Help with problems with the 12 v battery

[casperchristophersen]

Dear forum

I am stuck with a problem with the 12 v battery in my Peugeot Ion 2013 (I think, maybe 2012) that I can't fix. I really hope that you guys can help me out.

I am a total rookie in terms of cars both electric and ICE, but I will try to describe the history of the issue as well as I can.

Two/three weeks ago the red battery signal started showing. This came after a period where the car had been used less, then usual because of the Corona stuff, but had been used at least once a week. Then a couple of days later the yellow alarm signal started showing. Then a couple of days later everything in the car started blinking and it stopped just before I could get it to the garage.

I got towed to the garage and thay said that the problem was that the car wouldn't charge the 12 v battery. But didn't know how to fix it.

I then found a guy who knew a lot about the Ion/Imiew/C-zero. He took the relay from the fog lights and changed it with the one for the 12 v battery ( I am not exactly sure what it is called). Then the car charged the 12 v battery. But the red and yellow alarms were still showing. He removed the minus thing from the 12 v for 15 minutes and the alarms stopped showing, but the next day thay were back.

He couldn't figure out why but told me to change the 12 v battery and see if that would make a difference. I changed it but while changing it me and my friend noticed that it made a little zapping sound and some relays were clicking, when we connected the minus pole. My friend said that that was bad because it meant that somewhere in the car something was using power and that was draining the car, but the Imiew/C-zero/Ion-guy said that all cars have current in the background for alarms and stuff. Well anyways it worked. I drove for a while with no alarms in the dashboard and again later in the evening. I also checked with a multimeter. The battery said 12,5 when the car was off, but 14,3 when I turned it on, which meant that the car was charging the 12 v battery

BUT the next morning the alarms were back. I don't know what to do. I am going to take it to a garage as soon as possible so that they can read the alarm codes. But I am afraid that they won't know what to do either. I also dont know what to do with the car in the meantime. Is it okay I let it just stand in the street if its draning the 12 v battery?

 

[Al123]

I am not an expert, and I am new to I-Miev as well. My I-Miev has a high drain on the 12V battery. In one week it discharges the battery significantly. I understand that the alarm is partly to be blamed. I lock the car by the switch on the door, and that doesn't set the alarm. I don't lock the car with the fob. When I plan not to drive the car for a while, I disconnect the negative battery lead, and top up the 12V battery.
If you use the car infrequently, I would charge the battery in between. I disconnect the negative for charging.
Lead acid batteries degrade fast if left discharged. You could also once in a while just turn the car on.
If you see 14+ volt on the battery, it is charging. The battery can show 12.5V and be half discharged.
Toping it up with a smart charger is a best bet. The advice you got from your friends sounds good.

 

[JoeS]

Don't know if this will apply, but note this post by PV1

http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3067&p=40883#p40883

"Both of my i-MiEVs have this quirk where if the car is locked, and I go to retrieve something out of it with the simple process of unlock doors with key fob, open a door, close it, and lock the car with the fob, I'll have a dead 12 volt battery within a week. If I unlock the doors with the fob, open a door, start the car, shut it off, close the door, and lock it with the fob, the car can sit for a month+ and be able to start without a jump. Whatever drains the battery, having the car fully cycled before locking the doors lets it power down successfully."

As a side note, I never understood why it's necessary to disconnect a terminal when externally charging a 12v battery, as any slight quiescent drain will be overwhelmed by the charger, and the charger's voltage regulator will prevent any excessive (damaging) voltages.

 

[casperchristophersen]

Thanks for replying

I just got word from the garage. It is Bosch mechanic so I figured they would be the best to know. He said something like I cant really figure out what the problem is, but it must be the converter. And that is like 40.000 kr (like 8.000 dollars).

Damn.

I think I will see if the key thing maybe will help. Should I then recharge the 12v battery somehow or could I let the car do it? I don't have the fob car key, only the manual one and I never lock it and that hasn't been a problem so far

 

[JoeS]

The battery said 12,5 when the car was off, but 14,3 when I turned it on, which meant that the car was charging the 12 v battery...

Correct, and that would rule out the DC-DC converter portion of the OBC as it takes the car's main battery high voltage and converts it into ~14.4vdc to charge the 12v battery. Hopefully that is not your problem as, yes, the price of that OBC is ridiculous and, unfortunately, it has proven to be the car's Achille's Heel.

