Who's trying to kill the electric car this time?
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Yes, a headline topic today. Another example:
http://insideevs.com/koch-brothers-...ttack-on-electric-cars-elon-musk-tweets-sigh/
Really, really sad. Notice, that Climate Change has not once come up as a topic in the Republican debates...
http://insideevs.com/koch-brothers-...ttack-on-electric-cars-elon-musk-tweets-sigh/
Really, really sad. Notice, that Climate Change has not once come up as a topic in the Republican debates...
PV1
Well-known member
Just like the major US automakers and Tesla. At first, nobody at GM even knew Tesla existed when they were building the Roadster (I believe it was Bob Lutz or Rick Wagoner that said that Tesla doesn't exist), then all of a sudden, they (auto manufacturers) were trying to legislate Tesla out of business by blocking sales. Now, they have no choice but to build EVs and compete in the market, except that they can't.
Since oil and ICEVs can't really compete with EVs other than range (which is changing quickly), they have to turn to Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt (FUD) instillation with their (what I call "Feel-Good") commercials. I've noticed that Koch, Marathon, and the natural gas industry only play their commercials on Sunday mornings (I guess to target the non-church crowd because religious beliefs and political views tend to go hand-in-hand in my area).
Plus, with the very disappointing lack of show by plug-in cars at the local Auto Show (the i-MiEV was mentioned in the book, but wasn't there), it's no wonder society can't get away from the pump. People have no idea how built out the infrastructure actually is. Some think that Teslas have gas generators to get their range
.
This is going to be fun :roll: .
Since oil and ICEVs can't really compete with EVs other than range (which is changing quickly), they have to turn to Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt (FUD) instillation with their (what I call "Feel-Good") commercials. I've noticed that Koch, Marathon, and the natural gas industry only play their commercials on Sunday mornings (I guess to target the non-church crowd because religious beliefs and political views tend to go hand-in-hand in my area).
Plus, with the very disappointing lack of show by plug-in cars at the local Auto Show (the i-MiEV was mentioned in the book, but wasn't there), it's no wonder society can't get away from the pump. People have no idea how built out the infrastructure actually is. Some think that Teslas have gas generators to get their range
.This is going to be fun :roll: .
Benjamin Nead
Well-known member
With historically low gasoline prices right now, it's harder to sell the concept of an EV on just financial savings in operating costs . . . which is how many wanted to spin it these past few years, since this contingent perceived that the general public "doesn't like hearing about all this boring green environmental stuff." But the lines so clearly drawn in this year's presidential election (not a single republican candidate acknowledging that human-induced climate change is real, even the so-called "moderate" ones) that it's time to get back to that as a talking point.
I've always been impressed by the thoroughness of studies on environmental aspects electric cars conducted by the Union of Concerned Scientists. If someone has the patience to read a 40+ page study from them, they can learn a lot. But a video like this can be quickly shared and gets to all the salient points very quickly . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9m9WDxmSN8
Pass it on . . .
I've always been impressed by the thoroughness of studies on environmental aspects electric cars conducted by the Union of Concerned Scientists. If someone has the patience to read a 40+ page study from them, they can learn a lot. But a video like this can be quickly shared and gets to all the salient points very quickly . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9m9WDxmSN8
Pass it on . . .
acensor
Well-known member
JoeS said:
Well, there is some good news. The climate deniers campaign has lost a lot of ground in the last two years. There is only 16% of the US population that denies climate change is real and that we need to do anything about it. That is a very significant change from , say, five years ago, when the deniers systematic disinformation campaign seemed to be very successful iin the US.
Then ....sometime ago the Nevada Legislature , pushed by the power companies, was considering putting a surcharge on homes that had solar PV. Until Musk told them he would pull his battery plant out of the state if they did that. Then they seem to have backed down.
rkarl89203
Well-known member
- Joined
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Actually no.
Was just in Nevada last week....all solar customers/producers are seeing significant cost hikes. Sad but true.
Was just in Nevada last week....all solar customers/producers are seeing significant cost hikes. Sad but true.
PV1
Well-known member
And so it begins. Just saw two pro-oil commercials almost in a row.
