Car won't start after storage

[karellen]

I have a few issues going on with my 2012 iMiev with 22k miles. About a month ago it suddenly stopped charging fully. Regardless of level 1 or 2 it would only go to 75% after several attempts. I decided to park it until I could take it to the dealer. Here we are a month later and the battery gauge shows not quite 3/4 charge. I start it up and drive it about 1 mile and the car promptly died. When re-starting it, the ready light would come on and the quickly switch to the red battery light. I pushed it into a friends driveway and we put a trickle charger on the 12v. It is now showing 12.8 volts. The car starts, I drive it around the block and it dies again near my friends driveway. We tried unhooking the 12v battery for a few minutes and then re-attaching it. Now, the traction battery shows 0 charge and -- miles. Turning the key just results in a red battery light, no ready light or happy ding. When plugging in the level 1, it will charge for 1-2 minutes, then turn off.

The rub is that I'm moving across the country next week, and really need the car to be able to drive onto the transport. Unfortunately no time to take it to the dealer until after the move.

Any advice?

 

[JoeS]

karellen, sorry to hear. The fact that the car would not charge fully is the first indicator that there is a serious problem with the traction battery. Typically, one or more of the cells is dying. Too bad you parked it, as all you had to do is go to the dealer and they would have ordered and installed a brand-new battery pack under warranty. The rest of your symptoms are consistent with one or more of your main battery cells going dead. I'm afraid that you probably won't be able to power it up to load it onto the transport.

At some point you'll have to take it to the dealer and you'll have to leave it with them for at least a week or two or three while they replace the traction battery pack. Alternatively, recognizing that you're under the gun for a cross-country move, sell the car as-is to a knowledgeable i-MiEV person who might be willing to take a chance at the prospect of a brand-new battery pack.

A few questions for you:

1. What were your charging habits on a daily basis?
2. Do you often leave the car fully charged and not driven right away?
3. How often do you get down to one bar and how often have you seen turtle?
4. Whereabouts are you located? How hot has it been there lately?
5. Which model do you have and does your car have CHAdeMO? If yes, how often did you use DCQC?

Wish you all the best with getting your i-MiEV back and on the road.

 

[kiev]

If that is the original 12V battery, then it is probably worn out and not up to the job. Even though it was trickle charged and indicated 12.8 open circuit, the real test is what does the voltage do under a load--does it hold up or lay down. My guess is that it is weak and lays down under load, and this is what is causing the car not to go READY.

It may be that it could be recharged with a real charger of at least 1 to 2 Amp rating. A trickle charger can keep a good battery topped up if left on all the time, but it doesn't put out enough current to re-charge a depleted or weak battery. So maybe try a different charger if the battery sags under load.

Most autoparts stores will have a battery tester that will check the battery voltage with a load. In a pinch you could get a 12V lawnmower battery at walmar for $19 and it would work for loading onto a transporter--it will fit in the space available and is cheap.

To me it is more likely that the pack is not being charged because of a weak 12V battery that can't hold the main contactors closed to allow charging, rather than a failure of the cells in the main pack.

 

[JoeS]

kiev - if the main pack is ok, wouldn't the dc-dc force the 12v to hold its own after the car 'started', no matter how weak the 12v battery is?

I agree with kiev that going after the 12v is the first step, recognizing the time constraints.

 

[kiev]

But the 12V must be stiff enough to hold up under the load of the contactors or else the HV never reaches the dc-dc converter. Plus i think the car is too smart to let itself try to boot-strap start and run--it is an accident waiting to happen once you go down that path.

Plus it smells like pervpetual motion--if it can start and run on a dead 12V, then we can tap off of that and run inverters for power to our house, then plug in the EVSE and charge the pack... :lol:

 

[JoeS]

But karellen said they started it and ran around the block and it died. Presumably the main battery was at least partially charged and, yes, I am under the impression that once 12v is achieved that the dc-dc will keep things going ... hmm, it would be an interesting experiment to parallel a resistor with the 12v battery, start the car, then remove the 12v battery... :roll: Didn't Chrysler do that as a stunt when they introduced the alternator?

Back on topic, karellen let us know where you are located as maybe someone from this forum might be able to try helping you out. A cross-country move puts you under a lot of pressure...

 

[karellen]

Thanks for the advice so far.

I'm in the Madison, WI area. I didn't take it into the dealer a month ago because our local dealer shut down and now the closest one is over 60 miles away. Added to the fact I was reading it takes many weeks for a battery replacement. I am moving to an area with 4 Mitsu dealers within 20 miles.

I did try jumping it off of an ICE car after the first time it happened. It didn't seem to make a difference -- it would go into ready, then after a second or two the battery light came on.

It is the original battery as far as I can tell. Would a bad 12v cause it to not charge the traction battery? Or cause it to show 0 charge? Seems odd that it would change after disconnecting it.

To answer JoeS's questions:

1. What were your charging habits on a daily basis?
Level 2 every evening to 100%, driven to 1/3 battery daily over the course of my commute.
2. Do you often leave the car fully charged and not driven right away?
Not really. It was driven almost every day prior to parking it.
3. How often do you get down to one bar and how often have you seen turtle?
Only saw turtle once in the past year. I would get down to 1-2 bars maybe a few times a month during the winter.
4. Whereabouts are you located? How hot has it been there lately?
Wisconsin. We've had some highs in the upper 80s lately.
5. Which model do you have and does your car have CHAdeMO? If yes, how often did you use DCQC?
SE, but without CHAdeMO.

Thanks again!

 

[PV1]

It definitely sounds like a bad cell in the main battery. When mine went, it went pretty quick. By the time of my appointment at the dealer, it took two waypoint charge stops to go the 30 miles to the dealer.

