Propane Camping heater

[iwatson]

Maybe it's too early to consider winter driving in the heat of August, but we've only had our i-miev a couple of months now, and I'm concerned about winter range.

My wife uses the car for short little errands like to our daughter's school and back, the grocery store, the cleaners, shopping etc. Most chores are 5 or less miles from home so I'm confident that even running the heater she will have enough range for these short jaunts.

Occasionally she likes to go to her parents house which is 17 miles away. Round trip is 34 miles and then if she has other chores that day there might be a problem.

I was curious if anyone has tried to use a small propane camping heater? You can pick one up at Wal-mart for less than a hundred dollars, but where would you put it? You'd have to run it on low so as not to generate too much heat and position away from plastic surfaces so you don't melt the plastic. I'm thinking if she set it in the floorboard on the passenger side, run it on it's lowest setting and cracked a window or two to vent fumes (its designed to be used in a tent which is also enclosed and made out of plastic and other combustible materials). This would only be used on those days when she needed to make a longer commute.

Any comments are welcome.

 

[Don]

I wouldn't recommend it

You could set the ventilation system to outside air and that should keep the fumes to a safe level, but I think you're going to find the propane heater fogs up the windows really fast - Even without a fuel burning heater inside the car, you're going to find keeping the fog off the windows in the winter to be a problem

If I lived where it snows, I would be installing the diesel water heater that some of those in northern climates are using - That is the 'ultimate' solution, IMO

http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1248

Don

 

[JoeS]

I wouldn't recommend it...

+1 Aside from the potential danger, it's too much trouble, IMO.

...Occasionally she likes to go to her parents house which is 17 miles away. Round trip is 34 miles and then if she has other chores that day there might be a problem...

By now, your wife is tuned-in to her range needs and is adept at plugging in the i-MiEV and has learned to anticipate any longer trips which might necessitate a top-up charge. With the car plugged in at home, using the Remote she can pre-heat the car so it's toasty warm when she starts off (don't forget to also have the seat heater switch turned ON). Once on the road, she can continue running the seat heater (power consumption of the seat heater is negligible compared to the main heater) - after all, 17 miles is what, 1/2-hour drive? Even turning on the heater/defroster for part of the trip will allow for an easy round trip. Finally, if really concerned, is there the ability for your wife to plug in at her parents' house (even at 120vac L1 using the Mitsu EVSE - even if only to preheat the car for her return home)? All of my distantly-located friends (whom I haven't yet convinced to get an EV) know to leave access to an outlet whenever we visit.

 

[sandange]

A few of us up here in the north gave camping heaters and several other approaches earlier on...

http://s211.photobucket.com/user/Sandange/slideshow/miev/EV Propane heater

here is link the some of those experiments
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=224&start=40

For our Canadian climate I found the camping heater was not powerful enough and gave of too much humidity fogging up the windows

 

[jray3]

hi watson, my round trip commute is 35 miles, and MRBEAN has no problem making the winter round trip in toasty comfort, though I use the preheater while plugged in to L2 for comfort and a range cushion. I came up with a "worst case" range to the car in January 2012 by running heat, headlights and wipers on the highway at 65 mph. 45 miles is also my max practical highway target between 80% CHAdeMO sessions.

That being said, we have discussed heat a lot on this forum, and armaflex insulation of the heater and hoses is on my to-do list. I've also acquired a steel 5 gallon outboard motor fuel tank to use as a hot water reservoir (sitting on the rear floor), and will see how much that prevents cooldown of the car. I've calculated that hot water is a better heat source than even the same weight in extra lithium batteries! A dry heat source that doesn't contribute to window fogging (like a Mr Buddy camping heater would) is important in this car, because even minimal defogging can be a significant heating load.

 

[PV1]

Kind of related, but has anyone tried an anti-fog trick (like shaving cream) on the windows? I lose heat quickly in the winter mainly by having to leave the vents on.

 

[Don]

Rain-X makes an 'anti-fog' product you wipe on the inside of your glass - As good as Rain-X works on the outside, their anti-fog treatment is on the opposite end of the scale . . . . it didn't work at all for me

Don

 

[iwatson]

Okay Plan B: Has anyone tried one of the 12 volt cigarette lighter plug electric blankets? I know the i-miev has the seat heater, so how about a blanket over you while you drive that's electrically heated.

Last year was brutally cold here for our part of the country. We hadn't bought our i-miev yet, but I have some experience with my Chevy Volt. On the coldest days when I cranked the heater my range would drop from 35 miles down to about 26. I hated burning gas but with the Volt at least burning gas is an option. Several days I tried to not use the heater so I could maintain decent range. The seat heater is fine for keeping your butt and back warm, but my feet, legs and front would get cold, so more often than not I'd go back to cranking the heat and down would go my range.

I have not tried a 12volt blanket in my car, but with the seat heater on and the blanket covering your front and legs, you might stay comfy warm?

