my Miev will not charge

[redcane]

Have you looked at the 5 or 6 different threads on it in this forum.
Your experience with the dealer sounds a lot like electronpushers
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=4067
Are you in the same state?

I'd be very reluctant to try the ECU without something firmer.

I've been trawling through this forum. I've read enough to know it's possible opening up a few parts and looking for scorch marks might save me from buying a new part. I hadn't read electronpushers thread yet. I'm in northern NSW.

100% agreed I'd like some more confidence of which part has failed before replacement. I feel like that path could easily be like flushing $1400 down the drain, only to spend $4000 to replace the charger.

Are you a member of the Australian Electrical Vehicle Association? There is a bit of discussion on the AEVA forum too.
<span>One member in Brisbane has just bought a wrecked i-MiEV. He is going to use all the parts to convert a Cortina, but might be willing to let you try swapping some bits for troubleshooting. I guess you are not likely to be nearby if you are 300km from a <a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/?field-keywords=electric%20vehicle%20charger&tag=myelecarfor-20" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">charger</a>.</span>

Yes I'm a member. I started reading this forum first however. I'm about 8 hours drive from Brisbane though it might be worth thinking about borrowing parts.

<span>A few people are trying to pull the <a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/?field-keywords=electric%20vehicle%20charger&tag=myelecarfor-20" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">charger</a>s apart and replace components but I don't know if any have succeeded.</span>
<span>jray3 on this forum and at least one other have succeeded with second hand <a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/?field-keywords=electric%20vehicle%20charger&tag=myelecarfor-20" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">charger</a>s. Their is an imiev being parted out on ebay in the uk at the moment, though I didn't see the charger listed, and they want 1500gbp for the motor ecu, but might be worth looking into.</span>
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/m.html?_ssn=davies.salvage.ltd&_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=miev&_ipg=200&rt=nc

From what I read skylogger replaced a resistor and two capacitors and revived a charger. He had a spare car to work with, but also put in a lot of effort, with a lot of help from kiev and coulomb from what I've read.
That link is highly appreciated.

<span>You could also try asking Mitsubishi for a 'goodwill' warranty repair. That is what they say they are doing for us. Haven't said exactly why they approved it, but we had 2 factors in our favour - that the <a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/?field-keywords=electric%20vehicle%20charger&tag=myelecarfor-20" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">charger</a> was only 2 years old, having been replaced in a recall, and that we have an extended warranty certificate from the dealer that sold it.</span>

I have neither of those things. However rather than being assertive with the local dealer, who is subject to the policies of Mitsubishi Australia, maybe I should just contact Mistubishi Australia and plead my case? It sounds like you had a good experience with that?

P0A09 [DC/DC Converter error (1)] troubleshooting is found here:

http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/i-miev/online/Service_Manual/2012/54/html/M154920520002300ENG.HTM

i'm always leary of shops that just want to throw parts at a problem hoping to fix it--how is it that the cost of the part has any bearing on the repair if they don't know the root cause? Shame on them, this is the troubleshooting flow chart that they should be using.

It didn't sound right to me at first either. Having followed the troubleshooting process in the service manual, (depending how other stuff checks out) it gets to Step 8 "Replace the on board charger/DC-DC converter" then if that doesn't work it goes to Step 9 "Replace the EV-ECU.". So this seems to reflect what the dealer told me - they are just following Mitsubishi's process. However they have suggested replacing the EV-ECU first as it's a cheaper part...

Really it seems like if they had a spare charger or ev ecu they'd just swap it as a test. The diagnostic process seems entirely based on the idea that you'd have several i-mievs at the dealer, and plenty of spare parts on hand. They don't have any documented process for testing the parts aside from putting them in another car. I don't know if there is any way without specialised equipment to test the parts in isolation?

 

[kiev]

Yes but did they actually do all the wiring and connector checks for steps 1-8 ? There is a lot more that can be done to measure what is happening if you are willing to remove the cover screws, take some photos and look for puffy capacitors or blown parts, etc. That is not on the OEM list of things to check, but if you don't have any warranty left, then you have nothing to lose by investigating this on your own.

If the car runs and drives, then the EV-ECU is likely okay, since that is the main controller for the car.

If it doesn't charge, or doesn't make 12V to recharge the aux battery, then that is a function of the DC/DC converter located in the bottom plenum of the charger box. In either case more diagnostics and troubleshooting is needed before throwing expensive parts in an attempt to shotgun it.

