Long Distance Travel Battery Thermal Concerns

[PV1]

When I use a quick charger, the interior fan and the battery fan both run as long as the charger pushes more than at least 10 kW and charge level is below 66%. Even if the pack is cool, the fans still run even though the AC does not. The battery fan is hard to hear over the quick charger, but listening under the car just ahead of the rear tire will allow you to hear it.

Regardless of temperature, my fans seem to shut down right around 66-67%, except the last time using the Eaton charger where the fans shut down, then cycled a few times quickly before shutting down for good (though it still functions, just got confused that one time).

There is a vent on the battery pack, but I don't believe it lets in much air. besides, who knows how tight the service plug and the air inlet to the battery is.

 

[DonDakin]

Well another long trip for the imiev. This is the longest one yet.
From Montreal to Gatineau (just accross the river from Ottawa) 392.7 Km (245.4 Miles) round trip.
It was an over-nighter to see the fireworks for Canada day July 1st.

First stop was in Vaudreuil at the QC, only 22 km from home but I wanted to stop to QC and push the charge up a little for the 92 km trek to Montebello QC. Winds are normally from the west but fortunately we picked up a gentle east wind which made that 92 kms (57.5 Miles) no problem. Unfortunately the temp was 28 deg c (83 Deg F) so keeping the battery cool was more challenging. QC in Montebello and then the next stop was l'Ange-gardien quick charger only 42 km (26.25 Miles) away but on the highway. By this time thunder storms were setting in and our last 40 km to the hotel was under a deluge of rain. I could have made it from Montebello to Gatineau but I stopped in l'Ange gardien so that I would have more charge left when arriving at the hotel In case I needed it for a bit of local travel.

The trip there was 4.5 hours. The hotel has a charger and I was able to top up there on level 2. Battery temp was about 33 deg on arrival at the hotel.

Had a really nice overnight stay and returned home the next day with a little help from Mother Nature. The thunder storms had dropped the temp to 13 deg c overnight and winds were gusting 10-20 km per hour from the west which would give us a nice tail wind home. The battery temp had dropped to 20 deg C in the morning. Since it was cool and sunny I would be able to use all the ac directed into the battery for cooling about 20 km (12.5 Miles) before we got to the next QC.

Took a more direct route no highway to Montebello for an easy 72 km leg with a nice ~15 km tailwind. Then a QC to 81% and restart the QC to get up to 92% for the 92 kms to get back to Vaudreuil. Tail wind was great and some very careful driving by the Mrs got us there in a little over an hour of drive time. Then a five minute stop to go from 20% to 42% gave us plenty for the 22 km (14 Mile) ride home. Total time to return home 3.5 hours. About an hour less than going. We may have been able to make it all the way home without the last QC but that would certainly involve the turtle and some nail biting. So I opted for a really cost effective $0.87 final QC of 3.3 KW in 5 minutes.

All in the charging was $18.00 CDN round trip.

On the way there and back the game plan was to drive conservatively until we were sure we could make it and then "blow the budget" on ac to cool the battery and the cabin as needed.
This was basically a fun trip but you really have to be in the mindset of enjoying the journey. You can't focus on getting there because it will just make you miserable.

Also it went better when my wife was driving. It gave her something to do during the long drive. She bought into the game of watching the range remaining and the distance to go on the GPS and work the driving skills to get a comfortable margin. That left me free to take notes and fool around with canion and plan battery cooling and provide a very little feedback on average wh/km burn and relax.

We were also fortunate, no waiting at any of the QC's.

On the battery temp front you can see that the farther you want to go in one day the colder a travel season you should pick. Unfortunately it's always nice to go somewhere when it's warm. Those two things and kind of incompatible. It would be nice if we could get a usable 20 kwh pack in the imiev hopefully when the battery warranty is finished we will be able to safely DIY a larger pack for a reasonable price.

Other thought on this trip:

I do have to admit that after 3 hours on the way there the wife and I were discussing the wisdom of taking the Imiev rather than the Nissan Rogue. I don't know if I would do this type of thing again.