Next step I'd suggest is to measure the quiescent current being drawn from the 12v battery. Do that by disconnecting one of the terminals and putting a milliammeter in series with the battery connection. I don't remember what the measured number should be (it's here somewhere on this forum), but I would guess that anything over about 20ma would be excessive. This tiny amount of power is used to keep some of the car's systems alive - such as the car alarm. If you measure significantly more than that amount then the next problem will be to try to isolate and identifuy what is drawing that power. That is not a trivial challenge.

Anyone have any more suggestions for Casper?

Edit: clarified OBC vs. DC-DC.

 

[Al123]

I suspect that the lack of use could be the reason for the battery being low.
If the slow drain is cumulatively greater than the infrequent charging, the battery will discharge, and if left discharged for a while, the capacity will go down.
A battery load test would clarify that.
If the car is providing 14.4V when it is on, or being charged, then that is all it has to do. I would check if the 14.4V is staying on consistently.
The battery voltage is accessible inside the car. The minus is any connected bare metal, and the plus is accessible in a fuse box. My I-Miev doesn’t have a fuse in slot #6, and the 12 volts can be picked up there.
I have stored my I-Miev last winter, and I had the negative disconnected most of the time. I have connected it and turned the car on only once a week, so it would not forget any settings, and I think, it didn’t. Without the slow drain, I have topped up the battery only once a month and it was always almost full.
Could it be that a bad connection or maybe a bad ground somewhere could cause the 12V to be read incorrectly?

 

[casperchristophersen]

Now I am back from the mechanic. He says that everything in the car seems to be working just fine and that I should just drive it and see what happens. I drove it yesterday without a problem except for the two alarms being turned on.

A funny thing is that when I have driven it for like 30 minutes, turn it off and turn it on again the red and yellow alarm are turned off and I can drive it without them coming back on again. But when I then come back to the car the next day the alarms are back.

The error code from the cars computer is: POA09 - DC/DC-converter - function error (my translations)

I have tried locking the car and not locking the car in different ways with no difference

Do you make anything from this?

 

[JoeS]

The good news is that your car charges and drives properly.

There's a school of thought that ignorance is bliss, that all warnings should be ignored, and if the car makes strange noises simply turn up the volume on the radio to drown them out. :twisted: Some cars have been driven hundreds of thousands of miles like that. :roll:

Agree that you should keep driving but I'd be inclined to plug in one of those small voltmeters into the auxiliary port to monitor your 12v battery to ensure that the dc-dc is consistently providing ~14.3vdc while you are driving and, when you first get into the car and turn the key and before going into READY that the voltage reading is above 12.0vdc.

If anything changes, please do let us know, and wish you luck!

 

[PV1]

My first thought was DC-DC converter, which given that error code, may still have an issue developing. I second a constant monitor on the battery voltage while driving to make sure the converter is staying active.

My one car had an issue a while back in that it didn't want to charge. Drove to work in crap weather, plugged it in, but it didn't charge. Another plugin had an almost immediate error and no charge. Next charge only went to 70% and stopped. But for the next week, it charged fine until I parked it (Incase it isn't well-known, the on-board charger and DC-DC converter are both in the same box, but are separate circuit boards). Sometimes you'll run into weird issues like this that do go away on their own. Even my Bolt will sometimes through messages on the screen to service major components when there's no operational flaws.

Another thought is, how old is the 12 volt battery?

 

[smueller99au]

Hi all.
I'd like to continue this post from Casper here. I've bought his car knowing that it had a problem. I have found a complete spare OBC module that I can use to replace the existing one, but I was also thinking to see if I could fix the problem before removing the existing module.

A little more about the problem first:
[*] The battery seems to be pretty much new. It was 11.8V float when I received the car so I started by charging it up. It sits around 12.8V now. I was expecting 13.8V but it was not to be.
[*] When the car is set to READY the charger kicks in... sometimes... The first time I tried it I simply got the battery light and then 5 seconds later the Exclamation mark. The second and third times, the battery light didn't come on for a little while, approx 10 and then 30 seconds. Eventually, when I took the capture below it was approx 80 seconds.
[*] Plugging in with Peugeot's DiagBox I took and cleared the fault codes, and start the measurements plugin. See below for the voltage curve measured at the ECU. What seems to be happening is that the charger is giving a too-high voltage, starting at around 14.6V and then heading slowly up to 14.7V. As soon as it hits 14.8V the charger shuts off (over voltage protection of some kind?). This curve is repeatable - if the charger kicks in at all. This morning it didn't even register on my multimeter as going over 13V.


