Even the Tesla Model S....

...isn't perfect.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...del-s-seven-little-things-a-buyer-doesnt-like

At least we get 'creep-mode' with the ability to turn it off (via the brake pedal), some control over the regen and the choice of drive modes. None of these are available on the Model S for $50,000 grand more.

Interesting.

Hey MLucas. Did you get a chance to test-drive the Tesla S? I work for a company that gets to test-drive vehicles and this model was definitely fast, but I don't know if I would describe it as "fun." Thoughts? As far as electric cars go, it did make it from 0 to 60 very quickly.

I reasoned that if an i costs around $30,000 and a Leaf costs around $35,000, is $50,000 for a Tesla S with a 40 kWh battery pack and almost twice the range of the others really that bad? Then I read that it weighs 4,600 pounds, almost twice as much as an i. Just pushing that much weight around reduces range, increases operating costs, and reduces performance. If it weighed less, it wouldn't need such a large battery pack to maintain the same range. It needs to go on a serious diet, but then it would lose its luxury items.

The Tesla X, another heavyweight SUV, will suffer from a worse weight problem. But Tesla seems to be going for affluent customers who don't care about driving overweight vehicles.

I would prefer a basic aerodynamic 4-passenger hatchback with a lightweight aluminum or carbon fiber chassis and a large enough battery pack for a 100+ mile range. I would think that something like this could be mass-produced and sold for no more than a Tesla S. But most people would still consider such a car to be too expensive, so Tesla is adding heavy luxury to make its prices more palatable to affluent customers.

Nevertheless, I hope Tesla succeeds. We need as many successful mass-produced EV's as possible.

Funny, the iMiev seems to beat the Tesla in those 7 categories, for a lot less money. OK, we don't have the range, but we didn't pay for it.

I used to have a Ford Crown Vic, and honestly, it was no easier to get in and out of than my iMiev. Sure it had more room around your feet, butt and shoulders, but to me that's not a shortcoming.

When I had a front passenger in my Crown Vic, they had their knees right in the dash. In the iMiev, it doesn't seem as much of an issue when my passenger swings his legs to get in and out.

alohart said:

Then I read that it weighs 4,600 pounds, almost twice as much as an i. Just pushing that much weight around reduces range, increases operating costs, and reduces performance. If it weighed less, it wouldn't need such a large battery pack to maintain the same range. It needs to go on a serious diet, but then it would lose its luxury items.

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The same is true of any good sports car - Weight is the key and if you can keep that down you can have a really super handling car

But then someone decides they need a 3.5 second zero to 60 time, so it gets a heavier, more powerful engine, coupled with bigger brakes and tires to slow it back down and then every part of the frame and suspension needs to be beefed up. The next thing you know, you've turned a 2500 pound 240Z into a 3600 pound 350Z that no longer handles worth a darn

If a 75 mile range EV works for your needs, that's probably what you should buy. If you really need a 250 mile range, it's going to cost you - Both in the upfront price, the insurance for the car and in the everyday operating expenses. Unfortunately, too many of us think that if a car can't go 300 miles, then it's next to worthless . . . . we see those types filling up at the gas station everyday, as we drive by :lol:

Don

I sat in and poked around a Tesla Model S demo'd at a recent Electric Auto Association event. Lovely and spacious car, especially if you like sedans. Its Cd=0.24 is only bested by the EV1 (0.195) and the 1935 Tatra (0.212). I'm delighted it's in production, and wish them well, even if it's not my cup of tea. Let's see how our iMiEV handles this article's author's gripes -

1. No 'Creep' Mode. Having driven stick-shifts all my life, I can take it or leave it, although I must say I've become used to our iMiEV's creep mode, especially when backing up.

2. It's Hard to Get In and Out. Score one for the iMiEV. I recently drove a 97-year-old who praised this iMiEV feature.

3. Regenerative Braking Settings Awkward to Change. This was the main feature I was interested in during my first test drive of the iMiEV, and I was not disappointed. When I probed the techie during the Tesla demo I was saddened to see that regeneration had barely been addressed by Tesla … allegedly to not deviate too far from an existing ICE driving experience. Hopefully they'll provide programming and a paddle control in the future, and with such a low Cd zero regen (coasting) would offer a marvelous range-extending capability.

4. Charge Port Location Inconvenient. On the S, it's hidden under the left taillight lens. I disagree with this assessment, as for my iMiEV I've located my EVSE 3' from our right charge port so my cable is super-short and never touches the ground. The Tesla's EVSE can also be located close to the charge port, but not as close as our iMiEV because room needs to be left for the driver's door to open whereas I park right next to the right wall. Nevertheless, better, IMO, than the Leaf. Hey, we simply back-in to public EVSEs, which is what I usually do in parking lots anyway.

5. Turn-signal lever badly placed. Mercedes supplied the whole assembly, and I thought they were tops in ergonomics. Nothing wrong with our iMiEV's, although the mandatory three flashes when one taps the stalk do bug me - one can get this programming changed but I haven't asked.

