Future of Public EV Charging

[ChrisEV]

Somewhat related but where will public EV charging be in the next 3 years?

It’s about $2/hour for L2 and around $15 for L3 here(more in winter due to slow charging). Not worth it for the MIEV unless you’re desperate. I’m even hearing that some of the L3 50kW stations are being throttled to 25-30, although I wonder if it’s just the Canadian winter slowing the charge.

As EV cars get more popular are these ridiculous prices going to go up even more? I imagine free public charging will slowly disappear.

Gas stations will probably slowly offer EV charging in addition to fuel, I’ve seen a few here already.

 

[JoeS]

Somewhat related but where will public EV charging be in the next 3 years?

It’s about $2/hour for L2 and around $15 for L3 here(more in winter due to slow charging). Not worth it for the MIEV unless you’re desperate. I’m even hearing that some of the L3 50kW stations are being throttled to 25-30, although I wonder if it’s just the Canadian winter slowing the charge.

As EV cars get more popular are these ridiculous prices going to go up even more? I imagine free public charging will slowly disappear.

Gas stations will probably slowly offer EV charging in addition to fuel, I’ve seen a few here already.

ChrisEV, this was such an appropriate question that I thought I'd make it a separate topic. Here are a few of my thoughts -

Interesting dilemma. Need to separate DCQC from public L2, and networked L2 from stand-alone L2.

Unsubsidized, a back-of-the-envelope calculation shows that a DCQC charging station is not a good financial investment. nrg was supposedly losing money on EVgo and finally broke it off and it's now operated as a stand-alone entity. User displeasure with EVgo's exorbitant (to the user) price structure is evident, for example:
http://www.mychevybolt.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5834
My comment: I avoid EVgo whenever possible, but appreciate their presence for the few times I really need to charge. Much more discussion needed.

Allied to the above, for its new cars (once the annual free usage is used up) Tesla's costs for supercharging are, for example, $0.20/kWh in California and $0.12/kWh in Oregon.
https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging
My comment: love my old Tesla S grandfathered in with free supercharging - it's a terrific uninhibitor to taking long trips at the drop of a hat.

Networked L2 (e.g., ChargePoint). Examples are shopping centers which subsidize the installation and pay for the monthly energy and connectivity costs. I don't know how maintenance costs are handled. Costs are set by the facility and vary from free to either $/kWhr or $/hour (usually in states where charging by the kWhr is still illegal).
My comment: I have found most of these costs reasonable.

Not-networked L2, usually put in and paid for by local establishments and usually at no cost to the user. I've seen quite a few at hotels/motels in our travels across the country.
My comment: free is nice, but subject to abuse. In particular, I resent PHEVs hogging such spots in metropolitan areas - has happened all-too-often when I needed to charge my i-MiEV. I feel that a nominal fee is appropriate in most public-use cases, whereas it's a nice freebie for patrons of a hotel or restaurant - let's face it, those establishments will not even notice a change in their electric bill resulting from such charging stations.

With the evolution to large-capacity battery packs, I think that local charging will primarily serve multi-unit dwellers who have no other alternatives; otherwise, the convenience and low cost of charging a home makes it unnecessary to charge in town.

Long distance is another issue. As I write this I've been doing what-if scenarios with my brother-in-law in Oregon who just bought a BoltEV and wants to drive down to California and visit family. The slow charging rate (often well under 25kW) and high charging cost of presently-installed SAE/CCS DCQC is so inferior to Tesla's existing supercharging network that it just wants to make one cry. Until that world evolves to > 100kW charging rates, those cars will be considered good intermediate-distance candidates but not ICE (or Tesla) competition for long trips.

 

[jray3]

Indeed, the high NRG fees have made them my last resort. Seattle City Light is going to deploy a number of DCFC to fill the 'donut hole' left in 2012 by the Blink bankruptcy and never fixed. However, they announced that pricing would be a fixed per-session fee in the neighborhood of $11! In response, Seattle EV Association passed the following resolution in November, and we are now told that the pricing plan is 'a work in process' and likely to change. The Outlander PHEV having DCFC for only a 12 kWh battery only exacerbates this situation. I asked the utility if they wanted to be known for charging the same price to deliver 12 kWh as for 100 kWh, and that the high end scenario (Tesla P100) is only going to grow.

