240V Charging and Extension cables (Amazing-E)

[bradleydavidgood777]

That's a good idea about removing the ground.

I said NEUTRAL, not GROUND.

Yes I'm sorry about that, I understand the difference but have been confusing it when reading for some reason.

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

So Don,

Lets stay with your "Transfer switch before the dryer option" for now. And knowing that we can remove the NEUTRAL pin from the AmazingE means we can use it with any type of connector or outdoor cord right?

What outdoor cord would I use? I guess I could use the existing 100 foot 10 gauge 120V cord I'm using now right? Hot Hot ground is all we need. And would I cut off the existing plug from the AmazingE and replace it with another type like locking? Or maybe I could find an outdoor 14-30R to go on the end of the extension cord? I could not find that on the web so if anyone knows where to find it I would love that.

I like the dryer option of putting a transfer switch before the dryer. Then I could effectively "turn off" the cable to the outside near the car for safety because it could deliver a good shock to a child. But the dryer is in the back of the house so this would add another 35-40 feet to the outdoor cable making it about 80 feet. So the transfer switch would go before the dryer, then from the transfer switch, one leg goes to the dryer, and one to a new box with a pair of 20A fuses or breakers. Then out of that box could I just run the outdoor cable thru the wall? This would eliminate the need for an outdoor box. The other benefit of this option is that the wall to the outside is just wallboard not thick brick like the front of the house option.

 

[wmcbrine]

This is the first EVSE that I'm aware of that requires 4 wires to operate - I've never seen any others that come with anything other than a 3 pin plug.

There are many, many EVSEs that come with 4-pin plugs (most commonly the 14-50). But generally, their neutral is unconnected. I see no sign that the AmazingE is different -- they state that it needs a ground, don't mention neutral, and correctly point out that NEMA 10-* are obsolete, and that neutral and ground are not interchangeable, in principle (although you may be able to make it work in practice).

The EVSEs that come with 3-pin plugs are hot, hot and ground (e.g. NEMA 6-50), which is no more compatible with a 10-30's hot/hot/neutral than is a 4-pin plug.

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

This is the first EVSE that I'm aware of that requires 4 wires to operate - I've never seen any others that come with anything other than a 3 pin plug.

There are many, many EVSEs that come with 4-pin plugs (most commonly the 14-50). But generally, their neutral is unconnected. I see no sign that the AmazingE is different -- they state that it needs a ground, don't mention neutral, and correctly point out that NEMA 10-* are obsolete, and that neutral and ground are not interchangeable, in principle (although you may be able to make it work in practice).

The EVSEs that come with 3-pin plugs are hot, hot and ground (e.g. NEMA 6-50), which is no more compatible with a 10-30's hot/hot/neutral than is a 4-pin plug.

Thanks wmcbrine,

So what would you do in my situation?

If neutral and ground go to the same place on the panel than what makes them NOT INTERCHANGABLE?

If I would replace my dryer receptacle with a 4 prong and plug the AmazingE into it, the ground of the AmazingE would terminate at the panel neutral bar. If I don't upgrade my dryer receptacle and use the 3 wires that I have and wire the ground on the EVSE to the neutral wire, it will terminate at the panel neutral bar. In both situations, the ground has it's own dedicated path, so I see no difference in flow at all and no difference in safety.

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

Further confusing the issue, bradleydavidgood77, you keep interjecting the NEMA 10-50 connector.

Joe - Thank you for pointing this out. I meant 14-50 not 10-50. I have corrected it in all of the previous posts.

 

[Don]

Thanks Don,

That is an interesting option but I don't have any outlets near the car. Just one out back.

So - You have one 120 volt outlet near the car? Probably the one you've been using for L1 charging??

Is that outlet on it's own breaker?? - If so, you have a really, really easy solution to your L2 charging problems

Cross your fingers and hope you get lucky! Find the breaker for that outlet, turn it off and see if you lose power to any other outlets or loads. If not, we're in business for sure!

Report back when you know for sure

Don

 

[JoeS]

bradleydavidgood777, to better understand the connector wiring, google "nema wiring chart" which will show you the myriad of ways every connector should be wired.

Three-wire 240vac circuits utilize HOT-HOT-GROUND.

