240V Charging and Extension cables (Amazing-E)

[bradleydavidgood777]

My 100Amp main box is full so I would need a sub box or a new 200Amp box which I know is expensive.

Code will probably not allow an additional sub-box. If you upgrade your main panel to 200A, then go ahead and run the conduit and put in a NEMA 14-50 outlet, as this will future-proof you for your next EV. The increase in hardware cost over a 14-30 should be minimal, and the labor is the same.

Without getting into a grounding discussion, just note that Neutral and Ground are tied together at your house power input panel. EVSEs typically do not use Neutral or Ground for carrying any current.

The i-MiEV does NOT draw 16A at 240vac, no matter what the EVSE is capable of. I think the most I ever saw was 13A using my 40A E-Motor Werks EVSE with my i-MiEV.

If you're going for low cost, then the EVSE Don bought for his Volt for under $200 would be my preference; nevertheless, I'd be inclined to buy something that could provide 24A or 32A or even higher for your next EV. I talked my brother-in-law into getting this 32A (adjustable and 120vac/240vac) EVSE for his BoltEV, and it will handle just about any situation on the road:
https://www.evseadapters.com/collec.../products/16-30a-adjustable-120-240v-charger-evse

Yes I have been thinking about it this afternoon and I came to the same conclusion. Upgrade the panel to 200A and run heavy wire to the NEMA 14-50 outlet on the outside of the house. Then buy a good RV cable to future proof everything...for me and also another EV that may come to my house.

I already have the AmazingE in my possession. I've had it since I've owned the car and just haven't gotten around to figuring out what I wanted where and getting it done. I'm actually glad about that because I may have done something in the back and now I like the front much more for several reasons.

So if I understand correctly, I'm asking the electrician to upgrade the panel to 200A. Then run a standard gauge cable thru the basement about 35 feet and thru the brick to the outside to a NEMA 14-50 outlet on the outside of the house (in some nice snow/ice/waterproof box) and I don't need additional breakers since I will be using RV cable. Then it's another 35-40 feet to the car with RV cable. So that's what I need to understand - do I run 30A RV cable and that's good enough future proof? And will the breakers at the main box be 30A to match the RV cable? And the cable from the main to the 14-50 outlet of course would handle 30A also. Or should all cables and breakers be rated for 50A? I think Tesla draws 40A right? And it may be wired for 50A but I can't remember for sure.

Oh, and about the i-miev and how much it draws. Yes I'm understanding it is 13.75A not 16. But with the level 2 charger I'm going to get a full charge in about 6 hours right? Now it takes 16 hours on level 1 set on 12A.

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

Without getting into a grounding discussion, just note that Neutral and Ground are tied together at your house power input panel. EVSEs typically do not use Neutral or Ground for carrying any current.

Not only are they tied together, they are also tied to an 8 foot copper clad ground rod driven into the ground just below the power panel where utility power enters your house, so whenever you tie to either neutral or ground, you're getting an earth ground. The neutral wire is also grounded at most power (telephone) poles, which is why it can be an uninsulated wire coming to your house - Neutral *is* grounded in so many places

Don

I don't have that 8 foot rod in the ground. I checked the other day. The utility wire comes down the house and into the meter and then right into the house. No other wire and no rod. Just a jumper from the main box to the half inch copper water pipe. So I think I need that rod installed with the upgraded box.

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

I did some searching for RV cords last night and realized that the 50 Amp cords are the only ones with the 14-50 connectors (of course).

So my plan is:
Upgrade the panel to 200A. Or at least talk about the options. Several 120 breakers in my box could be changed to those half size ones.
Add an earth ground 8 foot copper rod at the main box.
6 AWG cable thru the basement about 35 feet and thru the brick to the outside to a NEMA 14-50 outlet on the outside of the house (in some nice snow/ice/waterproof box) and I don't need additional breakers since I will be using RV cable.
35-40 feet RV cable (50 Amp) to the car.
AmazingE EVSE with adapter or new 14-50 plug.
Add a 120V outlet thru the same hole for the front of the house use and backup 120V charging. I've seen boxes with a combo of 14-50 and 120V and they use just the 50 Amp cable - one leg of that is used for the 120V. So that would be nice. And they come with breakers at the box which is nice because I can then kill the power in the cable when not in use.

So, any additional thoughts or considerations?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Don]

'Future proofing' your home / garage for an EV which might need a 40 or 50 amp EVSE one day down the road is certainly something to consider . . . . *IF* you think there's a likely hood of you ever buying a car like that while you're living there. In your case, what you're looking at (replacing your existing panel with a 200 amp main and running 6 gauge wire where you would want it, so you can hook up 6 gauge extension cords to it) is very likely to cost you in the neighborhood of $2K - IMO, you better be pretty sure you're one day going to buy that big battery EV

Right now you have an EV which can't draw any more than 13 amps, and you could probably do a pretty professional job of setting up what you need to charge it for $250 or so

So - Is it $2K for what might happen in the future . . . . or $250 for what you currently need?