What causes the i-MiEV to not fully charge when this happens is that at least one cell develops high self discharge and drops below the voltage of the other cells. It is too much of a drain for the balancing circuits to correct, so that cell continues to fall in voltage. When charging, the BMS tells the car to stop when a cell hits the high point of 4.11 volts (it'll taper the charge rate then shut down). But, SoC takes into consideration the highest cell voltage, average pack voltage, and the lowest cell voltage. Since all but one cell are full and the bad cell is at 3.7 volts for example, the car may only show something like 30% charge (3 bars).

Given your time frame for moving, I would call ahead to the dealers where you'll be moving to, and see if they are i-MiEV certified, then schedule an appointment so you can get the car looked at shortly after arriving. In the meantime, measure the 12 volt battery voltage, then turn the key on and measure it again. It shouldn't drop below 12 volts. If it does, replacing it would be a good idea (might save money at the dealer).

Joe, the 12 volt battery only sees a load when not READY or charging. But, if the battery is too weak and just barely achieved READY, the DC-DC converter could overshoot the target voltage and shut down. Didn't another member mention the car reacting unpleasantly to the 12 volt battery being disconnected while READY?

Doesn't bennelson live close to Madison? Does he have an OBDLink?

 

[Don]

I agree from the symptoms (failing to recharge to 16 bars) that it probably needs a new main traction battery pack

But the rest of what he's experiencing sounds like a bad 12 volt battery to me. When it dies, all sorts of strange things happen, because the car is completely dependent on the 12 volt system to get it up and running. We had the 12 volt go bad in one of our cars and I replaced it with a Miata AGM battery

Don

 

[karellen]

Agreed on the traction pack.

Did you need to do anything special to get the Miata battery to fit or is it a direct swap? I have a small lithium "jump battery" I could try on it, but I'd be willing to give the Miata battery a shot to rule it out.

 

[Don]

I bought the Miata AGM because it was actually a little cheaper ($100) than the flooded battery which fits the iMiEV - Evidently since it's an odd size it justifies charging more for it

As I recall, the Miata battery was a bit shorter, so I cut a piece of 2 x 6 to sit under the battery so the OEM hold downs would still work correctly. Other than that, it was an OK fit and it works fine. Since it's an AGM, it should be able to sit lots longer before it goes dead if it's used in a car which isn't driven everyday

Don

 

[phb10186]

Probabilisticly the chances of a 12v and traction fault occurring at the same time would be very low in my opinion.

So I would have thought it would be one or the other. It's cheaper to replace the 12v battery than do most things... so you'll have to do that... then you'll know for sure.

Have to say, the fact that it won't charge beyond 75% and that it is dying does sound like a traction issue to me... but probably better to worry about that once you can rule out the 12v.


One last thing... have you double checked that the 12v terminal connections and earth points are tight, if they have been touched... got to think of the simple things too.

I went on holiday last week and left the car with 30% SOC, it failed to go to ready for the first time ever, but it did go after a re-do. It's been unusually hot in the UK recently... up to about 90... in fact it was hotter than the sub tropics.

 

[Phximiev]

90 is hot? :lol:

 

[pbui19]

... I have a small lithium "jump battery" I could try on it, but I'd be willing to give the Miata battery a shot to rule it out.

definitely try to "jump" with your jump battery. I would jump the iMiev auxiliary 12v and leave it connected while try to charge with your Level 2 for a while, may be 30-60 minutes and see if the traction pack starts to gain some bars.

It's an quick easy way to rule out the 12v. If you have a voltmeter, it'll be a lot easier to determine its health.

good luck

 

[phb10186]

90 is hot? :lol:

This is temperate 95, not desert 95.

It was up to 95 on one day last week. Yes, that's hot - especially given the fact that it was unbearably humid and the air pollution index was very high, we don't have A/C mostly in our homes as its usually once every couple of years it gets that hot, and our houses are built of bricks, which end up becoming a storage heater for days.

The tarmack was melting on the roads too in some places, and the London Underground was sweltering, as thats got no AC either... except for maybe one or two lines.

 

[Don]

90 is hot? :lol:

Here where we live, 90 degrees with 85% relative humidity computes to a heat index of 117 degrees - We do consider that to be a bit on the 'hot' side

Don

 

[bennelson]

Hi karellen.

Please check your private messages. I just sent you one.

I live about an hour from Madison and could probably help you. I have a good multimeter, battery load tester, ODBII device for the iMiEV and a couple other tools that would be handy to see if we can figure out what's wrong with your car.

I'm available this weekend.

-Ben Nelson

 

[karellen]

Bought a new 151r battery and installed it last night. No change, the traction battery still shows empty and won't charge.

 

[PV1]

I think you've found the problem, or at least eliminated one.

I think it'd be best to have bennelson bring his OBDLink and tablet to see what's going on in the pack. My theory is that a cell failed and rapidly discharged, hence why it simply didn't fully charge at first, but is now empty and won't start. It may have been just over 2.75 volts before when it would go in and right back out of READY. Once it went READY, the draw from the pack pulled the voltage down to the low voltage cutoff, and the car shut down. Now, the cell is idle below the cutoff.

That's my theory, but CaniOn will tell us if that is correct or not.

 

[JoeS]

Since the objective at this moment is to get the car onto the transporter, perhaps repeated attempts to charge might jolt the pack into accepting at least a partial charge?

If all else fails, the transporter should have a winch backup... I'd talk with the transporter, as you risk them leaving you stranded.

Also, I would fully charge that brand-new 12v battery with an external charger, as it will be repeatedly subjected to loads as the key is turned to move the car around.