SEATTLE Electric Vehicle Association finds that fixed price DC Fast Charging sessions are both inequitable and counterproductive to the goal of providing a reliable fast charging infrastructure, inasmuch as fixed price sessions make no allowance for the wide disparities in both battery size and the state of charge that customers arrive with. Fixed price fast charging sessions also incentivize users to remain connected for the maximum time to achieve a full charge, which creates wait times for other users, decreases the number of customers served, and reduces the total miles of charging delivered per station. Therefore, SEVA calls upon Seattle City Light to amend their announced policy and implement a time -based fee structure. In DC Fast Charging, the billing scheme must encourage Fast Charging, as time spent charging is the most valuable component of a Fast Charging session.

 

[Don]

It’s about $2/hour for L2 and around $15 for L3 here(more in winter due to slow charging). Not worth it for the MIEV unless you’re desperate

As someone who has never paid a nickel to recharge anywhere in the nearly 6 years we've been EV driving, my opinion may not mean much :lol:

I think for the foreseeable future, it's going to be most practical to buy a car which will do what you need it to do recharging at home 95% of the time. If your daily commute is more than the iMiEV can do and you can't recharge for a reasonable fee at work, you probably need a car with a longer range. You'll always have the free L2 stations associated with a business which wants to lure you as a customer but if you're not shopping for at least an hour or two, L2 charging isn't that practical

I doubt DCQC is ever going to get to be 'reasonably' priced - The equipment is just too expensive and I'm sure their power bills reflect some huge 'surge' charges - They have to make a profit and with vandalism and maintenance, they'll never make a profit charging only 4X or 5X what the electricity costs. To my mind, DCQC will always be either 'emergency' or I'm taking a long trip and to heck with what it costs

Tesla is a whole 'nother matter though - If I wanted to drive long distances in an EV (and it would be nice) then buying a used Model S which is grandfathered to the Supercharger network like Joe did would be the only way to go, IMO. There are other cars which can go 250 or 300 miles, but if you're regularly traveling long distances and DCQC is costing you way more than what gasoline would, it just doesn't seem all that practical to me - I love our EV's, and wish I could drive them everywhere, but paying $1 for $.10 worth of electricity just rubs me the wrong way. At ten cents per KWH, an iMiEV holds about $1.50 worth and paying $15 to get an 80% recharge is just . . . . ridiculous

Don

 

[ChrisEV]

Thanks for making the thread Joe!

EVgo sounds like Koben Systems/KSI here in Ontario, Canada. They got a nice government contract to put up chargers all over and there’s nothing but problems. Their Facebook page is full of angry comments. 24kW L3 chargers(advertised as 50kW), expensive and frequently not working. Sadly they’re the most common.

ChargePoint and other companies are pretty fair here. The mall near me has free charging for the first 2 hours and then $2/hour after that. I think that’s a fair setup but I don’t see it too much.

The free ones around the city are frequently abused. IKEA has free L2 and L3 charging and the other day I saw a guy napping in his Model X while charging. Who knows how long he was there.

Looking at PlugShare I think some fights will break out at some point.

I love my MIEV. I bought it solely for my 84km commute and it does that well although in the cold winter I come home with 2-3 bars so I’ve had to use a public charger at times. Charging for 12-13 hours overnight when I get home only gets me to 14-15 bars and I still have some range anxiety.

Almost all my charging will be at home. Public charging helps keep the car/battery warm as well as give me a bit of peace of mind and a little extra range as I’m still getting used to the car.

 

[Aerowhatt]

Thanks for making the thread Joe!

I love my MIEV. I bought it solely for my 84km commute and it does that well although in the cold winter I come home with 2-3 bars so I’ve had to use a public charger at times. Charging for 12-13 hours overnight when I get home only gets me to 14-15 bars and I still have some range anxiety.