I've read several mentions about a 12v plug-in motorcycle vest but that would'nt do anything for your legs?

 

[Don]

Okay Plan B: Has anyone tried one of the 12 volt cigarette lighter plug electric blankets? I know the i-miev has the seat heater, so how about a blanket over you while you drive that's electrically heated.

I think just about every 12 volt option out there has been tried and reported on here - The defroster/fan from Harbor Freight, the blanket you mention, the heated clothing/socks that motorcyclists use . . . . everything I've ever heard of

They all 'work' . . . . to some degree. The limitation is that the accessory outlet is fused at 15 amps and at 14 volts, that gives you about 200 watts of 'heat' to play with. The little 6 inch household cube heaters you plug in the wall give you about 6 times more heat than you're going to get with any 12 volt accessory and you know how 'wimpy' the household heaters feel on a cold morning . . . .

You can wear electric socks, use the lap blanket and turn on the seat heater and you won't freeze to death, but you are going to need to run the car heater to keep the windows un-fogged and just like with your Volt, that reduces range - By about 1/3rd if you're getting any meaningful heat. Tip - Running both the heater and the A/C at the same time seems to be the best way to keep the windows fog-free using the minimum amount of electricity

But . . . . if you bought the car (vs leasing it) and you plan to keep it for several years and you want/need the 'normal' range/comfort in the winter time, buy and install the diesel heater now before winter comes. It is *the* answer for an all electric car which can't use residual engine heat to keep the windows fog-free and the occupants comfortable

Don

 

[iwatson]

But . . . . if you bought the car (vs leasing it) and you plan to keep it for several years and you want/need the 'normal' range/comfort in the winter time, buy and install the diesel heater now before winter comes. It is *the* answer for an all electric car which can't use residual engine heat to keep the windows fog-free and the occupants comfortable

Don

Thanks Don, Yes we bought it and Yes we plan to keep it for a long time.

The discussion always seems to come back to the diesel heater....But here's why I'm hesitant to bite that much off

1) Some winters here are rather mild (Last year was unusually cold for everybody)
2) My wife runs in a general circle of 5 to 10 miles from home so generally speaking range shouldn't be an issue for her most of the time even with heater on.
3) The diesel heater option is likely rather expensive for a boost that's only needed a few times a year. She has other options when she goes to visit her parents....She could take the mini-van, or plug-in at their house while visiting, there's even a free 240v charging station that's roughly halfway to their house.
4) As a DIY project it sounds more involved than I want to tackle so I'd have to hire someone to install it.

After we get through this first winter and see how things go I may change my mind about the diesel heater, but I believe a solution like a $25 electric blanket may give her a little more range on those days she needs it without a lot of $$$$$$

 

[DonDakin]

I think the discussion comes back to the diesel heater because that just does the job.

Everything else fixes part of the problem but not entirely. I found heated insoles in my boots gave me the best bang per watt-hour. Warm feet go along way.... Also preheating in a heated garage can give you a lot to start with.

But heated insoles do nothing for passenger comfort and window fogging which are the other 2 big concerns in the winter.

You have the right approach. Start small Go incrementally and try a few things. If your not going far the car is perfect as is. If you need to go far then you plan for recharging or your just more uncomfortable for that trip. everyone reacts to being uncomfortable differently. You situation is fairly unique to you so after your first winter you will have a better idea of what driving the imiev in the winter is all about. Then you can update us....

Don....

 

[Don]

The discussion always seems to come back to the diesel heater....But here's why I'm hesitant to bite that much off

1) Some winters here are rather mild (Last year was unusually cold for everybody)
2) My wife runs in a general circle of 5 to 10 miles from home so generally speaking range shouldn't be an issue for her most of the time even with heater on.
3) The diesel heater option is likely rather expensive for a boost that's only needed a few times a year. She has other options when she goes to visit her parents....She could take the mini-van, or plug-in at their house while visiting, there's even a free 240v charging station that's roughly halfway to their house.

I not only hear you, but I'm in exactly the same boat ;-)

Last winter (our second with the car) was unusually brutal even down here on the Gulf Coast where we almost never see snow/ice or even have hard freezes - We had it all last winter and the wife managed to slip and fall on the ice crossing the street and broke her wrist requiring surgery with a plate and lots of screws. BAD winter!

I would *like* to be able to justify putting a diesel heater in our car, but as you say, it might only see use a handful of times each year. Our commutes are short enough that we can afford to make full use of the heater and still get home without worry

Preheating with an L2 EVSE before you leave is important and since your wife can also charge at her parents house, she can preheat there too, so even on that longer trip, she can be comfortable both ways. Preheating with the OEM L1 EVSE just doesn't do much - It only supplies about 1,000 watts and it can't heat and charge at the same time. If all you are using is the OEM unit, I highly recommend you send it in to EVSE Upgrade and have it modified for L1/L2 use at 12 amps. If you have a 240 outlet at home and one at her parents house, you'll probably be all set for the coming winter

Don

 

[iwatson]

Thanks Don,

I've already had the upgrade done! At our house she uses 240V but her parents live in an apartment that has a garage but only 120V available in the garage. Sorry to hear about your wife's fall. I didn't realize that Biloxi had snow and ice this past winter.