What if they didn't actually check the relays and wiring harnesses and connections as per the troubleshooting guide--then you buy an EV-ECU and it doesn't fix it, then a new charger, and it still doesn't work. Well then they will bail out on you and leave you high and dry and broke with a car full on new electronics.

i have seen used EV-ECU on ebay, but they require the dealer to program in the VIN. Chargers do not require VIN.

There are several fuses within the charger and DC/DC converter and the MCU. Those are not covered in the dealer troubleshooting, but those should be inspected to verify that they are good.

 

[mikedufty]

I have neither of those things. However rather than being assertive with the local dealer, who is subject to the policies of Mitsubishi Australia, maybe I should just contact Mistubishi Australia and plead my case? It sounds like you had a good experience with that?

As I understand it the dealer put in the goodwill request to Mitsubishi Australia, who then approved it. I imagine you could request the dealer to put in a request, even if they don't think it will be successful, then talk to Mitsubishi Australia about whether they approve it. I have no idea how likely that is to succeed, but am pretty sure it will involve waiting for weeks.

I agree it would be much easier if they had parts in the country, and staff with good knowledge of the vehicles. Hazard of being an early adopter. We don't even have an authorised EV service centre in WA. The current delay for us is waiting weeks for a charger to be shipped from Japan. With the number of failures it seems like it would be a good idea for them to have a couple in stock in the country, but I guess that depends on anyone being willing to pay for them.

 

[redcane]

Yes but did they actually do all the wiring and connector checks for steps 1-8 ?

They have given me a copy of the steps with their notes on results. I haven't looked at it in detail as yet, but it seems well documented enough that I trust they've done it. I'll still verify what I can before it goes back to them.

There is a lot more that can be done to measure what is happening if you are willing to remove the cover screws, take some photos and look for puffy capacitors or blown parts, etc. That is not on the OEM list of things to check, but if you don't have any warranty left, then you have nothing to lose by investigating this on your own.
[...]
There are several fuses within the charger and DC/DC converter and the MCU. Those are not covered in the dealer troubleshooting, but those should be inspected to verify that they are good.

Yes, I'll look for anything obvious. Things on my list are the 20A 400V resistor, and the "doghouse" caps. I don't know if there is a good checklist anywhere - I'll have a look across the forums and maybe put one together?

If the car runs and drives, then the EV-ECU is likely okay, since that is the main controller for the car.

If it doesn't charge, or doesn't make 12V to recharge the aux battery, then that is a function of the DC/DC converter located in the bottom plenum of the charger box. In either case more diagnostics and troubleshooting is needed before throwing expensive parts in an attempt to shotgun it.
What if they didn't actually check the relays and wiring harnesses and connections as per the troubleshooting guide--then you buy an EV-ECU and it doesn't fix it, then a new charger, and it still doesn't work. Well then they will bail out on you and leave you high and dry and broke with a car full on new electronics.
i have seen used EV-ECU on ebay, but they require the dealer to program in the VIN. Chargers do not require VIN.

Yes, I can't see how it is the EV-ECU. Their only logic behind replacing this first is that it is cheaper. I suppose I can ask them to replace the charger first, and accept that if that doesn't fix it they may need to replace the EV-ECU.

It is definitely worth double checking the relays, harnesses and connections before spending any additional money. My assessment is the dealer has been pretty honest with me that it's just a policy they have to follow from head office, and acknowledges that it's not an ideal situation. They don't do any troubleshooting or have any test methods beyond reading the codes and checking the connections. It's a shame they don't refurbish the old parts.

I might ask the dealer if they can program the VIN if I supply the EV-ECU, but I've also read these are write once, and can't be changed.

I don't see our dealer putting in a goodwill request, they seem quite happy to just follow the process. Will are what eventuates after we open up the charger.

 

[coulomb]

It's a shame they don't refurbish the old parts.

Indeed. I guess it's a legacy of the ICE procedures; they are made in sufficient quantities that the parts are at least cheap to make (I didn't say cheap to sell), and besides ICE customers are used to forking over money regularly for oil changes and the like.

I might ask the dealer if they can program the VIN if I supply the EV-ECU, but I've also read these are write once, and can't be changed.

I've seen a YouTube video of someone changing the VIN on a car stereo by swapping a programmed surface mount chip (way smaller than a fingernail) with a hot air gun. I think he replaced it with a blank chip, and it was bleeding obvious where the VIN was supposed to go, and he did it with a hex editor or similar. He made it look really easy (if you have the hot air gun, and a special reader/programmer, and are familiar with hex editing, and your laptop can read SD(?) cards). But of course, Mitsubishi may well not have used a separate chip. And of course, you need to know what chip it is, and there may be other vital information in there (not so serious for a car stereo).