Almost all my charging will be at home. Public charging helps keep the car/battery warm as well as give me a bit of peace of mind and a little extra range as I’m still getting used to the car.

I would serious consider upgrading my home charging to 240V if I were you. When you consider the ongoing cost of supplemental public charging, it won't take long to pay yourself back for the upgrade. Winter becomes far more manageable Since pre heating (defroster mode) on 240v leaves you with a toasty warm cabin to start out and piping hot fluid in the system to maintain comfort with minimal battery usage. Leaving at 100% every morning, it sounds like it would get you over the hump and eliminate any reason for range anxiety. Just being able to be confident and comfortable with your range is worth quite a bit in my life. Starting each day easily at 100% is what 240 volts gets you.
We can go hiking in the mountains, go out to dinner on the way back, even go to a movie after dinner. Getting home with between 10% and 20% left in the battery. Plug in at say 10:30pm dial in a 2 hour timer delay. The car is 100% full and ready to be preheated before I wake up in the morning! What is that worth . . . more than it cost me for sure! Saved enough on fuel cost in 5000 relaxed confident miles to pay for it.

EVgo has entered NM recently. I have been to their DCQC twice (testing the water). Would not function either time! A customer service remote system reboot of the unit threw up a Windows 98 screen while it was booting up. Really, seriously, what a joke (still would not work). Total DCQC attempts here with (now) two providers is 21 attempts to charge. Only 13 of those resulted in an actual charge. All but two I called Customer service for help. Not one time could they solve the problem remotely. Their APPS always show the locations ready to go. In one case the CS rep told me they had an error, charge failure report from another EV owner, 8 days before mine. Yet, the APP told me, all was good when I headed there. Imagine the protests in the streets if ICE drivers had that experience at gas stations!

Aerowhatt

 

[jray3]

And then we have the BLINK IPO. The outfit that purchased the Blink Network out of bankruptcy, Car Charging Group, renamed themselves Blink, and is now requesting charity or wildly optimistic stock purchases for an IPO that will primarily pay down debt, including back bonuses to former executives and lots of legal fees. However, they don't make sense to me. The helpline is still staffed and I just jot a call that one of the stations I host, which has failed it's self-test procedure for over six months, should be repaired this week! I have confirmation that there's a rush of repairs going on in the Seattle area right now, must be trying to raise PlugShare scores prior to the offering.

Here's the message going out to customers... skim the prospectus for maximized entertainment.

Our Public Offering

BlinkCharging.com
Blink Charging Stations

As an early adopter and/or advocate of the electric vehicle (EV) market, you likely agree with our mission of supporting EV adoption and the expansion of public EV charging infrastructure. Whether it's residential or commercial EV charging equipment and services, we are committed to providing the necessary infrastructure wherever cars park.

As a loyal Blink member, we know that you're aware of both the exciting opportunities and the challenges of the industry, and we would like to make you aware of new company announcements and investment opportunities. Therefore, we are excited to announce that Blink Charging has filed documentation with the Securities Exchange Commission (the "SEC") regarding a public offering of our securities and, at our request, the underwriters of that offering have agreed to consider reserving a number of the shares of common stock being offered for our Blink members.

To learn about the public offering, view the offering prospectus, and/or express interest in participating in the offering, please visit:

https://www.blinkcharging.com/investor-inquiry

If you would prefer to speak to a broker directly, please contact [email protected]

We thank you, as always, for your business and look forward to an exciting future together!

Sincerely,

Mike Calise
Chief Executive Officer

Blink Charging Co. (the "Company") has filed a registration statement on Form S-1 (the "registration statement") with the SEC for the offering to which this communication relates. The offering will be made by means of a prospectus only. Before you invest, you should read the prospectus included in the registration statement for more complete information about the Company and this offering. You may get these documents for free by visiting EDGAR on the SEC web site at www.sec.gov. Alternatively, the Company, the underwriter or any dealer participating in the offering will arrange to send you the prospectus if you request it by calling toll-free 1-888-248-6627. This communication shall not constitute an offer to sell or the solicitation of an offer to buy, nor shall there be any sale of the referenced securities in any state or jurisdiction in which such offer, solicitation, or sale would be unlawful prior to registration or qualification under the securities laws of any such state or jurisdiction.
BlinkCharging.com
Copyright © 2018 Blink Charging, All rights reserved.