I own 3 EV's and have been at this for 6 years now and am still not using anything other than 12 gauge wire in my garage. 3 EVSE's, all on 12 gauge wire. For me, a big battery EV isn't the answer to ANY of my driving needs and I very much doubt I'll ever own one

Don

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

Thanks Don,

If it was $2k I don't think I would do it. I have two electricians to talk to who are friends of friends so I don't expect to pay near full regular cost. But have not talked to them yet so we will see. There are other reasons to upgrade the panel like the fact that it is full and I'm not sure I can switch out some of the breakers for half size breakers and get some room. Plus if I add anything else in the future, I would have more room. I do plan on staying at the house for a long time.

With the panel full, if I can't make any room, I don't know what the cheaper option would be because I can't use the dryer outlet so I need a new run to the front of the house and from what I understand that's going to take up the space of two breakers in the box. I'm going to discuss other options tho and if it could be done for cheaper than I'm totally open to that. But I don't know if I fully understand how that cheaper option would be wired and what connectors to use all the way and still have the AmazingE happy with the ground. Seems to me that I would need a 4 wire cable running thru the front yard for that to happen. I only know of one type which is 50Amp RV cable. So then that has a 14-50 plug. I'm not sure about electricians wiring a 14-50 plug with less than 50 Amp cable due to codes. Maybe there is another 4 wire outdoor cord that I don't know of.

So what about this for cheaper. If I can free up 1 breaker spot by installing half size breakers in my current box, could I then install a dual half size breaker in the open spot (dual 20 Amp). Is there really a limit to the amount of Amps that can run thru a "100A box" before it becomes unsafe? Then from there, run 12/3 wire (which is 4 wires including the ground, right) 35 feet thru the basement and to the outside and wire that to a 14-50 receptacle? then 14-50 cable to the car? And maybe I can use one leg of that to power a 120V outlet in the same box outside (I've seen boxes with both 14-50 and 120V wired this way).

Seems like that would work to me but I'm no electrician.

 

[JoeS]

Ouch, I had written the following before seeing the response, so I'll throw it in here, and I see we're pretty much on the same page -

Although I've usually tried to plan ahead and future-proof things, there is a lot of merit to what Don says, so let's see what happens if we try for low-cost i-MiEV charging using existing equipment and not pursue expansion of the input service panel to 200A.

Reviewing the situation -

bradleydavidgood777 has an Amazing-E EVSE which is 240vac 16A and has a four-prong NEMA 14-30 plug. He has a fully-populated 100A input service panel, but has the possibility of doubling up circuit breakers with smaller ones. The routing sounds as though first a ~35ft cable/conduit? needs to be run from the service panel through the basement and through the brick to provide a weatherproof outlet on the outside of the house. From there to the car is another 40ft which would be handled with a long extension cord. Even though it's probably unnecessary, the desire is to run four wires (hot-hot-ground-neutral) to the EVSE.

Talking out loud and from a least-cost perspective to get a 240vac 20A circuit to the i-MiEV, let me put this on the table, ignoring code constraints (that's the electrician's domain) -

Double-up existing circuit breakers with smaller 20A circuit breakers and bring out a 20A four-wire line from there, run it through the basement, and terminate it on the side of the house with a weatherproof 14-20 receptacle (might also pair it with a 5-15 or 5-20 outlet off that line in the same place if code allows). Then, a four-wire 50ft (#10AWG?) extension cord with a 14-20 plug on one end and 14-20 socket on the other end and then make a separate adapter consisting of 14-30R on one end and 14-20P on the other end to mate with the Amazing-E. Alternatively, forget the adapter and bend the rules further since this cable will be dedicated to the 16A Amazing-E and simply put a 14-30R onto the extension cord that the EVSE plugs into.

Like I said, code constraints may well preclude some or most of the above.

Further confusing the issue, bradleydavidgood77, you keep interjecting the NEMA 10-50 connector. I don't understand this, as it is a three-wire and not a four-wire connector and I thought you said that the Amazing-E requires four wires? A 50A RV cable normally has NEMA 14-50 terminations.
https://www.amazon.com/Camco-Extension-PowerGrip-Convenient-Carrying/dp/B002XL2IG8

 

[Don]

Ouch indeed! - What a mess!