The reason the US code was changed to require four-wire instead of three-wire 240vac circuits is that many 240vac appliances started using 120vac (one leg of the input) for their control circuitry, which resulted in current flow in the ground wire. With the change, 120vac current flow is now properly routed through the Neutral wire back to the service panel, maintaining the sefety integrity of the separate ground wire.

As we said earlier, 240vac EVSEs normally only use the two hot wires, with a safety ground. Some confusion was interjected into this discussion regarding the Amazing-E and its internal configuration. I am not surprised that the Neutral connection is unused on the Amazing-E. As was pointed out, cutting off the Neutral pin will allow this connector to plug into either a 14-30 or 14-50 outlet, and you can make a simple adapter to plug it into your old-style 10-30 dryer outlet.

Bottom line, it appears that all you need to bring out is three wires: Hot-Hot-Ground

Is that outlet on it's own breaker?? - If so, you have a really, really easy solution to your L2 charging problems

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

Thanks Don,
So - You have one 120 volt outlet near the car? Probably the one you've been using for L1 charging??
Is that outlet on it's own breaker?? - If so, you have a really, really easy solution to your L2 charging problems
Don

The outside outlet is not near the car. It is in the back of the house. I use it to charge currently with this cord:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0163AKFA0/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I forgot to cross my fingers but went and checked the panel where I have everything labeled very well. That breaker has many other things on it. Plus I use that outlet all of the time for stuff outside on the patio and yard.

I see where you were going though. Good idea.

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

bradleydavidgood777, to better understand the connector wiring, google "nema wiring chart" which will show you the myriad of ways every connector should be wired.

Three-wire 240vac circuits utilize HOT-HOT-GROUND.

The reason the US code was changed to require four-wire instead of three-wire 240vac circuits is that many 240vac appliances started using 120vac (one leg of the input) for their control circuitry, which resulted in current flow in the ground wire. With the change, 120vac current flow is now properly routed through the Neutral wire back to the service panel, maintaining the sefety integrity of the separate ground wire.

As we said earlier, 240vac EVSEs normally only use the two hot wires, with a safety ground. Some confusion was interjected into this discussion regarding the Amazing-E and its internal configuration. I am not surprised that the Neutral connection is unused on the Amazing-E. As was pointed out, cutting off the Neutral pin will allow this connector to plug into either a 14-30 or 14-50 outlet, and you can make a simple adapter to plug it into your old-style 10-30 dryer outlet.

Bottom line, it appears that all you need to bring out is three wires: Hot-Hot-Ground

Is that outlet on it's own breaker?? - If so, you have a really, really easy solution to your L2 charging problems

Joe - Thanks, the NEMA wiring chart search is very helpful. I think I understand the wiring and now just need to understand the parts and connectors to use. I can't plug into the dryer outlet because its 90 feet from the car. So the EVSE has to plug into a connector that is right by the car on the end of a cord and waterproof. I have 2 10 gauge 120V cords now. 50 foot and 100 foot. I could use one of those for the new configuration if I replace the connectors...the question is - with what? Because I have not found a connector that would work out there at the end of the cord by the car.

 

[JoeS]

...So the EVSE has to plug into a connector that is right by the car on the end of a cord and waterproof. I have 2 10 gauge 120V cords now. 50 foot and 100 foot. I could use one of those for the new configuration if I replace the connectors...the question is - with what? Because I have not found a connector that would work out there at the end of the cord by the car.

Let's go back a step. Don had suggested modifying the existing 120vac outlet line that you are presently using and converting that line to 240vac, if it is a dedicated line with its own circuit breaker. Is this what you intend to do?

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

...So the EVSE has to plug into a connector that is right by the car on the end of a cord and waterproof. I have 2 10 gauge 120V cords now. 50 foot and 100 foot. I could use one of those for the new configuration if I replace the connectors...the question is - with what? Because I have not found a connector that would work out there at the end of the cord by the car.

Let's go back a step. Don had suggested modifying the existing 120vac outlet line that you are presently using and converting that line to 240vac, if it is a dedicated line with its own circuit breaker. Is this what you intend to do?

No, not a dedicated outlet. Can't do that. Two options on the table. Transfer switch at dryer or new circuit out of panel. Video processing on Youtube....stay tuned.

So what about this question about the connector to use at the car/EVSE? Assuming that I re-use the extension cord I use now for L1?