Thanks also to DonDakin for your point of view!

 

[RobertC]

Okay Plan B: Has anyone tried one of the 12 volt cigarette lighter plug electric blankets? I know the i-miev has the seat heater, so how about a blanket over you while you drive that's electrically heated.
The seat heater is fine for keeping your butt and back warm, but my feet, legs and front would get cold, so more often than not I'd go back to cranking the heat and down would go my range.

I have not tried a 12volt blanket in my car, but with the seat heater on and the blanket covering your front and legs, you might stay comfy warm?

I used the 12 volt electric blanket all last winter in New Jersey where it gets cold and it works great!

If you need maximum range from your MiEV in the winter, do the following:
1. Apply Rain-X Anti-Fog to your interior windows. I applied this product once last winter and it worked great and lasted the whole winter.

2. Preheat with the remote for at least 20 minutes before you leave while you are plugged into a Level 2 EVSE.
It is also best if you can keep your MiEV in a garage at night to keep your battery from getting too cold.

3. Before you start the car, turn off the heater and fan, select upper vent, and do not set to recirculate the inside air, because recirculated air fogs up the windshield.

4. Turn the seat heater on.
5. Wear your normal outdoor winter clothes including a warm jacket, and wrap your legs and lower torso in the 12 volt electric blanket.

You can wear gloves if you want, but remember that the best way to keep your hands and feet warm in the winter is to keep your torso warm. When your torso gets cold, your body stops sending blood to your hands and feet in order to keep your vital organs warm. I have spent many winters working outside in the cold and I know that the best way to keep your hands and feet warm is to keep your core warm.

The electric heater in the MiEV works well and I use it when I don't need the full range of the car, but the best way to keep the electric heater from reducing your range is to keep it turned off.

 

[Don]

I got a bottle of the Rain-X Anti Fog for Christmas 2012 - Sadly, it didn't do a thing to prevent (or even ease) the fogging problems I've experienced

My best 'solution' so far is to turn on the minimal in the defrost mode and then push the A/C button as soon as any fog starts to form - This combination works great

Don

 

[iwatson]

RobertC,

I really liked your reply. The pictures really made it! Felt like I was watching an infomercial. But seriously really good stuff! I'm going to print it off and give it to my wife as a guide to maximize winter driver range. Thanks again!

 

[RobertC]

I got a bottle of the Rain-X Anti Fog for Christmas 2012 - Sadly, it didn't do a thing to prevent (or even ease) the fogging problems I've experienced

I applied Rain-X Anti-Fog to the drivers side of my windshield and not the passenger side.
From this photo you can really see the difference.
My wife, who was sitting in the passenger seat this morning, let me know that she did not appreciate my experiment.
She said, "Can't you get that off of the windshield. I can't see. This is really irritating."
The sacrifices we must make for science.

 

[DonDakin]

Last winter I also used rain x for the interior and I found that it did work but not perfectly and in some areas not really at all. I guess you get mixd results depending on the humidity and temperature. Also the number of passengers makes a difference. I eventually stopped applying it because it was difficult to get it on the windshield and it didn't work really well.

The interior rain X will help but I don't think you can get the same results as with bringing in fresh dry air that unfortunately is cold.

I do agree that keeping the car inside a somewhat heated garage and preheating it will really be best for the battery and passenger comfort..

Don.....

 

[Don]

Last winter I also used rain x for the interior and I found that it did work but not perfectly and in some areas not really at all. I guess you get mixd results depending on the humidity and temperature. Also the number of passengers makes a difference. I eventually stopped applying it because it was difficult to get it on the windshield and it didn't work really well.

That mimics my experience exactly

Down here with the high humidity, even with relatively warm winter temps we get lots of fog on the inside glass and the Rain-X anti-fog didn't seem to make any difference. You're exactly correct that additional passengers make it LOTS worse - 4 of us regularly go to Sunday dinner, a trip which is only 6 or 7 miles away. The running joke for the foggy last half of the trip is . . . . "Somebody in this car is still breathing . . . . I told you all to QUIT that until we get there" :lol:

The good news is, even with the heater running, adding the A/C for a brief period quickly eases the fogging by lowering the humidity in the car . . . . so everyone can take a deep breath and we can still see where we're going ;-)

Don

 

[PV1]

If only we had a heating element pad in the windshield like the old EV1, fogging wouldn't be a problem. It would only take 40 or 50 watts to keep the windshield warm.