Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fuel

[KiwiEV]

Hi folks,

I took the plunge and installed a diesel parking heater (air heater) into my EV. So far it's day four with no problems to report. By using the hose shown at the end of the video I've managed to improve the air circulation around the car substantially.

Video: https://youtu.be/7NBMq5o_UJU

Still in "testing mode" at the moment, but it's doing better than I thought it would. Of course the real test will come in a few weeks when winter really sets in. Looking forward to it.

 

[FrostyCanada]

Hello Mr. Kiwi,

It would be interesting to see if you could route a 2 1/2 inch pipe from your heater along the passenger side of the car (via floor).

I think there's plenty of room between the seat and door for such a pipe.

I would then plug the pipe above the fan intake (inside glove compartment?) this would pull air from your heater into the cars HVAC system.

Food for thought,
Brian

 

[Don]

I agree that's worth a shot - Anything you can do to integrate the heater into the existing HVAC system so that it can blow air where and when you need it would be a plus. The way the diesel/water parking heater integrates into the existing HVAC system is great. The very inefficient OEM electric to water heating setup seems like such a really BAD way to heat a car . . . . until you realize that all you need is a better way to generate the heat and then you're really glad it uses a water radiator core, because you can direct heat produced outside the car to where ever you need it *and* you can choose to heat inside or outside air as desired

Ducting your air heater into the existing system sounds like something you should look into - If there was an easy way to mount the heater under the hood and then duct the heat directly into the car, that would be great . . . . but then I think that pretty well describes the diesel/water heater - The existing water lines bring the heat generated outside the car into the car and without cutting any holes

Don

 

[mdbuilder]

I actually consider the electric to heat water system pretty efficient, it transfers the heat very fast from a cold start. It is the direct conversion of electrical power to heat via resistance that is less efficient.

 

[PV1]

Electric resistance heat is nearly 100% efficient, it's just power hungry (efficient, but not economical).

Glad to see you on the forum, Gavin. Phximiev has been linking your Google+ videos here for us to enjoy (and that, we did). Glad to hear the air heater works well.

As for ducting, having it direct air along the floor and blowing forwards would heat the entire cabin (hardest part of heating this car is keeping the floor warm). Or, routing it along the passenger side floor would force the warm air up to the recirculator intake on the factory HVAC system. However, running the recirculator in the winter is almost guaranteed to fog up the windows. For this reason, the water-based heater works better as fresh outside air is heated, but it sounds like your air heater is powerful enough for a little outside air coming in to not be an issue.

 

[JoeS]

Gavin, congratulations on your installation!

We have two parallel threads going on Gavin's exploits (the other one being Kiwi in Slovakia), thus this one is only for discussing his diesel/air heater. Two comments -

1. The European version of the i-MiEV may not have the floor clearance between the seat and door that the wider North American version does for ducting the air forward.

2. Gavin, did you measure the noise level (at the driver's head position) of the heater at various fan settings?

 

[luthus001]

Hi Im a newcomer here. I found this thread very informing especially the part about gas and diesel heaters being identical except for fuel/air ratios. Has anyone had experience running or attempting to run alcohol in a diesel heater? (the advantage of alcohol being a cleaner fuel less odor less soot less maintenance) Im thinking it may be possible because today I stuck a vacuum cleaner to the exhaust outlet of my heater while it was running to clear out some build-up of water in the exhaust line, and it turns out I can pull the vacuum full blast at the exhaust port and flame never goes out even with heater on Low. So apparently the machine isn't all that sensitive to (excess) combustion air flow. if the only difference between ethanol and diesel is that ethanol requires a little less air, I can't see running ethanol in the diesel version being a problem other than the slightly reduced output/efficiency which in my mind isn't a big concern

 

[sandange]

I've racked up 60,000 miles 100,000 km and into my 3rd winter with my JP Diesel water heater,
Last month I had my first problem - Not too serious ,
The clamps on the exhaust pipe rusted from the road salt I and almost lost my exhaust pipe.
Fortunately it fell off in a parking lot and I was able to recover it.

If you have the JP diesel water heater you might want to inspect or replace the exhaust pipe clamps.
I replaced mine with some stainless steel hose clamps.
So far so good.

 

[luthus001]

Finally made the effort to siphon out old fuel and switch my knockoff Espar/Webasto hot air heater to alcohol fuel. would like to report that the heater designed for diesel appears to run very well on denatured alcohol. so maybe the gas version is not necessary here. im willing to bet the diesel version runs gasoline too. I may try E85 some day. with the alcohol in there no longer is a pungent odor coming out the exhaust pipe. hot air temperature dropped from ~100 deg C (running diesel) to ~60 deg. C, no longer warping plastic, which I think is a plus. Other than the benefit of mind knowing im not adding another layer of carbon to the combustion chamber every time I use the heat, i think being able to dilute my fuel with water to suit the altitude (or just for the hell of it) can be very good, because Espar/Webasto says their heaters need special adjustments or a special fuel pump (over a hundred $$) to reduce fuel flow at high altitudes. now i can reduce fuel flow with a $.84 gallon of distilled water

 

[Phximiev]

Finally made the effort to siphon out old fuel and switch my knockoff Espar/Webasto hot air heater to alcohol fuel. would like to report that the heater designed for diesel appears to run very well on denatured alcohol. so maybe the gas version is not necessary here. im willing to bet the diesel version runs gasoline too. I may try E85 some day. with the alcohol in there no longer is a pungent odor coming out the exhaust pipe. hot air temperature dropped from ~100 deg C (running diesel) to ~60 deg. C, no longer warping plastic, which I think is a plus. Other than the benefit of mind knowing im not adding another layer of carbon to the combustion chamber every time I use the heat, i think being able to dilute my fuel with water to suit the altitude (or just for the hell of it) can be very good, because Espar/Webasto says their heaters need special adjustments or a special fuel pump (over a hundred $$) to reduce fuel flow at high altitudes. now i can reduce fuel flow with a $.84 gallon of distilled water

Luthus001:

How and/or where did you install the air heater in the car? Pics?

