Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fuel

[bennelson]

Hi everyone.
I've been following this thread with great interest.

I have decided that the Mitsubishi iMiEV heating system is either fine or TERRIBLE, depending on where you live and what your average winter temperatures are. A few days ago, it was -8 degrees F. in my part of the world (Wisconsin, United States.)

I would like to install the heater that Sandange and others have installed, only the gasoline version, so that I can burn straight ethanol. Ethanol burns clean. It's not smelly like diesel, and doesn't flash the way gasoline does. I'd like my car to run on RENEWABLE electricity, and the heater to run on renewable liquid fuel. I have a source for pure ethanol (E98) and if I run out of that, commercial E85 is available at my local gas station.

Any concerns about which hoses to use or materials for the fuel tank? Here's the heater I would be looking to get: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Truck-Water-heater-Liquid-parking-heater-5kw-12V-Gasoline-similar-to-Webasto-for-Trucks-cars-etc/416052_742102128.html

As has already been addressed in this thread, it appears to be the same as the diesel version - just slightly different software.

 

[sandange]

Looks like the same kit as the one I installed.
Curious to hear how satisfied you are using ethanol. Someone here had tried several different types of fuel . Can't remember what their conclusion was.

No mater what fuel you use, you'll experience a significantly improved level of winter driving , comfort as well as extended driving range.

 

[bennelson]

The experiments with the different fuel types were done with one of the diesel heaters. I'll be ordering a gasoline one, so it should be fine. We all do know that there's just plain more energy in diesel than there is in gasoline than there is in ethanol. However, I will still prefer to be heating with something that I could practically drink.

Jarkko just made a post on his experiences with ethanol at his personal blog. http://kwsaki.blogspot.com/2016/01/heating-my-evs.html

I also spent some time on the phone with a friend yesterday, who is an expert in ethanol. He's made thousands of gallons himself from scratch. After speaking with him, I really don't have any concerns about it. He also said he would donate 5 gallons of pure ethanol for me to start with. (E98. It's 98% ethanol. It has 2% of other things in it, mostly to keep people from drinking it!)

As Sandange said, I expect that even if the ethanol has fewer BTUs, it still would be a huge jump up from the existing heating system. I also like redundant systems. Installing the fuel-burning heating in ADDITION to the original electric means that heat is still available if for whatever reason the fuel-burner isn't working. It still maintains the electric pre-heat feature. And a person can still use the electric only heat on short trips and/or not as cold weather to reduce fuel use.

Seems like a Hybrid Heater System has lots of advantages.

The downsides are
Cost: I have to buy the heater and install it.
Fuel Cost: I would have to buy fuel. But I shouldn't use much, so it's a very small cost, especially compared to gassing up an entire ICE vehicle.
Noise: The heater isn't as quiet as the electric, but with the radio on and the windows up, so what? Keeps us from running over all the blind pedestrians anyways.

Any other downsides? Takes a little time to fire up and there can be smell or exhaust issues, depending on the fuel. Again, ethanol should be the least offensive of any that way.

 

[databeestje]

I just found this video online, I can't make out much of the speech as it's quite different from english, german or dutch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4a8TEGyb7g

It looks like he has built the fuel tank next to the heater fluid tank and it actually has a filler cap, which is nice. I'm still wondering where the actual diesel heater is, could be in front of the radiator (from the sound of it) like you want to install it too. You'd only hear that in the winter though, so it isn't too bad.

Hanging your heater in the cold driving wind seems ... weird. But i guess it works

 

[Carsten]

The Webasto Youtube video is in Russian. I didn't know, that Webasto has a unit, that would fit with a tank into the iMiev. I have yo look at it.

 

[bennelson]

Returning to an earlier idea in this thread...

How about adding more heater fluid (coolant) to the system?

This should make the diesel heater cycle on and off less frequently, which should add to longevity and efficiency.

If adding extra coolant, how much would be appropriate, and where would be the best location to mount that size of an insulated coolant tank? I would think that because there is so little coolant in the car's heating system, that even something like a one liter thermos of extra coolant might help.

Your thoughts?