The fault code is P0A09 Converter Fault - that seems to be the result of the failed DC/DC converter.

I have not removed the OBC from the car yet. I also have not removed the bottom plate to have a look at capacitors or connectors yet. I thought someone here might have a good idea where to start looking.

One thing I did notice on the circuit diagrams is that there's some kind of connector in the wiring loom between the OBC and the battery. Any idea where this might be? It could be corrosion.

The only good picture I have of the charger circuit board is from Péter Varsányi, a Hungarian fella who did a great write-up on these chargers, also the newer replacement model. Use Google translate: https://villanyautosok.hu/2018/03/20/peugeot-ion-fedelzeti-tolto-javitasa/

So, does anyone have any idea where I would find the connector between the OBC and the battery, and secondly where should I look on the circuit board for some kind of regulator circuit?

Many thanks for the help!!

Stephen
Copenhagen area, Denmark.

 

[Don]

Anyone have any more suggestions for Casper?

How old is the 12 volt battery? iMiEV's are notorious for all sorts of problems associated with weak 12 volt batteries, as that battery runs every computer in the car. If the battery is more than 3 or 4 years old, swapping it for a new one would be my very first troubleshooting check, especially now that you know for sure your DC to DC converter is charging it properly

Don

 

[kiev]

...
So, does anyone have any idea where I would find the connector between the OBC and the battery, and secondly where should I look on the circuit board for some kind of regulator circuit?

Many thanks for the help!!

Stephen
Copenhagen area, Denmark.

The 12V line connector to the battery is located directly on the "back" of the OBC, i.e. toward the front of the car. It is a black connector with a single blade terminal that is hard-mounted with a steel bracket to the OBC housing. i think it has a large gage white wire.

This is a picture of the connector disassembled, it was quite difficult to extract the terminal.

 

[smueller99au]

Hi Don.
Thanks for the reply. As I mentioned the battery is pretty new, as in within 6 months. I’ll go check if it has a date stamp on it to confirm though.

What I’m worried about is that the charger drives 14.8V!! This is why it’s shutting down. I managed to get it to drive today at 14.6 volts all the way home. But this morning it didn’t even think about charging. I never saw about 12.8V on the meter.

Are you sure it’s 12v battery related?

@kiev: thanks for the tip with the connector. I’ll see if there’s some corrosion on it.

Cheers
Stephen

 

[smueller99au]

A little update for you.
Battery is new - Exide Premium EA386 (UK:054TE). I just can't find the date stamp on it.

Found the right connector but haven't had a chance to pull it apart yet. I'll try that on the weekend.

I drove it 6 times today. The first 2 times the charger worked as it should. The 3rd time it failed so I immediately switched off and the on-Ready again. This fixed it. Same thing happened the next 2 times. Each time it failed (battery light actually never went out, then exclamation light comes on a few seconds later) a shut down and restart worked. Odd. But it indicates to me some kind of relay is faulty or storage circuit fault (capacitor?). If I can't find anything outside the OBC then I'll have to open it up and start replacing the blue caps on the 12V side.

Any other ideas?

Cheers.
Stephen.

 

[smueller99au]

Further update. Problem is fixed. I went through all the connectors, earth wires, etc. as per the service manual and nothing seemed wrong. Did the diagnostics tests also as per the service manual but it passed everything. So, nothing more to do except replace the entire OBC.

Well, this sorted out the problem. No more error, charging voltage back to 14.4V again. Perfect.

I pulled the cover on the old charger but nothing looked 'smoked' on first visual inspection. Should I start by replacing all the capacitors? Or does someone have an idea where the output voltage is regulated from?

Cheers.
Stephen.

