Lithium Fire at EVTV and Boeing 787 Dreamliner

[Phximiev]

It is fortunate that he was there:

http://evtv.me/2015/11/a-dark-and-sunny-sunday/

 

[Phximiev]

Our GS YUASA batteries: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/01/ntsb-boeing-787-dreamliner-fire-boston-japan-lithium-battery/19735719/

2014 batteries?

Has anyone on the list driven a nail into one of our batteries? Or heated it as the article suggests?

 

[wmcbrine]

Has anyone on the list driven a nail into one of our batteries? Or heated it as the article suggests?

Uh, why would we do that?

 

[mdbuilder]

Not one of 'our batteries', but I've poked a nail into a lipo hobby battery. Very effective way to light them on fire :lol:

The higher the SOC the more impressive the flame. Poking the edge rather than the flat of the pouch cell is much more likely to set it off. No need for deep penetration or leaving the nail in, it is the act of mechanically damaging it rather than the nail that initiates the thermal cascade.

Edge damage generally results in total pack loss, one cell flames and it moves through the pack until all have been destroyed. poking the flat side may or may not stop at 1 cell, might pick up another and then stop also.

 

[Phximiev]

Has anyone on the list driven a nail into one of our batteries? Or heated it as the article suggests?

Uh, why would we do that?

I pose the question because of the GS YUASA article about the 2013 fire. If those batteries catch on fire, then perhaps ours may also?

:idea: :!: :idea:

 

[Phximiev]

Wonder if Ben Nelson has any batteries left from his purple i-Miev that he could test?

Or anyone else that has access to a wrecked i-Miev with batteries?

 

[JoeS]

Has anyone on the list driven a nail into one of our batteries? Or heated it as the article suggests?

Uh, why would we do that?

+1

I changed the title of this thread to clarify that this is not an i-MiEV issue.

 

[wmcbrine]

I pose the question because of the GS YUASA article about the 2013 fire. If those batteries catch on fire, then perhaps ours may also?

Yeah, I got that; I'm just not getting why you personally want to test this. It's kind of like asking "Anyone here done any crash testing on the i-MiEV?"

 

[mdbuilder]

Has anyone on the list driven a nail into one of our batteries? Or heated it as the article suggests?

Uh, why would we do that?

I pose the question because of the GS YUASA article about the 2013 fire. If those batteries catch on fire, then perhaps ours may also?

:idea: :!: :idea:

As far as I know, ANY lithium battery can erupt if physically damaged OR Overcharged except for the A123 / Lithium Phosphate type cells. The A123's are pretty forgiving of physical assault. The amount of energy stored in these things is awesome.

 

[JoeS]

...The amount of energy stored in these things is awesome.

um, what about the energy in a gallon of gasoline, and the >150,000 ICE vehicle fires per year in the US? Doesn't the inflammatory (pun intended) media especially pounce on every BEV fire? The least of my worries when driving an i-MiEV.

 

[mdbuilder]

Just conveying facts.

 

[phb10186]

...The amount of energy stored in these things is awesome.

um, what about the energy in a gallon of gasoline, and the >150,000 ICE vehicle fires per year in the US? Doesn't the inflammatory (pun intended) media especially pounce on every BEV fire? The least of my worries when driving an i-MiEV.

Is there really that may vehicle fires in the US... that's a lot. About 400 a day.

I suppose the only relief you could get if your car caught fire is that on average it happened to someone else within 4 minutes.

 

[Don]

Ford had problems years ago with a cruise control switch which could burn down your car (and your house) even hours or days after the car/truck was last driven. I remember the one that burned down the house and killed a woman inside when it came out in the news. Took only a minute or two to find the CNN article on it

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/16/ford.vehicles/

The article mentions there are 100,000 non-collision related car fires each year . . . . and you *know* there are hundreds of thousands more which happen related to vehicle crashes and accidents

Don

 

[Phximiev]

I pose the question because of the GS YUASA article about the 2013 fire. If those batteries catch on fire, then perhaps ours may also?

Yeah, I got that; I'm just not getting why you personally want to test this. It's kind of like asking "Anyone here done any crash testing on the i-MiEV?"

Well, the battery issue is relatively recent, our batteries are theorically older, and it wouldn't surprise me, given Mitsu's recent admissions, if Mitsu or GS had 'overlooked' some of the testing. I'd just like to know.

As far as 'crash testing' the i-Miev, I've already done that in part; there's a thread on that issue somewhere on this site. It's not something I'd like to repeat.

 

[PV1]

My theory has been that the older packs that suffered some kind of failure were the result of the same bad process that affected the 787. Thankfully, none so far have done anything more serious than slowly losing charge.