 

[JoeS]

Yes, I also got that 'invite' from Blink and rolled my eyes :roll: and didn't bother reading the prospectus.

On the one hand we can criticize EVgo for their pricing and Blink for their ongoing broken hardware, but on the other hand what desperately-needed public EV charging model works without some type of subsidy?

As an example, the Japanese have funded the DriveTheArc project consisting of a whole bunch of EVgo charging stations providing a path from Monterey to Lake Tahoe in California, with CHAdeMO presently being free.
https://insideevs.com/drivethearc-fast-charging-corridor-now-open-from-monterey-to-lake-tahoe/

There's a certain amount of silliness in both the willy-nilly locating of public charging stations and then having only one or two EVSEs at those locations, resulting in a complete lack of dependability when it comes to being able to rely on them. Recently, I've noticed that the situation is being exacerbated by needless (IMO) occupation by clueless Bolt owners, supplementing PHEVs, thus making it even more iffy for us in i-MiEVs to venture outside our home range radius.

Tesla has recognized the need as the Model 3 production ramps up and is increasing both the number of charging locations and number of stations at very many existing locations. Here's a great example, where 16 Supercharger stations were added across the street from the existing four stations right on my route from home to Medford, Oregon - check out the photo with beautiful Mt. Shasta in the background:
https://www.plugshare.com/location/139992
In some high-use locations that I've used, Tesla has added temporary Superchargers sitting on palettes. I'm looking forward to visiting Tesla's recently-opened 40-station solar/battery with customer lounge addition at Kettleman City. Dang, that's almost decadent!
https://www.plugshare.com/location/135469

Finally, this topic was recently addressed by a Green Car Reports article:
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...oad-has-to-be-way-way-better-than-it-is-today

 

[ChrisEV]

This is what I’m debating about my next EV car once my ICE van is paid off. My iMiev is perfect for cummuting and running errands around town but I’d want something wth much more range as another car eventually and go fully electric.

Having access to Superchargers is a huge bonus as public EV charging is expensive and somewhat unreliable. Tesla is putting up a few more Superchargers here in Toronto according to PlugShare which is impressive.

But I’m not really sold on the Model3, that minimalist interior with the giant touch screen just looks off to me.

 

[JoeS]

I found this EVgo analysis pertinent to this discussion, with DCQC issues from the supplier's point of view -

https://d231jw5ce53gcq.cloudfront.n.../eLab_EVgo_Fleet_and_Tariff_Analysis_2017.pdf

Demand charges are hideous - for example, PG&E's demand rate is $18.64 per kWh (that's right, NOT 18¢/kWh!), and as I understand it this then lasts through the entire billing cycle.

Ref: http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-19.pdf

Without a rate restructure specifically pertinent to DCQC high-demand-power car charging, I think it's tough to make a profit being a DCQC car-charging supplier.

In wandering around some of Tesla's recently-installed Superchargers, I've spied sizeable battery banks - undoubtedly intended to take peak loads and ensure that the facility doesn't get into the demand charging region. Incidentally, the local high school, in addition to installing a massive solar array covering their parking lot, also installed a huge battery bank for demand charge mitigation. Evidently the math showed a very short payback timeframe.

 

[ChrisEV]

Without a rate restructure specifically pertinent to DCQC high-demand-power car charging, I think it's tough to make a profit being a DCQC car-charging supplier.

In wandering around some of Tesla's recently-installed Superchargers, I've spied sizeable battery banks - undoubtedly intended to take peak loads and ensure that the facility doesn't get into the demand charging region. Incidentally, the local high school, in addition to installing a massive solar array covering their parking lot, also installed a huge battery bank for demand charge mitigation. Evidently the math showed a very short payback timeframe.