I went to the Amazing E website and read their literature - Not sure what I would call their product, but the word 'Amazing' wouldn't be included, for sure

This is the first EVSE that I'm aware of that requires 4 wires to operate - I've never seen any others that come with anything other than a 3 pin plug. Rather than have to custom rewire my house just to support their 4 wire requirement, I would certainly buy something else. It's a shame you're now stuck with this thing that can't operate from your 3 wire dryer plug, like virtually any other EVSE can

IMO, if you can sell it and get most or all of your money back and buy something that can operate from your current dryer plug, that would be your best and certainly your cheapest option. I would buy a small box which can support a double 20 amp circuit breaker (or a pair of 20 amp cartridge fuses) and have your electrician tap off your existing dryer plug for power. You could not charge and run the dryer at the same time or you would trip your dryer 30 amp breaker, but other than that restriction, you would be safe and I think probably legal too. If it isn't legal, a simple transfer switch before the dryer outlet which would make it impossible to energize both loads at the same time would solve the 'legal issues'

Switching from a 100 amp to a 200 amp panel will probably require the power company to upgrade the wire size running from the pole to your house. You will for sure have to replace the pipe that runs from the panel through the roof to a larger one which can handle the larger wire sizes required to support a 200 amp panel. And remember, you cannot run a 6/3 wire to your new outlet like you would ordinarily do - Your 'Amazing' E requires 4 wires. A 40 foot piece of 6/3 with ground will be expensive and it may have to be installed in conduit. Even if your friendly electrician donates much of his time, this is going to be an expensive operation - Well worth doing if you have an older home and plan to stay in it for many years, but it won't be cheap . . . . all because someone invented an EVSE that requires 4 wires

Don

 

[veimi]

I just came across this thread and was curious about some of the comments.

At the following link

http://300mpg.org/2017/09/02/amazing-e-evse-review-and-opening/

I learned that the EVSE doesn't use the ground lead and that it may be cut off making the device compatible with both interfaces.

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

Thanks Veimi,

I forgot about that but now that I saw it again I realized that I had read that before. The problem is that Ben states that the manual says it is not used but my manual and the one online says that it will produce a fault condition if the ground is not present (Page 10 of the manual https://amazing-e.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/AmazingE-User-Manual-20170602.pdf).

 

[veimi]

I was incorrect. After taking the device apart they discovered that the Neutral was not connected and the Neutral pin may be removed to make the device compatible for both interfaces.

The Neutral on the 14-30 and 14-50 are different shapes which means when the Neutral pin is removed, the EVSE may be plugged into either connector.

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

Thank you Joe and Don,

I am considering both options. And considering selling the AmazingE that may not be so amazing. Since the ground issue, I agree, is a problem.

So then what EVSE would I buy? The Chinese one on ebay?

And what outdoor cord would I use? 30A RV cord or is there something else?

The Don dryer option:
I like the dryer option of putting a transfer switch before the dryer. Then I could effectively "turn off" the cable to the outside near the car for safety because it could deliver a good shock to a child. But the dryer is in the back of the house so this would add another 35-40 feet to the outdoor cable making it about 80 feet. So the transfer switch would go before the dryer, then from the transfer switch, one leg goes to the dryer, and one to a new box with a pair of 20A fuses or breakers. Then out of that box could I just run the outdoor cable thru the wall? This would eliminate the need for an outdoor box. The other benefit of this option is that the wall to the outside is just wallboard not thick brick like the front of the house option.

The Joe panel option:
I already have 2 slots with dual 20A breakers for a total of (4) 20A breakers that are half sized. So basically 2 extra breakers than normal in the panel. I would really only be adding 13.75A to the panel so if you think about it that way it seems like it is not a big deal. So I could double up (4) 15A breakers leaving me 2 open slots. I already have one 20A breaker sitting around so I would only need to buy 1 more. Then I would need about 35 feet of 12/3 wire to the outside box. And I would have to drill thru two layers of brick - but I have the drill and bits brand new. Would I need outdoor wire since it is going out to the box? Because I don't see that in anything less than 250 feet. I do see regular 12/3 in 50 feet. Or could I use regular 12/2 wire if I don't need a ground? Because I already have that. As far as the outdoor box goes, something like this would be nice because I get the 120 GFCI as a bonus on the front of the house for other stuff. https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-70-Amp-Power-Outlet-Box-with-Duplex-20-Amp-GFCI-Outlet-and-Single-30-Amp-Outlet-U041GP/100137294
And this option means a shorter outdoor cord of about 40 feet.

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

I was incorrect. After taking the device apart they discovered that the Neutral was not connected and the Neutral pin may be removed to make the device compatible for both interfaces.

The Neutral on the 14-30 and 14-50 are different shapes which means when the Neutral pin is removed, the EVSE may be plugged into either connector.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "I was incorrect". I thought that's what you said in the first post.