6. No Eco and/or Sport Modes. We've got Eco and I use B if I want to be sporty. The Honda FitEV really has the Sport Mode nailed.

7. State-of-Charge indicator not delineated. Well, we have a sixteen-bar 'fuel' gauge, but I agree with the author that a simple % SOC numeric readout would be preferable.

Tesla is just getting started and I'm sure they'll get around to refining things once they get rolling and have some cash coming in. I really do wish them well.

Weight is not nearly as big a problem as is aerodynamic drag. The i MiEV is Cd 0.35-0.36 and the Model S is 0.24.

EV's have a much smaller penalty for weight than ICE's -- electric motors are only losing 10-20% of the energy, while ICE's lose 70-80%, in acceleration in particular. EV's can coast without idling - and they have regenerative braking for when you need to slow down, so you can regain the kinetic energy in two ways.

Aerodynamic drag is a total loss -- and it is very often 50-75% of the load; so it is more important than weight.

I think we should all be rooting for Tesla to succeed. It's not as if Tesla will be stealing customers from Mitsu. Anyone who spends $60k and up wouldn't even consider the MiEV. I think Tesla is doing something smart, they are overcoming range anxiety by performance and they are overcoming price anxiety by marketing to folks who don't worry about price - they care more about the envy factor. And if the car takes off, economies of scale will make batteries cheaper for all ev's and will then make all ev's cheaper. Win win.

Besides that, Tesla got a ton of taxpayer money. They damn well better be able to pay it back!

TaylorC said:

Hey MLucas. Did you get a chance to test-drive the Tesla S? I work for a company that gets to test-drive vehicles and this model was definitely fast, but I don't know if I would describe it as "fun." Thoughts? As far as electric cars go, it did make it from 0 to 60 very quickly.

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Lucky you! Sounds like a nice job. Sadly, no - I've never been able to drive a Model S. I would like to, though - maybe one day.

I too also would like them to succeed. All I care about is electric vehicles and I know each one succeeds in its own market very well. They each have their uniqueness and fill specific needs for specific buyers. I don't think anyone of them is any better than the other. We really do have a nice array of electric cars to choose from. My point of posting this article was not to put Tesla in a bad light, I just wanted to note that our MiEVs are very well engineered and the money put into the car was put into the right places. After four months of ownership, and 10k kilometers - I am very happy with my decisions to buy the Mitsubishi i.

I get tired of the negative i Miev press and like to see that we aren't much different than any of the other offerings out there.

Creep Mode "update".
It was announced on Sept 11 that Tesla would offer a remote software update to its Model S owners. (Prior to most of the comments posted about the initial report.) The update will allow them to enable creep or leave it disabled.

I think that is great customer support. If I had the extra cash, I would consider buying a Tesla. But the $600 yearly service contract is a deterrent. $50 a month would buy a lot of gas when looking at the car from an ecomonical break-even point-of-view and not looking at the environmental aspects.

But I'm still thinking about making a bumper sticker for the i-MiEV that says...
"WHEN I HATCH, I WANT TO BE A TESLA"

Brian said:

But I'm still thinking about making a bumper sticker for the i-MiEV that says...
"WHEN I HATCH, I WANT TO BE A TESLA"

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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Brian, I'm afraid I couldn't resist and borrowed your idea (I hope you don't mind):



While I was at it, thought I'd decorate the front as well:

Too cute Joe..... But I still want one

I didn't get to drive the Tesla, but I did sit in it. My question, what's the point? Its a big comfortable high performance car that feels like a tank. You can't even shift. You can never justify a car like this just for transport either on an ecological or an economical basis. And I don't think it gives much driver feel. In contrast, as soon as you sit in the miev, you just get a good feeling. Its a fun car to drive. That's why I lost interest in the LEAF and Volt (which in many ways are a better buy). Call me crazy, if I had the money to but a Tesla, I'd buy the miev. No, I wouldn't want to hatch into a Tesla. By the way, this is of course subjective, but I think the styling on the Tesla Roadster is just awful.
Actually, little off topic....
Morgan motors and Toyota are experimenting with a manual transmission electric car. I've seen a lot of stuff on this. Some say its good, others a waste of time. From my standpoint, the miev is almost perfect, except I miss by New Beetle 5 speed. Any thoughts?

marlon said:

I didn't get to drive the Tesla, but I did sit in it. My question, what's the point? Its a big comfortable high performance car that feels like a tank. You can't even shift. You can never justify a car like this just for transport either on an ecological or an economical basis. And I don't think it gives much driver feel. In contrast, as soon as you sit in the miev, you just get a good feeling. Its a fun car to drive. That's why I lost interest in the LEAF and Volt (which in many ways are a better buy). Call me crazy, if I had the money to but a Tesla, I'd buy the miev. No, I wouldn't want to hatch into a Tesla. By the way, this is of course subjective, but I think the styling on the Tesla Roadster is just awful.
Actually, little off topic....
Morgan motors and Toyota are experimenting with a manual transmission electric car. I've seen a lot of stuff on this. Some say its good, others a waste of time. From my standpoint, the miev is almost perfect, except I miss by New Beetle 5 speed. Any thoughts?