That’s a good find, I suspected the rates are obscene behind the scenes. All the L3 chargers here are similarly priced, causing some outrage as a lot of them were government subsidized.

I’ve seen several solar powered stations here in Canada, that might be the way if rates aren’t improved.

 

[Don]

I’ve seen several solar powered stations here in Canada, that might be the way if rates aren’t improved.

I don't see any way solar alone will ever help to improve L3 charging rates. Unless a LARGE solar array could be used to charge a LARGE battery pack so the demand for LARGE amounts of current in a hurry won't impact the cost of the electricity, there's nothing there to moderate the peak demand for juice from the utility

Even then, the LARGE cost of setting up the big solar array and the big battery bank would certainly make for a need for higher charges to amortize the big front end expenditures. I think Tesla got around the large expenses of their Supercharger network by adding a few thousand to the cost of every car they were selling - When they began offering more mid-priced cars, access to the Supercharger network was no longer free

In my humble opinion, the eventual use of most EV's will be determined by the practical size of the battery vs the intended use of the vehicle. You *need* 300 or 500 or even 750 miles of range, you can build an EV which will do that - The downside is that for most uses, you're lugging around many hundreds of pounds of extra weight for a huge battery pack that you very seldom need, which reduces the efficiency of the vehicle. For 90% or so of average needs a car with 100 or so miles of range can pretty much do what you need. Make it small and nimble, easy to park, easy to get into and out of and add the ability to fold down seats so you can carry a good bit of cargo when needed and you've pretty much got it all . . . . IMO

Don

 

[JoeS]

...For 90% or so of average needs a car with 100 or so miles of range can pretty much do what you need. Make it small and nimble, easy to park, easy to get into and out of and add the ability to fold down seats so you can carry a good bit of cargo when needed and you've pretty much got it all . . . . IMO

Don, agree with you. Talking with both Tesla and Bolt owners I've come to realize that the major selling point to them was 'range' and which has nothing to do with the reality of how they use their cars. The two (female) Tesla owners in my exercise class simply drive the cars locally and are fearful of taking even a short excursion outside the Bay Area (Lake Tahoe is beyond their comprehension) and one hasn't even tried a Supercharger yet! At an environmental presentation last week I was talking with new Bolt owner who finally bought the car because he said it was the first EV that finally met his needs ... he lives in the hills and has a 30-mile one-way daily commute WITH charging at work, and, no, he "wouldn't dare" take it on a longer trip - AND he didn't even know if his car has CCS. Go figure...

Can't help but think that dealers selling PHEVs are responsible for at least some of this fear-mongering.

When I tell people of my cross-country Tesla trips you'd think I was climbing Mt. Everest or something... :shock:

Back on topic, whenever I put PlugShare up on my iPad to show off the existing charging infrastructure, most people are amazed and had no idea of its existence! Perceptions, again. Never mind that they don't know what they're looking at, but simply having all those green and orange icons scattered all over the local map is compelling to them and an 'aha' moment. IMO, future public EV charging should be focused on highway DCQC, whereas multi-unit dwelling charging support needs both a carrot and a stick for much more rapid implementation than we've had to date.

 

[jray3]

Demand charges are hideous - for example, PG&E's demand rate is $18.64 per kWh (that's right, NOT 18¢/kWh!), and as I understand it this then lasts through the entire billing cycle.

tsk, tsk, Joe- probly a typo, but I'll take you to task for perpetuating some of the misunderstandings around demand charges. Demand is instantaneous power measured in kW, similar to throttle position, while consumption is energy consumed over time, in kWh (akin to distance travelled). Speed vs miles travelled is another analogy. So just as you can get a speeding ticket yet have a very low average trip speed, demand spikes are very expensive even though a DCFC station may use less energy than some houses over the course of a day (which see no demand charges).