 

[veimi]

In my first post I said that the GROUND pin could be removed. This is incorrect.

It turns out that the NEUTRAL pin is the only difference between the 14-30 and 14-50 connectors. Removing the UNUSED NEUTRAL pin on the EVSE will allow the plug to be compatible with both the 14-30 and 14-50 sockets.

 

[Don]

Your Amazing E should work on your 10-30P 3 prong dryer outlet because . . . . neutral is grounded, or it should be

You can charge from any two 120 volt household outlets *if* the outlets are on different phases. Lots of people charge L2 using this method. Two standard 120 volt extension cords (must be 12/3 cords) go into a box with a 240 volt socket mounted on it. Cut the socket ends off the cords and wire as follows:

The hot wire from each of the cords goes to the hot legs on the 240 volt outlet one wire to each leg, the ground wires on each cord both go to the ground screw on the 240 volt outlet. The neutral wires from the two cords are not used - Put a twist connector on those wires so they can't touch anything. Plug in both cords an you'll have 240 volts at the socket on the box

You can use an ordinary extension cord to 'test' to see if you have 2 compatible outlets. Plug the cord into one outlet, measure between the hot socket pin on the cord and the hot socket pin on the second outlet - If they're on the same phase, you'll measure zero volts. If they're on different phases, you'll have 240 volts. Plug your two cords (12/3 cords) into those outlets and your EVSE into the socket on the box and you're good to go

Maybe you can find outlets closer to the car this way?

Don

 

[veimi]

I am hoping this link will appear properly which illustrates the differences between the various connectors mentioned.

It appears that cutting off the EVSE NEUTRAL pin will make the EVSE compatible with the NEW DRYER socket.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=10-30+dryer&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA695CA695&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi-tsr63tHaAhWh4IMKHXhTBUgQ_AUoAnoECAAQBA&biw=1093&bih=510#imgrc=biAlr2Thw-ftiM:

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

In my first post I said that the GROUND pin could be removed. This is incorrect.

It turns out that the NEUTRAL pin is the only difference between the 14-30 and 14-50 connectors. Removing the UNUSED NEUTRAL pin on the EVSE will allow the plug to be compatible with both the 14-30 and 14-50 sockets.

Ah yes, my bad - was not reading correctly. That is an excellent point! Thank you!

 

[veimi]

Another link from Google images.

http://www.evbasestation.com/product/new-female-14-30r-4-prong-receptacle-to-old-male-10-50p-3-pin-plug-range-stove-oven-dryer-adapter-220-home-appliance-power-cord-wire-converter-50a-125250v-getwiredusa-fx363/

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

Your Amazing E should work on your 10-30P 3 prong dryer outlet because . . . . neutral is grounded, or it should be

You can charge from any two 120 volt household outlets *if* the outlets are on different phases. Lots of people charge L2 using this method. Two standard 120 volt extension cords (must be 12/3 cords) go into a box with a 240 volt socket mounted on it. Cut the socket ends off the cords and wire as follows:

The hot wire from each of the cords goes to the hot legs on the 240 volt outlet one wire to each leg, the ground wires on each cord both go to the ground screw on the 240 volt outlet. The neutral wires from the two cords are not used - Put a twist connector on those wires so they can't touch anything. Plug in both cords an you'll have 240 volts at the socket on the box

You can use an ordinary extension cord to 'test' to see if you have 2 compatible outlets. Plug the cord into one outlet, measure between the hot socket pin on the cord and the hot socket pin on the second outlet - If they're on the same phase, you'll measure zero volts. If they're on different phases, you'll have 240 volts. Plug your two cords (12/3 cords) into those outlets and your EVSE into the socket on the box and you're good to go

Maybe you can find outlets closer to the car this way?

Don

Thanks Don,

That is an interesting option but I don't have any outlets near the car. Just one out back.

 

[bradleydavidgood777]

I am hoping this link will appear properly which illustrates the differences between the various connectors mentioned.

It appears that cutting off the EVSE NEUTRAL pin will make the EVSE compatible with the NEW DRYER socket.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=10-30+dryer&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA695CA695&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi-tsr63tHaAhWh4IMKHXhTBUgQ_AUoAnoECAAQBA&biw=1093&bih=510#imgrc=biAlr2Thw-ftiM:

Thanks.

The AmazingE with the neutral pin kept on is already compatible with the new dryer plug (4 pin 14-30).

The problem is, I have the old 3 pin dryer socket and it's 10-30. Plus even if I had the new dryer socket my car is 80 feet away and the EVSE cord is 18 feet.

 

[wmcbrine]

That's a good idea about removing the ground.

I said NEUTRAL, not GROUND.