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

A picture is worth a thousand words. How much is a video worth? Should have done this earlier....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOMYLDx6Img

 

[JoeS]

You actually did a pretty good job of describing your situation, but the video adds depth to your dilemma.

My preference would be to add a couple of small 20A circuit breakers at your input panel, run a conduit across the basement, bring the power out through the brick wall, and if you're ambitious dig a trench and run a conduit out closer to the car. Problem is to see what can be done, if anything, within code. Heck, you probably have a 240v source at that aircon unit ... pesky code constraints, again. Might be an idea to bring your electrician acquaintance out and explain what your end goal is and a $$ limit and let him make some suggestions.

As far as connectors are concerned, I would leave the 14-30 alone (cut off that Neutral pin) on the Amazing-E, as it will be useful at RV campgrounds if you ever take a trip. For your 240v extension cable I'd be inclined to go with a NEMA L6-20 connector at each end, and then make an adapter to mate with the Amazing-E.

Edit: To put the Neutral pin on the Amazing-E discussion to bed, why don't you buy a couple of connectors (10-30P and 14-50R) and make a jumper cable and simply plug the Amazing-E into your dryer outlet? Some of the 14-50 receptacles I've purchased are configurable to accept either 14-50 or 14-30. That jumper cable will come in handy in the future if you want to charge at someone's house using their dryer outlet.

 

[Don]

'Dilemma' is certain;y the operative word - You have problems on top of problems on top of problems, not the least of which is that extension cord laying over the public sidewalk - You've got some trenching to do

Assuming you can get space to install a new double 20 amp breaker, Joe's solution is the simplest and cheapest. If you intend to 'future proof' and run a 30 or 40 amp service, you're going to need to upgrade to a 200 amp service - With the A/C, dryer, water heater? and other loads, you've pretty well maxxed out that 100 amp panel and no doubt you probably need a larger gauge drop from the pole too

My solution? Pour a driveway and build a garage onto the house! :lol:

Don

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

Edit: To put the Neutral pin on the Amazing-E discussion to bed, why don't you buy a couple of connectors (10-30P and 14-50R) and make a jumper cable and simply plug the Amazing-E into your dryer outlet? Some of the 14-50 receptacles I've purchased are configurable to accept either 14-50 or 14-30. That jumper cable will come in handy in the future if you want to charge at someone's house using their dryer outlet.

The reason the Amazing-E can't be plugged into the dryer outlet is because the car is 90 feet away.

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

Y Heck, you probably have a 240v source at that aircon unit ...

I knew the video was a good idea! I have not used the A/C since I got it. It came with the new HVAC system and there was no option to leave it off so I got it installed in case I moved and the next person wanted it. I have no returns on the 2nd floor and no good places to run them in this small house. I have a whole house fan I designed myself that turns over the air every 5 minutes and is on a thermostat and I love outside air and don't mind the heat too much. The only benefit to the A/C unit is that the local power company gives me about $80 a year to have that device on it which shuts it off at peak usage times in the summer. So I could hardly wait to get home and check out that A/C wiring. It comes out of the house in plastic flex conduit to a box that has a thing in it you can pull out that says "on/off" - a rudimentary switch. Then out of that box to the A/C unit. The power company switch is on a separate line to the A/C unit and doesn't interfere with the line from the house. I backed out a screw ring holding the flexible conduit and there were 3 beautiful wires. I think all I need to do is remove the wires from the A/C unit and bend the conduit toward the car and mount a box of some kind with a connector. At the main panel there is a dual breaker, so just replace that with 20A breakers. I may just buy one double 20A breaker because I already have one 20A regular size breaker. This will net me one empty 20A breaker in my panel or two if I use another double type. So my thinking is that I can easily do all of this myself at this point. And the line to the car can be the 50 foot 10 gauge cord I have in the back yard with new connectors. So total parts will be:
One double breaker
One outdoor box - maybe the dual kind like this https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-70-Amp-P ... /100137294
Connectors and wire for an adapter at the EVSE.
No electrician or codes to worry about.
Sounds really good.