And funny how the timing lines up with OPEC's price fixing and the mysterious crash of the former CEO of Chesapeake Energy.
And funny how the timing lines up with OPEC's price fixing and the mysterious crash of the former CEO of Chesapeake Energy.
dniemeyer99
Well-known member
The oil companies can say all they want. They may even slow the conversion to EV down a little but you just can not change the math.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7Jg1IJ68_g
2023 can not come fast enough.
Dave
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7Jg1IJ68_g
2023 can not come fast enough.
Dave
phb10186
Well-known member
Even if they don't acknowledge the human dependent climate change argument - which is not totally unreasonable given the evidence in some areas, you still cant argue the following:
1. You still need oil for aviation, and transition will be much slower than for land based transport - so conservation will ensure that air travel can continue.
2. Urban air quality causes a lot of morbidity and mortality, far more than zero emission - and that's a major political issue in Europe.
3. If you kill off the EV, which is impossible at this point - even if there are enough people foolish enough in the US, there are far higher taxes on fuel in other parts of the world, and enough momentum to carry the success away from oil outside of it.
4. Block EVs and it will just make a faster transition to Hydrogen.
... there is a large amount of the world outside of the US still.
1. You still need oil for aviation, and transition will be much slower than for land based transport - so conservation will ensure that air travel can continue.
2. Urban air quality causes a lot of morbidity and mortality, far more than zero emission - and that's a major political issue in Europe.
3. If you kill off the EV, which is impossible at this point - even if there are enough people foolish enough in the US, there are far higher taxes on fuel in other parts of the world, and enough momentum to carry the success away from oil outside of it.
4. Block EVs and it will just make a faster transition to Hydrogen.
... there is a large amount of the world outside of the US still.
ed5000
Well-known member
Not necessarily true. Virgin Alantic flies on bio fuels.phb10186 said:
phb10186
Well-known member
ed5000 said:
Interesting.
Pleasing as this is a British company, but for now very early days. The difficulties are scalability and cost, because for now we are faced with a low cost oil market, and most people simply cant afford air fairs as they are, let alone the increased cost of bio-jet fuel.
However, with a combination of increased fuel efficiency and this sort of production process it may be technically possible, but is it practically possible - the world's air fleet requires a lot of fuel, and demand is only rising.
The market must be the solution, not business fat cats getting their mitts into political influence. So fast forward 20 years and they will probably be fighting a losing battle - very much like the tobacco industry is these days.
Dave, thanks for posting this presentation. We'll re-examine it in seven years to see just how accurate his predictions were. Interesting that he used the "200-mile range" as a public-acceptance criterion.dniemeyer99 said:
Now that we are nearing completion of our round-US Tesla trip I have become very disillusioned and pessimistic as to the receptiveness of this country to BEVs, or, for that matter, to weaning us off fossil fuels or even simply living more energy-efficient lives. Perhaps a different topic...
If you really want pessimism, read "The Sixth Extinction". We are worried, but cautiously optimistic. After all, we bought our first electric in December of 2014 after looking into, and giving up on, a conversion.
This is the way out, but it's a hugh job and everyone has to do it. We all have to hope that the auto makers can see electric as the future. If they don't, then the job gets all that much harder.
:mrgreen:
And congrats on your trip! We are a bit green with envy!
If you get me started, I will tee off on GM and their EV1 project. They could have owned the EV market by now and tipped the balance years ago. They have to engage now and it looks like they are going to do just that. If they and the other automakers don't, however, then we kill all of them.
This is the way out, but it's a hugh job and everyone has to do it. We all have to hope that the auto makers can see electric as the future. If they don't, then the job gets all that much harder.
:mrgreen:
And congrats on your trip! We are a bit green with envy!
If you get me started, I will tee off on GM and their EV1 project. They could have owned the EV market by now and tipped the balance years ago. They have to engage now and it looks like they are going to do just that. If they and the other automakers don't, however, then we kill all of them.