I think the limiting factor is the time in the car. After 4 hours it's starts getting long for my taste. If you are willing to stay in a car for that amount of time or more you have to be traveling at fast highways speeds to at least to have the feeling that you are making progress.
As much as we love our two iMievs they really don't excel at this kind of trip. I have been waiting for almost 4 years since I got the car for the QC infrastructure to be built in the area and now that it's getting pretty good it's a bit sad to realize that I don't really want to be in my iMiev for more then 4 hours. So the only way I can do iMiev electric road trips is to turn the trip into a sightseeing vacation over many days. Which I may do, but it really changes the purpose/mindset of the trip.

Using four hour time as a guideline and a great QC network this kind of limits you in the iMiev to about 250 KM (156 Mile) max travel per day give or take. In a GAS car you could do 440 KM (275 Miles) on the highway in the same time, almost double.

I bumped into a pretty clever co-worked at work a few weeks back. He bought a Kia soul EV last year and he loves it. Would never go back to a gas car. But when we discussed QC's he thinks that the QC network is a red herring. He does not believe people will do long distance travel in EV's using QC's. He thinks long distance travel will be reserved for gas cars. My opinion was once we have 200 Mile EV's and a good QC network it should be doable but who knows. Maybe all EV's farther down the road will be more like the BWM i3. If you could do 250 Miles in an EV and then have a small gas engine kick in for another 200 miles and you also had a good QC network then you would have flexibility and choice and I think the masses would accept that.

Well Anyways the iMiev is still a fantastic urban warrior and I have no regrets about buying 2 of them.

Don.......

 

[PV1]

Longer range EVs certainly make travelling easier. I think the record for US coast-to-coast in an EV is just under 58 hours, set by a Tesla Model S with Auto-pilot driving most of the trip. According to Google Maps, the fastest route between LA and NYC takes 41 hours.

The i-MiEV is likely one of the most difficult vehicles to do long distance in, both because of the smallest battery on the market and the relatively puny 3.3 kW charger. Put a 6.6 kW or even a 10 kW on-board charger and a 25 kWh battery in and things get a lot easier. When I was plotting out the route for my planned Normal, IL trip, having a portable CHAdeMO charger cut my charging time by more than half, just by increasing the power I can get from a level 2 station from 3.3 kW to 6.6 kW (13.2 kW in a few places with dual stations) for a route with almost all level 2 charging. A Tesla, on the other hand, can do the trip with 2-3 stops at Superchargers, and only spend about 1.5-2 hours plugged in (all this one way).

Despite the energy limitations, the i-MiEV is the only car I can spend a lot of time in and not feel worn out afterwards.

 

[wmcbrine]

having a portable CHAdeMO charger

Eh, have you mentioned this before? I'd like to hear more.

 

[PV1]

having a portable CHAdeMO charger

Eh, have you mentioned this before? I'd like to hear more.

http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2567

Haven't built it yet, but it's basically a pair of Arduino controlled Focus Electric on-board chargers with J1772 inputs and a CHAdeMO connector that's plugs into the car.

 

[wmcbrine]

Haven't built it yet

Ah, I was getting a different impression from the post above. Yeah, I did see that thread before. Well, good luck with it.

 

[PV1]

Yeah, I didn't make it very clear. Thanks.

 

[blackheart]

I'm overnighting on my first long distance trip in the imiev.
Portland OR to Mt Vernon WA in about 8 hours. 250 miles in 7 qc stops. Left just before 5am with a full charge and arrived just after noon with 14miles left. And will make the return tonight, leaving at 4pm.
Over the limit for my little city car for sure. But it did great. This was only to prove to myself that it is indeed possible - but maybe not entirely practicle.
It is just a different way of doing it. Instead of being stressed about 'getting there' i took several walks, got coffee, window shopped, etc. It was actually pretty nice.

