%SoC.

As an experienced EVer with FLA (flooded lead-acid) batteries, you've come to understand that FLAs are happiest sitting at 100% SoC and limiting their depth of discharge to maybe 30% prolongs their life enormously. In contrast, from all I've read, Lithiums of just about any chemistry prefer to operate around the 50% SoC point, but can certainly tolerate a much wider operating range than lead-acid without significant degradation.

And, charging it before I use it? No, I don't think so. We are not early adopters, this car must be mainstream, or it can't compete. At least, that's my opinion.

On the contrary, we have bought the first production run of the second BEV introduced in the US, and I do consider us early adopters who paid a premium price for the vehicle. In those (these?) early days both the manufacturers and consumers have a lot to learn about this emerging (in mass production) technology, Inasmuch as I own (and don't lease) my i-MiEV, I tend to give the manufacturer and this vehicle a break and not act as a beta-tester. I would like to see them succeed and produce more BEVs. At least that's my opinion

 

[mradtke]

JoeS,

I leave my i-MiEV outside in the sun, just like I do my other cars.

I know the limitations of my ElectraVan. It too was a commercially sold vehicle and the owner's manual is quite specific on its care. I am not transferring my ElectraVan experience and expectations to the i-MiEV.

Just like with the ElectraVan, I read the i-MiEV owner's manual. I have not abused the car by that standard. I also don't find anywhere stated that I am a beta tester for Mitsubishi. In other words, I am treating the car just as I would a Tesla, a Nissan Leaf, or any other main stream electric car.

I don't understand your leasing comment. I own my car which is all the more reason to expect it to perform as advertised.

If my expectations are unrealistic, I feel that's Mitsubishi's fault, not mine.

Mike

 

[JoeS]

All designs are compromises, with Mitsubishi's engineers trying to extend battery life by derating each cell's peak charge voltage point, keeping peak current to around 150A, and saving the bottom end by gracefully engaging turtle before some cells get murdered. The analogy I use is with an ICE - even though the red line may be readily achieved, why would you want to do that repeatedly? By the same token, how often do we need to make that 70-mile trip which would necessitate fully charging the battery pack? Since we now know that heat and a full charge for an extended period of time are not healthy for the battery pack, why do it?

 

[mradtke]

JoeS,

I see that you have other EV experience. If some of that is experience is from doing you own conversions, I caution you not to project those experiences onto the Mitsubishi product. Unless you actually know what the Mitsubishi engineers did in coming up with their design, please don't guess. Otherwise just like with any other product, read the manual and act accordingly.

I have used the car in the way that it was advertised to be used. I have no evidence that driving the car within the constraints presented in the owner's manual caused my pack to expire. Mitsubishi apologized for the failure and did not make any suggestions about changing my driving habits. Could it simply have been a defective pack?

Mike

 

[DonDakin]

Hi mike,

I just read this whole thread and it seems to me like you want to treat the car just like any other car without special treatment because of your high temps.

While I don't personally believe that is best for the battery. I respect that your expectations are that the car should operate as advertised.

I hope you keep your imiev a long time and keep us up to date with how it fairs the summers in your area without any special care.

It sounds to me like your pack did have some cells fail. Maybe getting setup with canion will give you some visibility into the pack if you are interested in that.

Let us know how things go.

Don.....