So I'm saying that if it's true that it's write-once, that's not necessarily a complete show-stopper. But likely very, very close.

For what it's worth (not much), it's here. And spoiler: the guy never got to test it.

here.

 

[redcane]

So I'm saying that if it's true that it's write-once, that's not necessarily a complete show-stopper. But likely very, very close.

To me it's more indicative of a principle of exercising power over your customers. Even in the case the dealer can rewrite it, you are still at their mercy to do so. Acting as some kind of a "gatekeeper" seems to only benefit the manufacturer and inconvenience the consumer. It's treating your customers with contempt, and for very marginal benefit.

 

[electronpusher]

i have seen used EV-ECU on ebay, but they require the dealer to program in the VIN. Chargers do not require VIN..

if i understand correctly, buying a second hand converter somewhere, and swap it in, should fix the problem? i was told by the dealer that doing that wouldnt work as the converter is VIN locked, though after my experience so far, the dealer appears to be incorrect.

 

[redcane]

MikeDufty, Have you had any progress getting the replacement part shipped in?

Having confirmed our charger unit is not actually that old, I'm going to follow this up a bit further with the dealer and Mitsubishi Australia. Failing that I intend to lodge a complaint with NSW Fair Trading.

Whilst I already thought it was an expensive replacement when I thought the original charger had lasted 8 years, I think it's unacceptable for it to have only actually lasted 18 months. I'd certainly want a longer warranty than that on a $4000 part.

It also seems quite clear to me these units are not of an acceptable quality with the failure rates we are seeing, and I think the Australian Consumer Law might be on our side here.

 

[mikedufty]

My replacement charger (goodwill warranty) arrived in Perth last monday. The dealer have fitted everything in the car, but say they are having problems with the software still giving errors. I hope it is not too difficult to sort out. They say they are trying to get hold of a paper copy of the manual.

 

[redcane]

Replaced the burnt out capacitors, put in a temporary fuse. Reassembled and put OBCi in car. Atilly have error lights.

I assume something hasn't been put together properly as others have reported the error lights gone as soon as everything was back together. The alternative theory was that the error codes would need clearing before the imiev would activate the charger.

 

[kiev]

In Skylogger's first repair there was also a displaced resistor on the bottom board that prevented operation of the OBC. Maybe he could help you look if yall are nearby in WA. (is anything nearby in WA?)

The trouble codes might provide a clue if you have a way to extract those, e.g. MUT readout by dealer or using a clone, i909, etc.

 

[redcane]

I checked that specific resistor and I've had a good look for any other visually apparent problems. I guess I'll recheck everything today.

Unfortunately I'm on the east coast, WA is virtually a different country.

The trouble codes didn't seem very specific, and the dealer charged $395 for them last time. I might have to get an MUT clone, standard OBD readers don't seem to work very well on the imiev.

 

[mikedufty]

Mine is also not working with errors despite the whole charger being replaced by a Mitsubishi dealer. If they manage to fix it I will try to find out what the problem was and post here.

 

[redcane]

New information on my imiev. Now it won't go into "ready" mode.

We reassembled everything after replacing snubber caps in the OBC. Put in temporary fuse. No charging. Decided to sleep on it.

This morning after checking things and trying to start the car realised we had disconnected the service plug in the battery pack. Replaced the service plug, and trying to start we heard contactors on the first attempt but didn't reach "ready". Tried locking and unlocking to make sure the security system was disarmed. Subsequent attempts the contactor dance had stopped. Tried putting extra charge in the auxiliary battery. We get a " ding ding ding " chime for about 10 seconds but no ready. From memory we used to get a " ding ding ding" chime briefly before a short sharp "ding-ding" when the ready light came on.

Have checked over all fuses, and related relays and all seem good.

I think our next step is reading or clearing trouble codes with an i909. I wonder if we've raised an error code due to the service fuse being initially unplugged that needs to be cleared, or if we've created another fault.

Mike, have they taken the inverter cover off and checked the charger/obc 450V 20A fuse? It seems like it blows in 90% of cases from my reading. If you find another issue it would be most interesting.

 

[redcane]

Just a note, from what I've seen of the service manual, there is no mention of the fuse - the troubleshooting flow chart suggests replacement of the EV-ECU and charger/DC-DC after checking the wiring harnesses and relays. It seems like quite an oversight in the troubleshooting process.