 

[phb10186]

Though it wouldn't give the amount of heat out in total, why not use something like a Goalzero Yeti 400 powerpack, and then plug in a 300-400 watt fan heater. Yes it's about £400 - but you get a good portable power pack, no installation required at all, no exhaust etc - and you would get about an hour of heat , which would be ok for the majority of journeys - then use the car heater on a low setting if needed.... or is that not enough heat output?

You could charge this thing at work, and at home - so you'd always have the power on tap. I wonder if 300W over a 30 minute period would provide enough heat in conjunction to the heated seats etc.

Do you need a 2kw heater running all the time, or is a lower powered heater for a longer period going to supply enough? I liked the idea of the diesel heater, but it takes a lot of space, and you have to cut out the rear carpet mat and engine cover, which would cost far more to reinstate than the cost of the power pack, and no messing with diesel, and you keep the storage space too. I guess if you used that in conjunction with preheat mode, then 300w may maintain the heat in the car??? Even if it cant maintain room temperature, any thing close would be better than nothing.

... Just a thought.

 

[JoeS]

... I liked the idea of the diesel heater, but it takes a lot of space, and you have to cut out the rear carpet mat and engine cover, which would cost far more to reinstate than the cost of the power pack, and no messing with diesel, and you keep the storage space too...

Only one person so far has done the diesel-heated-air conversion, and we're still waiting for a longer-term assessment of this mod; all the others have installed the rather-elegant hot-water-heaters directly into the i-MiEV's existing plumbing.

 

[Don]

Though it wouldn't give the amount of heat out in total, why not use something like a Goalzero Yeti 400 powerpack, and then plug in a 300-400 watt fan heater. Yes it's about £400 - but you get a good portable power pack, no installation required at all, no exhaust etc - and you would get about an hour of heat , which would be ok for the majority of journeys - then use the car heater on a low setting if needed.... or is that not enough heat output?

Over here on this side of the pond, most home utility heaters are 120 volts, 12.5 amps and put out about 1500 watts on high and 750 watts on low. Few people use the low setting unless it's to keep a doghouse warm. On a cold day in a car with lots of glass and little to no insulation you wouldn't find 750 watts of heat doing much of anything . . . . let alone only 300 to 400 watts. We have a saying here - For that price it's just too little sugar for your nickel

The diesel heaters put out several times more heat and when mounted under the hood they take up zero space inside the car and are easily reversible if you want to keep the heater when you sell the car. If you're looking for something to give you heat similar to what you're used to riding around in an ICE powered car in the winter, there really isn't any other option that I'm aware of - They will keep you toasty warm even if your wife spends hours in the store :lol:

Don

 

[Arnaud12]

Hi
I'm Arnaud, driving a Peugeot ION, I would like do the same modification then here:

https://300mpg.org/imiev-heater-installation/

On my Webasto I have relay for the vehicule blower, I would like the parking heater turn on the vehicule fan during pre-heat (when the car is off).
I tried to take + from the battery to the + of the blower but it's not working because the speed regulation (whitsh is on the - side of the blower) is off.
I could of course use 2 relays (one for the + and one for the -) but then the blower will be at full speed all the time when I use the webasto.

Is anyone have a smarter place to plug this vehicule blower relay?

Sorry for my English

 

[Gorfllub]

Based on the electrical diagrams, the blower speed is regulated by the violet and white wires on the blower transistor mounted to the blower itself.

Would need to test these leads and see what they do when the fan is at the speed you want. The service information I have gives no indication as to what the signals are. But if it truly is a transistor, I would imagine is simply a variable voltage.

So find the voltage required and send that to the power transistor. You would also need to feed +12v to the black blower wire. (blue is the ground side, controlled by the transistor)


This is all assuming you are talking about running the heater without the key on (ready) or driving.

I also assume your car does NOT have the remote control for turning on heating while plugged in? If it does, skip the blower wiring all together. Turn the heater on then use the remote to switch to defrost mode while plugged in.

And if you only want to use it while driving, again, do nothing with the blower wiring. Simply put the fan on whatever setting you want.

Other than the current draw, there is nothing wrong with running the fan on full.

 

[Gorfllub]

Ugggggg.


I just did some testing and wrote a whole post about the results then something went bad and its gone.


The short version of the story is:

The white wire at the transistor is a fairly high impedance. like 17k ohm when off. And it increases all the way up over 100k ohm when on max.

So it may only need to open that wire and ground the transistor side through a resistor. Say 40k ohm for a mid speed fan. But you also have to feed the blower +12v as it is disconnected when the system is off.

 

[Arnaud12]

Thanks a lot for the test
There is no remote contrrol on the peugeot.

From what I understand : I could use :

- relay 1 to take the +12V to black wire of the fan
- relay 2 to groud that white wire (I didn't really understand where it was)
- relay 3 to turn off relay 1 and 2 when the car is on, so I can use the knob from the car to set the fan speed.

 

[Arnaud12]

Ok I found the transistor I will try to put a potensiometer between the white and the black wire (ground).
Once It 'll be finish I'll try to do a feed back with pictures.

 

[Gorfllub]

Cool. Let us know!


Its too bad you don't have the remote. I wonder if its pre-wired and maybe you could put one in?

 

[Arnaud12]

Form what I have seen on the french forum nobody add a remote (that doesn't mean it's impossible).
That's to bad PSA downgrade so much this car, it was probaly in the contrat with mistubishi (but that 's an other topic).