 

[jsantala]

Then again more coolant means more energy needed to heat it up initially (especially bad if the burner goes out) and it will also take longer to get it up to temperature. More piping and tanks will probably always mean more surface to radiate heat out. In my DIY I'm happy that the tank is not in the loop which the heated liquid travels, so it probably doesn't give much heat out. Should take some measurements though.

On the i-MiEV and friends, the waterfall tank setup probably maximizes heat loss as much as possible. I've though about re-arranging the water flow so that the tank wouldn't be directly in the loop in my C-Zero either. Seems like wasted energy to me. Yet another thing to do next summer, when it's actually possible to work on the things you need for winter...

 

[Aerowhatt]

On the i-MiEV and friends, the waterfall tank setup probably maximizes heat loss as much as possible. I've though about re-arranging the water flow so that the tank wouldn't be directly in the loop in my C-Zero either. Seems like wasted energy to me. Yet another thing to do next summer, when it's actually possible to work on the things you need for winter...

This is a good idea I think. One could shorten the heating loop considerably by using a tee to connect the shortened inlet hose to the shortened outlet hose of the reservoir tank then run the tee to the bottom opening of the tank. The tank would act like an expansion/replenishment tank instead of having constant flow through it. One would need to make sure that the connection of the hose up to the tank originated in the top side of the heater loop to facilitate the rise of any gasses or vapors back to the reservoir tank. This combined with insulating the loop would cut losses in the loop considerably!

Aerowhatt

 

[databeestje]

It's a shame there isn't any room in the dash to mount the heater and the tank, then some of the heat would leak into the cabin instead.

 

[jray3]

I like having more 'coolant' (heat transfer fluid) in the heater loop, esp. for a car without the fuel-fired heater, as it will hold the electric preheat longer. My experiment with 5 gallons of hot water in the cargo hold worked very well on New Years Eve, when the car sat for hours in freezing weather, yet the cabin was warm when we returned.

Since I'm using an old 5 gallon outboard engine fuel tank, it was stable and quiet in the cargo hold and radiated heat effectively. If it were plumbed into the heating loop, there 'could' be no additional battery load while driving IF actively managed. Otherwise, you might get more heater use than wanted simply from the loop circulating through the tank while the blower is turned down. At a specific heat 1 BTU/LB of water (8.33 lb/gallon) per degree change in F, a 5 gallon tank of hot water will deliver 41.65 BTU per degree of change. That's 2916 BTU when falling from 120 to 50 degrees, or 5415 BTU if you heat it all the way to 180. That's 855 Watt-hrs from the 120 degree water or 1587 Wh from the 180 degree water. That's far better than a hunk of hot lead (0.03 btu/lb), iron (0.12 btu/lb), or even the best metal on the table, our cherished Lithium, at 0.85 btu/lb! reference: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-heat-metals-d_152.html

Assuming 900 Wh per bar (since the turtle comes on at 10% SOC), that's 0.95 to 1.76 bars worth of heating, or 4 to 7 miles of range. (In return for carrying about 45 extra pounds of cargo)

Interestingly, the Valence U-Charge U27-12XP batteries I'm playing with on my Grumman Kurbwatt project weigh 44 lbs and hold up to 1766 Wh, making hot water just as valuable as cutting-edge Lithium batteries on a pound-for-pound basis. (And more valuable than any hunk of metal, be it Aluminum or Lead.
EVen if our lithium does prove good for a few thousand discharge cycles, that's nowhere near the infinite number of heating cycles that water is good for!

 

[Phximiev]

What temperature did you heat the water up to? (On your New Year's Eve ride).

 

[kiev]

Plus how did you heat the water--in the 5 gallon tank? Is it a one-time use filled from the hot water tap, or do you have a way to re-heat the water/tank.

 

[jsantala]

Yes, I could see more "coolant" might be beneficial, if you have pre-heat. Sadly, the french editions have no pre-heat at all. No remote and no way to get the car heat itself while plugged in. Nothing.

I wonder if someone might be able to capture the appropriate CAN message which triggers it, perhaps it could be spoofed in these vehicles too and the pre-heat activated that way? The feature itself might still be there, just no way to activate it.

 

[databeestje]

This monday I came to the same (cold) conclusion where I was hoping I could defrost the wind screen while connected. The car didn't want anything to do with that unfortunately.