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+1. I've owned one near luxury car, and all the worrying about getting it scratched or driving it too much was not worth the hassle. I like the concept of the Tesla Model S, but I'd have to have an awful lot of money so that $80k wouldn't mean a whole lot to me. I too drove the Leaf and was not as impressed as I was with the I. Mitsubishi got it right, too bad they are getting panned for it.

Aw, you guys had to go and pop my balloon. That phrase had somehow struck my funnybone (and my wife actually 'allowed' me to put it onto 'her' car), but I didn't think of the larger implications of this.

I also have never ever been interested in owning a luxury car (well, maybe the Maserati-powered Citroen SM when I was younger), and the closest I ever came was a 1966 Lancia Flavia Vignale convertible which to this day was the smoothest-running long-distance car I've ever owned.

Tesla is based here in the SF Bay Area and I'm a moral supporter of them, even though I have no desire to own their Model S. I'm hoping that downstream Tesla will develop an ultra-aerodynamic two-seater that would then become our long-distance car. BTW, there seems to be a significant difference between Tesla Roadster and Tesla Model S owners: the roadster guys and I exchange a friendly wave when I'm driving either my iMiEV or Corbin Sparrow, whereas the Model S drivers seem to be snootily clueless.

Philosophically, I agree with both the comments that marion and MLucas made, and if y'all will recall I referred to the Leaf as unnecessarily large and opulent. I put my money where my mouth and heart is and, after over 11,000 miles, am really really happy we bought the iMiEV and certainly would not trade it for a Tesla Model S.

So, now the dilemma: my When I hatch - I want to be a Tesla bumper sticker has already drawn a lot of smiles and friendly comments, but it never occurred to me that they might be derisive. In light of that damn damning CR review (which a lot of my friends have already read and jabbed me with), should I take the sticker off?

JoeS said:

In light of that damn damning CR review (which a lot of my friends have already read and jabbed me with), should I take the sticker off?

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Leave it on. Calling the i-MiEV a "baby Tesla" or "Tesla egg" is a high compliment in my book and draws parallels between the two vehicles.

An unfortunate test drive result for the Tesla S. Not even the Tesla S is immune from the significant loss of range in cold driving conditions. I'm surprised that such an expensive car doesn't include a fossil-fuel-powered auxiliary heater to minimize the loss of cold weather range and to keep the interior comfortable in cold weather.

Hi,

That's an interesting story. It is kind of funny to see a top of the line Electric with a big support infrastructure come up against the same problems that we do in our little iMievs (like cold feet).

It does make sense because both of these cars are rooted in the exact same technology and have the same hurdles to overcome. It's just that the Model S is being compared to ICE cars. The expectation is that it can do the same mission.

That being said if you look at a base model S the 40 kw battery gets an estimated 160 miles. Lets take away 20 percent for very cold weather -10 to -15 Deg C and another 25 % for heating. Which is probably reasonable.

That would leave us with 88 real world miles of non-performance driving in cold weather or 140 KM. Still much more then an iMiev in the cold but not enough to do long inter-city highway commutes.

If for example you did do a Montreal to Quebec city run in the winter at -15 Deg C (about 300 KM) you would need an L2/30 amp fill up (the defacto standard L2 around here) of 7 hours to refill the battery mid way.

If you use the Sun Country 90 Amp charger in Three rivers (Trois Rivière about half the way there) you would still be limited to 10 KW onboard in the base model or about 4.5 hours.

It would take about 7.5-10 hours to do the 300 Km total time. About 2.5-3. times the time of a ICE car. But it's doable which is nice.

In my book that would really limit the base battery size model S to an mostly urban car. Sort of the same misson that an iMiev can do only with a bigger reserve range.

I think when the quick chargers start showing up the range playing field will start leveling.

Don....

marlon said:

Morgan motors and Toyota are experimenting with a manual transmission electric car. I've seen a lot of stuff on this. Some say its good, others a waste of time. From my standpoint, the miev is almost perfect, except I miss by New Beetle 5 speed. Any thoughts?

Click to expand...

I miss the 5 speed in my other cars too, but a manual trans EV is kinda taking a big step backward. Transmissions are useless pieces of machinery only made necessary due to the incompatibility of using piston engines to power vehicles which must operate from zero to some maximum speed . . . . because the ICE doesn't make any torque at stall which is where you need it to get the vehicle moving. The beauty of electric motors (and steam engines also) is they have lots of torque at stall and a wide torque band which makes transmissions pretty much unnecessary

Many DC drive EV conversions do use a transmission, but only because their motor can't spin up to 10,000 RPM like our AC drive motor can - That speed would throw the windings off the rotor in the DC motors

I miss shifting, but the car is somehow plenty of fun without it - Using the regenerative braking to the max makes up for the lack of shifting, at least to me

Don