I am really hoping that my gamble plays out, that when the OEM battery pack goes out, i will be able to replace it with something that will allow a longer range. My hope is that there will be some aftermarketer that will see value in making higher density packs for older leafs and mievs and keep them going.

I hope to post some stats when i get home.

This will be 500miles in a weekend.

 

[JoeS]

blackheart, congratulations for biting the bullet and opting for an adventure! Sounds as though you got into the rhythm of DCQC'ing, as there is always something to do while the car charges - in my case with the i-MiEV and its 80% charge, the car is always ready to go before I have a chance to go to the bathroom and grab a snack or explore the neighborhood.

I forget whether you have CaniOn and thus were able to record your battery temperatures, as successive driving and DCQC keeps raising the battery temperatures, which is the concern voiced on this thread.

When you finish your trip, you might post your statistics in the Maximum Miles Driven In One Day thread:
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=494

 

[blackheart]

blackheart, congratulations for biting the bullet and opting for an adventure! Sounds as though you got into the rhythm of DCQC'ing, as there is always something to do while the car charges - in my case with the i-MiEV and its 80% charge, the car is always ready to go before I have a chance to go to the bathroom and grab a snack or explore the neighborhood.

I forget whether you have CaniOn and thus were able to record your battery temperatures, as successive driving and DCQC keeps raising the battery temperatures, which is the concern voiced on this thread.

When you finish your trip, you might post your statistics in the Maximum Miles Driven In One Day thread:
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=494

I was planning on doing that - but I kept losing connection between my phone and Canion. The trip north, I nearly had the whole trip saved. The trip back, I ended up having to reconnect about 4 times.
But it did get as high as 108° - which I know is not good - but at every QC station, the charging cycle would switch on the AC and drop the battery temp down to about 95-100°.
I started the trip at 5am. But the return trip was at 4pm the second day. It didn't start well. The first charge station didn't work immediately for the two chargers before me. The guy that was leaving as I pulled up said that he needed to push in the reset (NRG station) and then it would finally start charging. The guy who about to start when I pulled up had to get tech support on the phone but after about 15min was able to get his charge started. I don't have a fob for NRG yet, so I had to start my charge by calling support. Then I was on the phone with them trying all sorts of things. About 12ish attempts later, it finally started charging. - Mind you, this was the first QC on a trip of 7 charge stops. **It was not a happy start.
But the rest of the sessions went fine. Pulled right in, charged and left. The only other issue was I was third in line at the last stop ;-( But there was a guy there who had done a bunch of aero mods to his leaf, so it was enjoyable conversation.

OVERALL, as many here know - it is totally possible to make a long trip with supporting infrastructure. But my calculations were a bit off on how long it would take ;-(
therefore - pulled into home at 2:10am, up at 430am to come into work - this day may be touch and go.... But my Imiev was ready for battle again this morning!!

 

[JoeS]

blackheart, thank you for the account. I got exhausted just reading about it! You barely gave your car and hot battery pack a rest...

I had a fistful of charging cards for my cross-country trip - can't have too many! When planning and selecting possible EVSEs along a route, it's a good idea to identify who the EVSE is supplied by to be sure one has a card for it so as to speed things up and avoid having to make a phone call.

Back on topic:108degF (42degC) is rather warm for our battery pack, and nice to see that the aircon knocked the temperature down during charging. Another good case for the vent modification. To me it is weird that the battery aircon cooling normally stops before charging is complete - was that the case when this battery was that hot?

 

[blackheart]

I was kind of surprised that the air conditioning didn't come on when I was driving. It never went above 108.7°. It will be VERY rare that I do this trip again without the aid of a pusher trailer like Jray3 and I have talked about. But it was good to test the 'limits' of Jack and make sure that everything was in good order. To be honest - the first DCQC on this trip was my first connect to DCQC... EVER - not so much for pre-testing. Lets just do it...
Thankfully it all worked great! But the temps did tend to bother me.
Is there a thread for a possible vent modification?
Thanks

 

[PV1]

I'll be posting a tech reference article soon on how to do the battery cooling mod. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to cool the rear of the pack too well, but it's better than nothing.