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

'Dilemma' is certain;y the operative word - You have problems on top of problems on top of problems, not the least of which is that extension cord laying over the public sidewalk - You've got some trenching to do

Assuming you can get space to install a new double 20 amp breaker, Joe's solution is the simplest and cheapest. If you intend to 'future proof' and run a 30 or 40 amp service, you're going to need to upgrade to a 200 amp service - With the A/C, dryer, water heater? and other loads, you've pretty well maxxed out that 100 amp panel and no doubt you probably need a larger gauge drop from the pole too

My solution? Pour a driveway and build a garage onto the house! :lol:

Don

I have no problems! This a major green town and in full support of everything like that. I've had it charging for months with the cord laying across the back alley and the car parked in the bar association parking lot. I'm an 18 year good citizen and tied in with all the hippies here and am pretty sure I would have heard about it by now if someone was going to say something. I've thought about going under the sidewalk but that just may cause more trouble than staying above it because even tho I'm responsible for repairs to the sidewalk, its kind of city property from the beginning of the sidewalk to the street and that small section between the sidewalk and curb. I think they might have a bigger issue with me tunneling under that plus its black pavement in the spot between the sidewalk and curb so opening it up would create another hole (trip hazard) and pool for water and erosion. Plus it is mostly only there after all the tourists leave for the day and only my neighbors are here, and I move the cord onto my property when I leave at 630AM most days and every time I leave in the car. Plus I'm on the end so not much foot traffic there. Having a wire permanently under the sidewalk and sitting there while my car was NOT there would be a red flag for sure.

Media is the first fair trade town in the USA, has 9 public buildings full of solar, is a transition town (with time bank) and lots of hippies. In fact, one of my close friends and handyman who has done a lot of work on my house is called "The Hippie". http://visitmediapa.com/fairtrade

 

[JoeS]

Edit: To put the Neutral pin on the Amazing-E discussion to bed, why don't you buy a couple of connectors (10-30P and 14-50R) and make a jumper cable and simply plug the Amazing-E into your dryer outlet? Some of the 14-50 receptacles I've purchased are configurable to accept either 14-50 or 14-30. That jumper cable will come in handy in the future if you want to charge at someone's house using their dryer outlet.

The reason the Amazing-E can't be plugged into the dryer outlet is because the car is 90 feet away.

I understand the location relative to your car. I am simply asking you to plug in the Amazing-E into the three-wire 10-30 outlet to ensure it lights up and does not throw a ground-fault error. No need to plug it into the car.

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

Edit: To put the Neutral pin on the Amazing-E discussion to bed, why don't you buy a couple of connectors (10-30P and 14-50R) and make a jumper cable and simply plug the Amazing-E into your dryer outlet? Some of the 14-50 receptacles I've purchased are configurable to accept either 14-50 or 14-30. That jumper cable will come in handy in the future if you want to charge at someone's house using their dryer outlet.

The reason the Amazing-E can't be plugged into the dryer outlet is because the car is 90 feet away.

I understand the location relative to your car. I am simply asking you to plug in the Amazing-E into the three-wire 10-30 outlet to ensure it lights up and does not throw a ground-fault error. No need to plug it into the car.

Oh I see! Good idea. I actually already have a 14-30 receptacle and a 10-30 dryer plug and cord at home so I can do that tonight. Thanks!

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

With the A/C, dryer, water heater? and other loads, you've pretty well maxxed out that 100 amp panel and no doubt you probably need a larger gauge drop from the pole too
Don

No, the water heater is gas and I'm never running A/C and no other major load at all. All low wattage light bulbs, gas range. The only other draw in the house is a toaster oven. So I'm really comfortable with the load on the panel. In fact, the gas water heater is 9 years old. A good brand (Bradford White) but near end of life for sure. I've been considering electric instant hot water instead. So removing the A/C breaker and knowing that the car only draws 13.75A, I'm very comfortable adding back in another 30A breaker for hot water, which is so cool because the panel upgrade was a major issue in the hot water consideration. And the panel has a 100A breaker on it so if it gets overloaded I'll know right? But I doubt that would ever happen. I think everything in the house would have to be on at the same time and I don't even think that would do it even with the future 30A hot water.

Also, I don't think I would need a new wire for 200A. I think I remember when we did the 100A panel that I was good to go on that. I would want to do the ground rod tho for sure. I'm still considering a panel upgrade at some point but not until I'm pushed by something. Or I may just do it myself some day. I know how to do it because I did it with my ex-brother in law for the 100A. I would just rather pay for it and get the ground thing done at the same time if I can get the friend electrician rate.