Perhaps we can bribe one of the OVMS developers to make such a feature? Someone else already took some CAN bus readings when switching on the heater.
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=16771#p16771

 

[jray3]

thx Phximiev and kiev, it's been a busy week here, no forum time.

I just refilled the tank from my natural gas-fired residential water heater at about 130 degrees F. To keep it from freezing overnight in the car I move the tank inside, which also salvages a few remaining BTU before pouring it back into the aquifer (I'm on well water and sitting on top of 100+ feet of glacial gravel and yes, the fuel tank was carefully cleaned).

Off topic, but for those heating with electricity, heat pump water heaters have come a long way, and are poised for another big leap in efficiency (and capable of up to 149 degree water temperatures in colder climates) with the use of CO2 as refrigerant.
https://www.sandenwaterheater.com/

 

[bennelson]

Hi everyone. I just got my parking heater in the mail the other day. It's the same "JP-ChinaTrade" one that others in this thread have used, except that it's the gasoline version.

I bought a little fuel at the gas station. I purchased 0.20 gallons for 32 cents. And it was E85, so only 15% of that was gasoline. So, I guess I only got 0.03 gallons of gasoline.

I unboxed the heater and took a look through the parts. I did NOT see a fuel filter included, and the instructions mention it, so I think it's just missing/not included. I'll have to grab one at the auto parts store I guess. The documentation with the heater is NOT good. It's basically a bad photocopied manual with the font size too small to actually read, and bad translation. Fortunately, the whole thing isn't too complicated. It's fairly obvious what hose goes where. I also took a look at an Espar heater PDF manual, which was easier to understand. (http://www.atrading.cz/data/eber_hydronic4_5.pdf)

It didn't take me too long to lay out all the parts and do a temporary mount to learn how it all works and to test it. I used an old metal water bottle as a fuel tank, and drilled a 1/8" hole in the cap for the fuel intake. I screwed everything to a pallet, ran the hoses to a bucket, hooked it up to a 12V battery and tested it.

Worked great! The hardest part was just getting water IN to the heater for the pump to work properly (it's NOT self-priming...)

Didn't take too long for the water in the bucket to heat up.

https://youtu.be/hvhP1iOiHfs
https://youtu.be/_7m6pahmi0E
See more on my blog! http://300mpg.org/2016/02/07/fired-up-testing-the-fuel-heater/

 

[sandange]

Great Videos
explaining the fuel heater Ben.
Thanks for putting this together & sharing.
I especially like the infrared shots showing the heat and how it travels.

When I installed mine...
DonD and I had a discussion about the one way valve (came with the kit) that installs on the antifreeze plumbing tie in.

The question
was how effective it was to isolated the fuel heater if you use the electric heater only.
Does it by pass properly and avoid wasting (heat pumping it through the fuel heater)?

Once you install yours -
If possible - could you show an infrared shot of the installation running the electric heater only so we can answer this mystery.
Would be very much appreciated.

 

[bennelson]

Hi Sandange,
I'd be happy to shoot a thermal image/video of the one-way valve once my installation is complete.


I do have a few other questions for you all before I start my installation:

1) What about the air bleeder valve on top of the heater? In my experiments with a bucket of water, it's sort of hard to get the hoses completely filled with water and bleed the air to get the fully-functioning water pump to go full blast. In descriptions of other people's installs, I don't recall the bleeder valve being mentioned at all! Is it accessible after the heater is installed on the plate in front of the radiator? (I'm planning to do mine similar to DonDakin and Sandange.) I think that getting all the air out of the hoses SHOULD be less of an issue when installed in the car as the heater will be LOWER than the coolant reservoir, which is where I will disconnect the hose and then make the connection from the heater with the one-way tee valve.

2) How do you stop vacuum from forming in the fuel tank? Seems like people have used anything from recycled oil plastic bottles to go-kart or lawn mower fuel tanks. A good fuel tank design should have an easy to access cap on top, and be easy to see how much fuel is left. A clear plastic fuel tank would be good for seeing how much fuel is left. Small commercial tanks usually have a very small valve in the cap that lets in a little air as fuel is used up. This prevents vacuum from being created which would make the fuel pump work very hard. For people who have NOT used a little commercial tank, how do you deal with vacuum? Is your fuel pickup just through a loose hole that also lets in some air? Any concern then for evaporation, spills, etc?