108.7 F, that must be a pack average temperature. And here I am, worried about pack temps in the low 90's :lol: .

 

[blackheart]

I'll be posting a tech reference article soon on how to do the battery cooling mod. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to cool the rear of the pack too well, but it's better than nothing.

108.7 F, that must be a pack average temperature. And here I am, worried about pack temps in the low 90's :lol: .

The 108.7 was a read off the Canion app. I would then pull into a charge station and plug in, before the charge was over, it was back down to 100. Then, before pulling back onto the free way, it had already hit 102 and would slowly climb back up before the next charging station. Most of the time I would see it about 105-106. So, I would assume that Canion is taking an average of the different cell temps, so some would be higher and some lower.
rm

 

[DonDakin]

Well I'm on vacation again this week so another long distance iMiev trip this time 295 KM (184 Miles) into the mountains north of Montreal.

Thanks to the government program quick chargers are popping up like mushrooms all over the province. They are all on plug share.

Mount Tremblant is 130 KM (81 Miles) north of Montreal with a elevation change of 592 meters up (1941 ft) and 433 meters (1420 ft) down to get there.

There are ample QC stations for the trip that you can even skip one along the way. I was more concerned with the battery
temp. It as a real hot day for Montreal 30-33 deg C (86-92 Deg F).

I quick charged 6 times, a couple of them being only 5 minute "security" charges. I could have avoided those stops but with the AC blasting I was loosing
10-15 KMs off a charge. Mind you it was so hot that I would have needed some AC in the cabin even if I did not cool the battery.

Almost all the time I had the AC on MAX with the fan on MAX and the knob blowing most it into the battery and a little into
the cabin. (1 click of the dial on the face)

All went well in the end. One segment of the ride up was a little bit of a nail biter as I arrived at one quick charger with 5 KM left. It was not a good feeling
driving on an isolated stretch of highway at 80 KPH with less then 10 KM of RR. I started with a 20 KM margin (43 KM to the destination and 63 KM RR with the AC on)
but the climb just ate that margin away. I didn't know the elevation I had to climb but I thought 20 KM
would be enough. It turns out that it was enough but I turned off the AC half way there just in case. I arrived with
about 13% battery.

This was an all highway trip, I was traveling pretty fast 85 KPH on the way up and 85-105 KPH on the way down which was much easier and fun.
My first all highway high (iMiev high) speed trip.

Basically I was able to keep the battery temps from going ballistic but it did take full MAX AC all the time.

A fun experiment and again the little iMiev made it all the way. Got home with 18%.

Here are a couple of CANION shots of battery temps.

The relevant section is the last 5 hours or so. I started with 92% SOC and about 26.5 Deg C battery temp.

http://imgur.com/a/TNJPq

 

[mdbuilder]

So your battery temp only slightly exceeded the peak ambient temps.

 

[PV1]

I guess pressing MAX is the key. That last trip to Butler pegged one of the sensors at 107 F (41.6 C) with the fan on high and airflow one click to dash vents.

 

[DonDakin]

I believe the highest temp cell did make it to 40 deg C on the last quick charge.

It would be nice to have all the cells below 30 deg c but you know they say 40 is the new 30 so i guess if all the cells are below 40 deg c on a trip like this then you are doing well.

Don....

 

[JoeS]

DonDakin, thanks for the post and screenshots. I'm impressed that you're able to manually lower the battery temperature significantly when you're driving. Now, THAT's something Mitsubishi should have implemented automatically. Also, it seems flaky to me that the forced-air battery cooling actually ceases towards the end of DCQC.

 

[rkarl89203]

I don't know if I should post again on this thread or not (lol) but here's my experience with DCQC near Chicago.
I had a 100.5 degree temp during DCQC near Palatine. The AC kicked on BUT my Canion keeps crashing so was not able to get an 'after' temp. Just an aside: with EVGO putting up QCs everywhere here, at $7-10 a charge will not be quick charging much anyways.