 

[kiev]

It's in the bottom side plenum of the OBC; the upper side is the HV battery charrger and the lower plenum is the DC/DC converter used to charge the LV Aux battery. There may be a photo posted in one of the threads here, but not sure exactly where just now.

found it posted by skylogger here:
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4079&start=20#p36638

 

[smueller99au]

OK, it seems I jumped the gun here.

DC/DC charger worked fine for two weeks. But it has stopped again now. Odd.

Diagbox reads P0A09 Converter fault from the EV ECU. But it's interesting that there is an older fault P1A44 (leak sensor - earth fault) 20km previous. So, what happened?

The first sign was when I started the car at work it was a little delayed in going to Ready, like maybe 2 seconds more. Unfortunately I already hit the gear stick into D and went for the accelerator before it was completely Ready, giving a delayed take-off. I never do this, but on this day I simply was not thinking properly (brain in auto mode). When I reached the top of the parking ramp the car died. Ready disappeared and I had to switch off, wait for yellow ! to vanish then start again. It was fine getting home.

Next day, in the morning, the battery light came once more indicating no DC/DC charging. I did the old switch off/switch on procedure and it was back fine again all the way to work (6 km I drive). On the return home, same thing happened in the parking lot and at the top of the ramp it went to turtle mode. After a reset it was ok for 5-6 seconds then again turtle mode. It did this 3-4 more times on the way home until eventually I just limped home in turtle mode.

Note, the car charges perfectly. The DC/DC charger also works but shuts down immediately (I can see 14.5V sometimes more for about 1 second).

I read out the OBC diagnostics codes as below, but I cannot reset them for some reason. This makes me believe they are permanent. Codes from the OBC (all status temporary):
02 Charge fault (traction battery disconnected)
13 Communication fault with the electric motor ECU (MCU)
29 Loss of communication with the traction battery ECU

So, what have I been doing for diagnostics?

• I went for diagram ACA03488 showing the DC/DC charging circuit and followed EVECU P0A09 chart http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/i-miev/online/Service_Manual/2013/54/html/M154920520005600ENG.HTM.
• I replaced all relays in the 3 relay boxes at the front of the car. I have a complete spare car so I could change all the interesting ones out. No change.
• I swapped the 12V battery for my iMiev that works perfectly fine. No change.
• I have checked all earth connections, all interconnectors, all module connectors. I have not looked specifically for the CAN connectors yet, but that's next.
• I checked the voltage at EV-ECU C-106 pin 2, OBC E-03 pin 8 and 7, earth at E-03 pin 10, earth on the OBC.
• I checked the voltage on C-111 pin 116 at READY. This gives 9.5V (my iMiev gives 11.1 as the battery is then charging). This pin is OUTPUT from EV-ECU to OBC.
• I checked the voltage on C-111 pin 127 at READY. This gives 10.0V for 1 second then 0V (my iMiev gives 10.6 as the battery is charging). This pin is OUTPUT from OBC to EV-ECU.
• When I link C-111 pin 127 and pin 116 together the battery light goes out so the EV-ECU seems to be doing the correct thing. This points to the OBC stopping the charging process.

One more piece of information - the AC compressor was loose before all of this happened so i strapped it down with strip ties, with rubber between the metal. I need to remember to check this tomorrow - maybe there is something wrong here causing the faults. Odd, but weirder things have happened.

Why does the DC/DC charger stop? This is what I need to determine. CAN-bus between OBC and MCU/BMU? I have an OBDLinkLX and the Peugeot ACTIA cable. Is there a way to capture all CAN data to see what is talking to what on the bus? Maybe I can see some faults in there, or corruption? There are no diag codes to indicate faults so far, and I can communicate to the OBC via Diagbox.

Maybe the replacement charger has some loose wires in it.... :-/

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Really... I have tried nearly everything I have so far.


Cheers

 

[kiev]

i doubt that you could have the same problem in the OBC, after switching out the OBC. Did you check the fuses on the DC/DC board?

Most likely there is an issue with:

12V aux battery is too low, old, weak or worn out. When you read less than 12V on those test circuits, then your aux is not up to a sufficient level, e.g. 9.5 - 10.6, these are too low and not normal. Maybe the car will run, but it may cause issues too. Either pull the necessary maintenance or buy a new aux and keep on top of it. A fully charged and function aux battery is a critical item in these cars.

The EV-ECU may have a fault.