3) What type of antifreeze to use? The stuff in my iMiEV looks BLUE! (No, I'm not confusing it with the washer fluid reservoir...) I don't think I've ever seen blue anti-freeze, all the stuff I've ever used is sort of orange, yellow, or nuclear green! I know that there are certain types of automotive fluids that are and are NOT compatible with each other. I just don't want to get the wrong stuff.

4) Hose sizes. The hoses on the back of the coolant reservoir look very SMALL compared to the hose that came with the fuel heater. I believe that on the installation that Sandange did (with the one-way tee valve) it appears that a small hose (the original from the back of the coolant reservoir?) was able to be stretched over the end of the tee. If possible, I would prefer NOT to have to mess with hose diameter adapters, but if I do, I'd like to have them ahead of time and handy.

 

[JoeS]

Regarding i-MiEV Coolant, from the Workshop Manual:

Coolant [includes 1.1 dm3 (1.2 qt) in the radiator condenser tank]

Qty: 5.1 litres (5.4 qt)

DiaQueen SUPER LONG LIFE COOLANT PREMIUM or equivalent*

NOTE: *similar high quality ethylene glycol based non-silicate, non-amine, non-nitrate and non-borate coolant with long life hybrid organic acid technology.

 

[sandange]

Hi Sandange,
I'd be happy to shoot a thermal image/video of the one-way valve once my installation is complete.
Thanks Ben this is appreciated

I do have a few other questions for you all before I start my installation:

1) What about the air bleeder valve on top of the heater? In my experiments with a bucket of water, it's sort of hard to get the hoses completely filled with water and bleed the air to get the fully-functioning water pump to go full blast. In descriptions of other people's installs, I don't recall the bleeder valve being mentioned at all! Is it accessible after the heater is installed on the plate in front of the radiator? (I'm planning to do mine similar to DonDakin and Sandange.) I think that getting all the air out of the hoses SHOULD be less of an issue when installed in the car as the heater will be LOWER than the coolant reservoir, which is where I will disconnect the hose and then make the connection from the heater with the one-way tee valve.

I installed it on the front plate upright - as you did on your test board and never had any problems with air pockets

2) How do you stop vacuum from forming in the fuel tank? Seems like people have used anything from recycled oil plastic bottles to go-kart or lawn mower fuel tanks. A good fuel tank design should have an easy to access cap on top, and be easy to see how much fuel is left. A clear plastic fuel tank would be good for seeing how much fuel is left. Small commercial tanks usually have a very small valve in the cap that lets in a little air as fuel is used up. This prevents vacuum from being created which would make the fuel pump work very hard. For people who have NOT used a little commercial tank, how do you deal with vacuum? Is your fuel pickup just through a loose hole that also lets in some air? Any concern then for evaporation, spills, etc?

I bought a go kart fuel tank and it has a shut off valve located on the bottom and a vented cap

3) What type of antifreeze to use? The stuff in my iMiEV looks BLUE! (No, I'm not confusing it with the washer fluid reservoir...) I don't think I've ever seen blue anti-freeze, all the stuff I've ever used is sort of orange, yellow, or nuclear green! I know that there are certain types of automotive fluids that are and are NOT compatible with each other. I just don't want to get the wrong stuff.

JoeS covered this - a good quality compatible anti freeze .

4) Hose sizes. The hoses on the back of the coolant reservoir look very SMALL compared to the hose that came with the fuel heater. I believe that on the installation that Sandange did (with the one-way tee valve) it appears that a small hose (the original from the back of the coolant reservoir?) was able to be stretched over the end of the tee. If possible, I would prefer NOT to have to mess with hose diameter adapters, but if I do, I'd like to have them ahead of time and handy.

Yes a lot of patience and hose stretching made it work for me.
be careful where you cut into the original hoses to install the valve - try and locate it where you can work and reach it easily. Also - I had to remove the drivers front wheel inner fender to feed the pies from the heater up to toward the reservoir made it a lot easier this way.