 

[phb10186]

Ford had problems years ago with a cruise control switch which could burn down your car (and your house) even hours or days after the car/truck was last driven. I remember the one that burned down the house and killed a woman inside when it came out in the news. Took only a minute or two to find the CNN article on it

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/16/ford.vehicles/

The article mentions there are 100,000 non-collision related car fires each year . . . . and you *know* there are hundreds of thousands more which happen related to vehicle crashes and accidents

Don

Hmm - I could play devils advocate here. You could well be right, but I see very few cars burned out after a crash. I bet there are a lot of older, poorly maintained cars that suffer general electrical faults due to bad earth connections, rotten fuel lines - and there are probably loads of workmen that leave tools/ hot stuff/ propane and butane bottles not fully off etc. Oh, and then there are smokers flicking a cigarette out the window which manages to end up in the car and starting a fire.

I have only ever seen about 2 car fires in my entire life, and never seen one after a crash. Thats just my anecdote - I can quite figures, and I haven't done any research.

 

[Don]

True, fuel tanks are much safer today than in the past and it takes a pretty unusual accident to rupture the tank and start a fire

Again, we can probably thank Ford for that - They learned a tough lesson the hard way about the importance of making safer fuel tanks

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a6700/top-automotive-engineering-failures-ford-pinto-fuel-tanks/

I especially like the lead-in to the article above: "Unless you drive an electric vehicle, on a day-to-day basis there's a container filled with a highly volatile liquid stashed away somewhere in your car." - How true!

Don

 

[Benjamin Nead]

The lithium battery safety topic can be a contentious one. Detractors of electric cars get overly excited about it, while also conveniently forgetting that gasoline car fires are all too common. The news media will also forget that hundreds of thousands of petroleum vehicles burn up each year in the US when reporting sensationally on that rather rare EV battery fire.

All this said, current generation lithium batteries are not 100% safe and certain formulas will violently combust under catastrophic failure. While other formulas won't go up in flames under those same circumstances (LiFePO4 and Lithium Titanate are notably stable in this regard,) they WILL vent toxic fumes and generally make a helluva mess. This video showing LiFePO4 cells being destroyed under an number of controlled scenarios is rather telling . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpQmc2IUobs

The good news is that OEM EVs (including our beloved i-MiEVs) are designed with numerous safety features that protect the main pack from breaching in a major traffic accident and cut the electricity under such circumstances to avoid shorting.

What we have to look forward to in the future is solid electrolyte cells - or so-called "solid state" batteries - that are not only going to be far safer if they are physically or electrically compromised, they'll be lighter in weight and capable of operating at greater temperature extreme.

Below is a link to a lecture conducted at Stanford University by Dr. Ann Marie Sastry, CEO of Sakti3. It's a fairly technical presentation that gets off to a slow start, but it's worth watching through all the way. To cut to the chase, though, advance it to 46:32 to witness a solid state cell being snapped in half and another one being dunked into water (don't try either with the battery you have in today's cell phones!) and noting how well they do . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3TNRfS-8q8

Dr. Satsry recently sold her company's technology to Dyson. Expect to see an upscale vacuum cleaner sometime in the not-to-distance future with solid state battery technology and, sometime down the road, in a future EV.

 

[phb10186]

The lithium battery safety topic can be a contentious one. Detractors of electric cars get overly excited about it, while also conveniently forgetting that gasoline car fires are all too common. The news media will also forget that hundreds of thousands of petroleum vehicles burn up each year in the US when reporting sensationally on that rather rare EV battery fire.

All this said, current generation lithium batteries are not 100% safe and certain formulas will violently combust under catastrophic failure. While other formulas won't go up in flames under those same circumstances (LiFePO4 and Lithium Titanate are notably stable in this regard,) they WILL vent toxic fumes and generally make a helluva mess. This video showing LiFePO4 cells being destroyed under an number of controlled scenarios is rather telling . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpQmc2IUobs

The good news is that OEM EVs (including our beloved i-MiEVs) are designed with numerous safety features that protect the main pack from breaching in a major traffic accident and cut the electricity under such circumstances to avoid shorting.

What we have to look forward to in the future is solid electrolyte cells - or so-called "solid state" batteries - that are not only going to be far safer if they are physically or electrically compromised, they'll be lighter in weight and capable of operating at greater temperature extreme.

Below is a link to a lecture conducted at Stanford University by Dr. Ann Marie Sastry, CEO of Sakti3. It's a fairly technical presentation that gets off to a slow start, but it's worth watching through all the way. To cut to the chase, though, advance it to 46:32 to witness a solid state cell being snapped in half and another one being dunked into water (don't try either with the battery you have in today's cell phones!) and noting how well they do . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3TNRfS-8q8

Dr. Satsry recently sold her company's technology to Dyson. Expect to see an upscale vacuum cleaner sometime in the not-to-distance future with solid state battery technology and, sometime down the road, in a future EV.

Very interesting. That rat Dyson is buying up everything he is now one of the UK's largest land owners. All this from a yellow plastic ball mounted on a grey plastic frame. Wish I'd have thought of that.

 

[Phximiev]

I'd still like someone to drive a nail through one, just to know.