 

[coulomb]

Now it won't go into "ready" mode.
We reassembled everything after replacing snubber caps in the OBC. Put in temporary fuse. No charging. Decided to sleep on it.

Is the temporary fuse easy to remove? I'd pull the service connector and wait 10 minutes before doing this. If so, does it now go to ready?

In other words, is it the OBC that is stopping ready, or is something else stopping it?

from what I've seen of the service manual, there is no mention of the fuse - ... It seems like quite an oversight in the troubleshooting process.

Yes, quite the elephant in the room! [ Edit: if it was true. ]

 

[kiev]

Just a note, from what I've seen of the service manual, there is no mention of the fuse - the troubleshooting flow chart suggests replacement of the EV-ECU and charger/DC-DC after checking the wiring harnesses and relays. It seems like quite an oversight in the troubleshooting process.

i think all the information is available, but here is a detailed version:

There is a listing of troubleshooting steps in post #2 of the OBC Troubleshooting thread that contain Step #2 lists the OBC codes ["P" codes] that will be stored in the EV-ECU, and Step #3 lists the internal code numbers [number codes] that will be stored in the OBC. All this is from the workshop manual.

Internal OBC Code number 02 leads to a troubleshooting guide that includes checking the 20A fuse in the MCU. The procedure for checking/replacing the fuse is included in the MCU section of the manual.

Workshop Manual MCU fuse links:

OBC Code 02 troubleshooting

How to access and replace the MCU fuse

HTH

 

[redcane]

Is the temporary fuse easy to remove? I'd pull the service connector and wait 10 minutes before doing this. If so, does it now go to ready?

In other words, is it the OBC that is stopping ready, or is something else stopping it?

We waitied two weeks with the service plug disconnected last time

The temporary fuse still has continuity, in fact without the contactors closing it hasn't even seen voltage.
We tried disconnecting the OBC comms connector (E-02?), however the car still wouldn't go into ready.
I guess with the fuse open circuit it could eliminate a ground fault, and it is possible we introduced one in working in the charger.

Internal OBC Code number 02 leads to a troubleshooting guide that includes checking the 20A fuse in the MCU.

You certainly know your way around the service manual!
Interesting - however our original fault codes led the dealer to want to replace the charger first. I'd have to review if we had an internal OBC code 02 - the print out is with the car.

We also noticed for the P0A09 the high voltage level check is done via the MUT-III, which presumably uses the BMS taps, and doesn't rely on the contactors operation.

 

[kiev]

Obviously the car won't go to READY with the service plug disconnected.

Coulomb wanted you to remove the MCU fuse and see if the car would start with the OBC/DC converter power connection to the pack removed, i.e. the temporary fuse removed. As a safety concern, there will be HV on the big capacitor inside the MCU connected to the lines that the fuse is attached. That HV is supposed to bleed off over about 3 minutes, so check the voltage on the HV at the MCU terminals before touching the fuse to remove it, then replace the service plug if it has been disconnected. That was the test, not to remove the E-03 connector, just the fuse.

Since you tried to start with the service plug disconnected, then there has likely been a DTC code thrown that may resolve on it's own, or may need clearing by external means. Sometimes it seems that codes may clear after the Aux battery has been disconnected for a couple of hours, e.g. loosen and remove the negative terminal on the Aux. Also there is a position switch inside the service plug housing that sends a signal to the EV-ECU, and that must be working properly or P0A0A gets set. Check the FSM for whether or not a MUT clear is needed if the service plug gets disconnected and starting is attempted. Also with the E-03 connector open then there has likely been additional DTCs thrown. You can't be sloppy when working with HV and software-controlled systems and expect happy results, usually The Bad Thing™ happens.

 

[redcane]

Once realising the service plug was still disconnected, we were hoping reconnecting it would allow the car to go ready. Obviously we didn't expect it to function with the service plug disconnected. My concern was subsequent to replacing there would be a non self clearing DTC set, but I'm not sure if anyone else has tested this theory. I have no way to know if this is the case until I get my hands on an i909, which I have ordered. We tried disconnecting the 12V battery for 10 minutes, but it sounds like this isn't long enough?

Coulombs suggestion to remove the fuse is a good one - but unfortunately not one I thought to try at the time. The car is not located at my house, it's located at a friends house so there are some delays in attempting these things. (On the flip side of this, he has experience working on EVs and HVDC having built one of his own, which is handy).

We did trace the wiring for the Service Plug position switch to a relay adjacent to the EV-ECU, but we ran out of time to find a good test for it's function in the FSM. I think I will need to print out large sections of the service manual.