Not sure what would happen when you short wires together, that is not something i would recommend unless you hae a schematic and absolutely know the circuit function.

 

[smueller99au]

Thanks for your response Kiev.

I checked the one fuse I could see on the DC/DC board before installation. I also checked the connectors and resealed the covers. I hope nothing has come loose, but I had better remove the module again and check.

Battery is brand new. I have mentioned this before but couldn’t confirm it at the time. Now I can. The previous owner replaced it 2 months back. I have also charged it fully and performed a load test on it as per the Mitsubishi guide. No problems here. But I agree the voltage at the EVECU seems low. But it is on both cars when I stop the dc/dc charger on the good one.

The shooting of the two wires is described in the Mitsubishi manual. The 116 wire is sending a 12v signal to the charger to start the dc/dc charger and the 127 line is a response from the charger to say it’s all good. There is no problem giving the direct feedback.
This also indicates that the EVECU is performing correctly because it’s the response (127) that is failing after 1 second and not the request (116). My next step may be to interrupt the 116 line and switch it manually a few seconds after ready to ensure correct traction battery voltage.

Note that the same occurs when plugged in to an AC socket. The AC/DC charger works fine, pulling in the necessary relays, but the DC/DC charger operates for only 1 second.

Never mind. I’ll progress with checking the AC (I still don’t believe it’s that) and the CAN bus (Comms to BMS and MCU). And then it’s pull the obc again and check inside.

Cheers anyway

 

[kiev]

Sorry to be of no help to you. This is the first time to see such an issue and the DC/DC circuit board has not been traced out yet.

Looking at the OBC codes you pulled [02,13,29] in the FSM:

02 Load Connection Abnormal (main battery not connected)
Check Conditions
The on board chargger control power supply voltage is more than 8 V. [should be 5V]
While the on board chargger is allowed to be charged from the EV-ECU.

Judgement Criterion
The output (terminal) voltage is less than 184 V.

13 EV-ECU lost
Check Condition
5 seconds elapsed after the on board chargger control power supply voltage was more than 10 V and less than 16 V.

Judgement Criterion
For more than 3 seconds, the CAN communication data cannot be received from the EV-ECU.

29 Pilot Signal Abnormal
Check Conditions
The on board chargger control power supply voltage is more than 8 V.
While the on board chargger is allowed to be charged from the EV-ECU.
While the AC power supply is being input.

Judgement Criterion
The pilot signal duty ratio is less than 7 % for more than 2 seconds.
or
The pilot signal duty ratio is more than 97 % for more than 2 seconds.

i went to the symptoms chart to see if there may be some clues there and found that inspection procedure #2 in the symptoms chart has a wealth of connector information that i haven't seen before
[http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/i-miev/online/Service_Manual/2012/index_M1.htm ]

i see several references to the voltage being too high, and in previous posts you mentioned reading 14.8 for the aux. Unless it was really cold out, that is an abnormally high charging voltage for lead acid battery. Whatever regulates that to 14.4 may be defective, i just don't know where that is located in the system.

i suppose you checked the fusible link on the positive terminal of the aux battery, and any other fuses/links on that terminal?

After reading thru the FSM i'm gonna guess that something in the EV-ECU is not regulating properly; it allows that aux voltage to raise above the limits and this causes the OBC internal LV supply to exceed 8V [should be 5V], which throws the DTCs and shuts down the DC/DC.

Also you said it charges okay from the mains AC, so at least the HV half of the OBC is not affected, so the 02 and 29 codes are inaccurate. Leaving 13 which points to the EV-ECU.

There are several 12V inputs into the OBC control board thru connector E-03, one 12V is hot all the time on pin 7, another is controlled by the EV-ECU CHGB pin and sent thru the A-06X relay to pin 2, another controlled by the EV-ECU CTL pin thru relay A-08X to pin 8, and there is the 12V control signal lines DCSW and SDW from the EV-ECU on pin 4 and 11.

[diagrams to show most of this here: http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/i-miev/online/Service_Manual/img/90/HBT04E02AC00ENG.pdf and here http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/i-miev/online/Service_Manual/img/90/HBT04E01AF00ENG.pdf ]

[Skylogger found different pin numbers on his unit in the OBC trouble thread, but it was for a 2010 car
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4079&start=80#p36888 ]