Every time I see an article about the Koch brothers I have to think about what they are really like, why they do what they do and how they interact with each other. A picture always comes to mind of Ralph Bellamy and Don Ameche playing the greedy "Duke brothers" (I know they were supposed to be the real life Hunt brothers) in the movie Trading Places. In the movie they were trying to corner the frozen orange juice market (like the real Hunt brothers tried with the silver market). The Koch's have different motives but like a song you hear that you can't get out of your mind, the images from the movie pop up every time I hear or think about the Koch's :lol: !
acensor
Well-known member
Hi PHB...
You wrote, in part...
"4. Block EVs and it will just make a faster transition to Hydrogen...."
In my opinion (and the opinion of some analysts far more savey and analytical than me) the hydrogen economy and particularly the hydrogen fuel cell car are non-starters, and in a sense bordering on being a hype.
Short version:
1) The electricity costs needed to generate the free hydrogen (not just the electrolysis process, but the compressing it to liquid form) with inefficiencies and every step, and get it to where it's going to be used are so onerous that it is about (if I remember right) 1/4th as energy efficient as putting that same number of watt-hours one starts with into an electric car.
2) Unless the power for the splitting of H20 into H2 is from clean sources it's just a dirty (dirtier actually because of the inefficiencies) as burning oil.
3) The massive infrastructure needed for moving liquid hydrogen around the country is not something legitimately brushed aside.
4) Watch the movie "who killed the electric car" again and watch the section on the hydrogen fuel cell car.
And listen to one of the top folks in one of the fuel cell car project explicitly say, and explain why, the hydrogen fuel cell car will never make it to reality as a significant form of transport.
See "Time To Come Clean About Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles"
at
http://cleantechnica.com/2014/06/04/hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-about-not-clean/
You wrote, in part...
"4. Block EVs and it will just make a faster transition to Hydrogen...."
In my opinion (and the opinion of some analysts far more savey and analytical than me) the hydrogen economy and particularly the hydrogen fuel cell car are non-starters, and in a sense bordering on being a hype.
Short version:
1) The electricity costs needed to generate the free hydrogen (not just the electrolysis process, but the compressing it to liquid form) with inefficiencies and every step, and get it to where it's going to be used are so onerous that it is about (if I remember right) 1/4th as energy efficient as putting that same number of watt-hours one starts with into an electric car.
2) Unless the power for the splitting of H20 into H2 is from clean sources it's just a dirty (dirtier actually because of the inefficiencies) as burning oil.
3) The massive infrastructure needed for moving liquid hydrogen around the country is not something legitimately brushed aside.
4) Watch the movie "who killed the electric car" again and watch the section on the hydrogen fuel cell car.
And listen to one of the top folks in one of the fuel cell car project explicitly say, and explain why, the hydrogen fuel cell car will never make it to reality as a significant form of transport.
See "Time To Come Clean About Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles"
at
http://cleantechnica.com/2014/06/04/hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-about-not-clean/
acensor
Well-known member
Also see this re hydrogen fuel cell car:
http://c1cleantechnicacom.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/files/2014/06/Fuel_Cell_Whole_Truth1.jpg
http://c1cleantechnicacom.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/files/2014/06/Fuel_Cell_Whole_Truth1.jpg
PV1
Well-known member
I agree with your notes on point #4. Hydrogen was talked about a lot right at the end of the EV1/RAV4-EV leases, then vanished as quickly as the EVs did. It took today's rEVolution for Hydrogen to get another look. It seems like Hydrogen is a intentional distraction provided by the oil industry to get people away from battery electrics. If all current plug-ins were to go off the market tomorrow, talks of Hydrogen would likely go with them.
Not to sound like a conspiracy theorist (is this even a theory at this point?), but oil companies can control the sales of Hydrogen. They can't control what we plug our cars into to recharge them. Actually, one of their highlighted features for Hydrogen cars is the exact opposite, plug your car in to power your house. So now you leave with low fuel and need to refill with more Hydrogen.
Not to sound like a conspiracy theorist (is this even a theory at this point?), but oil companies can control the sales of Hydrogen. They can't control what we plug our cars into to recharge them. Actually, one of their highlighted features for Hydrogen cars is the exact opposite, plug your car in to power your house. So now you leave with low fuel and need to refill with more Hydrogen.