In my day job as a school district energy manager, instantaneous demand ranges between 100 kW and 1200 kW for a high school, and high demand is only experienced during less than 3% of our operating time, but makes up at least 40% of the electric cost! So even though a grid-tied battery that is only called on for offsetting brief demand spikes will actually add to total energy consumed due to charge/discharge losses, it can be quite profitable to buy that energy in periods of low demand and sell during high demand, as evidenced by TESLA's big South Australian project.
https://www.sciencealert.com/south-...lion-neoen-company?perpetual=yes&limitstart=1

I think there's a future for DCFC stations with big batteries that are also in the grid frequency regulation and peak power market. Better yet, if they're on the customer side of a big meter attached to a factory, shopping mall, hospital or school, then the battery will produce savings at retail rather than wholesale cost while also providing for emergency power backup rather than expensive and less-reliable generator sets. And then of course, for extended emergency operation, that battery needs to be attached to solar, and off we go into a positive feedback loop.

 

[jray3]

Back to the main topic, I think that a lot of the new VW and State public charging infrastructure will be underutilized and thought it was because the new stations would mainly serve as insurance and soothe the range anxiety of potential buyers, but according to Joe's experience, I should go back into depression because EVen the existing EV drivers are ignorant of the existing EV infrastructure!

 

[Don]

Demand is instantaneous power measured in kW, similar to throttle position, while consumption is energy consumed over time, in kWh (akin to distance travelled). Speed vs miles travelled is another analogy. So just as you can get a speeding ticket yet have a very low average trip speed, demand spikes are very expensive even though a DCFC station may use less energy than some houses over the course of a day (which see no demand charges).

In my day job as a school district energy manager, instantaneous demand ranges between 100 kW and 1200 kW for a high school, and high demand is only experienced during less than 3% of our operating time, but makes up at least 40% of the electric cost!

Isn't that because once a demand meter is bumped up to a certain peak demand, all future electricity is priced at that demand level until the end of that billing cycle?

Even a few minutes use at the 1200Kw level you specified causes the later, lower 100Kw uses to be charged at the same rate as the 1200Kw rate?

If you had a large enough battery bank, you could charge it at the 100Kw rate (or better yet at the even lower overnight TOU rates) and then let the battery bank supply the brief 1200Kw surges

Don

 

[jray3]

![/quote]Isn't that because once a demand meter is bumped up to a certain peak demand, all future electricity is priced at that demand level until the end of that billing cycle?
Don[/quote]

Practices vary a lot between utilities and different states. I don't know a term for what Don described, but a similar concept is the Demand Ratchet, which can set demand charges that continue forward for up to a year, regardless of how low your demand falls during that year. Each time you hit or exceed that high demand paint, the clock is set for another 12 months of charges going forward. The reasoning is that the utility has to build and maintain infrastructure to support that high level of demand even if you're not using it often.

I'm lucky to have a pretty straightforward system. We pay demand charges for the highest demand averaged across a single 15 minute period in the month, and that demand charge is unrelated to the energy charge per kWH, regardless of when consumed (no Time of Use pricing). If we improve operations, the savings materialize within a month, instead of waiting up to a year for a full return on the investment.

Here's a more detailed description from the WSU Energy Extension Service:

Ratchet Demand Charge
Some utilities have a ratchet charge on the demand. The highest monthly demand experienced for the year becomes your annual peak. The annual peak is then used to ratchet the monthly demand peaks for the next 11 months. For example, the minimum demand charge for any month is 60 percent of the highest demand in the preceding 11-month period. Demand is a very important target for reduction if your utility has a ratchet clause on the demand.

Examples of a ratchet demand charges:

Your demand in December is 800 kW, and you pay $5 per kW
You will pay a $4,000 demand charge for December
The following June, the demand meter reads 150 kW. You are charged $2,400 rather than $750 (60 percent of 800 kW is 480 kW, times $5 per kW, equals $2,400)
This increase in demand cost of $1,650 is due to the ratchet clause in the rate schedule. This same ratchet will be charged in all warm months, even when demand is low.

 

[Don]

. . . . . at any rate, that pretty much explains why DCQC is so ridiculously expensive in so many places

Don

 

[ChrisEV]

...For 90% or so of average needs a car with 100 or so miles of range can pretty much do what you need. Make it small and nimble, easy to park, easy to get into and out of and add the ability to fold down seats so you can carry a good bit of cargo when needed and you've pretty much got it all . . . . IMO

Back on topic, whenever I put PlugShare up on my iPad to show off the existing charging infrastructure, most people are amazed and had no idea of its existence! Perceptions, again. Never mind that they don't know what they're looking at, but simply having all those green and orange icons scattered all over the local map is compelling to them and an 'aha' moment. IMO, future public EV charging should be focused on highway DCQC, whereas multi-unit dwelling charging support needs both a carrot and a stick for much more rapid implementation than we've had to date.

There’s a lot of ignorance and misconception about EV’s so a lot comes from that. Everyone I talk to gets wide eyed about my EV as they had no idea how it works.

Most people don’t really keep track of their daily mileage either.

From all my conversations about EVs with people it’s in the context of replacing their primary ICE vehicle which can go a few hundred km’s on a full tank of gas. Nobody worries about running out of gas on a trip because you can go very far, gas stations are everywhere and it takes minutes to fill up.

It’s all about convenience. And that’s why Tesla is leading because their cars are closest to mimicking ICE cars in terms of range and availability/convenience/speed of Superchargers.

My I-MIEV is perfect for what I got it for which is commuting and doing shopping trips around town but I’ll almost never take it on a long trip beyond it’s range.

I’m on a short 160km trip out of town right now and I wouldn’t dare take the I-MIEV. Given the 29F temperature, lack of L3 chargers on the route and a lot of uphill driving plus wind I probably wouldn’t have made it to the few L2 chargers available.

. . . . . at any rate, that pretty much explains why DCQC is so ridiculously expensive in so many places

Don

There’s several free L3 chargers here in town, most notably IKEA. I wonder how that long that will last.

Even Tesla owners use them which causes some anger(go to a supercharger!).

 

[JoeS]

Demand charges are hideous - for example, PG&E's demand rate is $18.64 per kWh (that's right, NOT 18¢/kWh!), and as I understand it this then lasts through the entire billing cycle.

tsk, tsk, Joe- probly a typo, but I'll take you to task for perpetuating some of the misunderstandings around demand charges. Demand is instantaneous power measured in kW, similar to throttle position, while consumption is energy consumed over time, in kWh (akin to distance travelled). ..In my day job as a school district energy manager, instantaneous demand ranges between 100 kW and 1200 kW for a high school, and high demand is only experienced during less than 3% of our operating time, but makes up at least 40% of the electric cost! ..

jray3, you're right, in reading the PG&E table I missed the 'demand' column being $/kW and not $/kWh! My bad, with apologies, and I'd love to have a separate discussion with you about this whole subject the next time we visit.

Back on topic, jray3's example shows the disproportionate penalty being paid for such 'demand' charges. Since multiple DCQC stations at one location may well trigger such demand charges, the legislative approach could be to exempt EV DCQC stations from such a tariff (if that's the proper word), or the pragmatic approach would be to install batteries to ensure the demand peak power point is never exceeded. It would not be acceptable to throttle back all the cars charging to keep this limit from being exceeded. Along this line, two Tesla superchargers normally share a common input (the stations are labeled "1A" & "1B", "2A" & "2B, etc.) so when a Tesla plugs into a station number that is already being used by another car, then the power to both is reduced - as I understand it, with priority given to the car that's already charging. During my cross-country trip I paid a lot of attention to this and was usually successful in avoiding power sharing.
Edit:
ChrisEV, would you have taken that 160km winter trip in the i-MiEV if you had free CHAdeMO L3 spaced every 65km along the way?

I suspect that free (subsidized) L3 charging will gradually disappear. Given some of the present L3 cost structure (e.g., EVgo), at today's gasoline rates this makes long-distance BEV travel not only somewhat painful (timewise with <50kW stations) but also uncompetitive financially with ICE (except for Tesla).