Future Battery Replacement - A Better Battery?

[PV1]

If they simply replace each cell with a block of 18650 cells wired in parallel, and the blocks are wired in series like the existing cells are, then nothing should change except for an increase in capacity.

A box with the same dimensions as an LEV50 cell can fit 24 (possibly a few more) 18650 cells. Wire all of those cells in parallel, and the whole group will still be a 3.7 volt battery, but with ~80 Ah of capacity. Make 88 boxes of 18650 cells, and you now have the cell replacement for the LEV50 for the entire pack, giving the i-MiEV 26 kWh of capacity and 100+ miles of range (once the computer re-calibrates and opens up the additional capacity). The trick is using cells that can handle the amps drawn under full acceleration and quick charging, as well as adequately sinking the heat generated, especially on longer drives in the summer. Cell level fuses (like those used in Tesla modules) are also highly recommended.

 

[mdbuilder]

I would think if they used the best quality high amperage rated cells it ought to work OK with only air cooling. The i is a fairly low stress application compared to a Tesla, 49Kw = appr. 150 amps max / 24 = 6 to 7 amps per cell. "Quick charging" isn't even all that quick at that pack size, well under 2C for the chargers I've seen around here.

But yeah, there is no guarantee and there would be a big cost incentive to use less than the best cells.

 

[JoeS]

... I think the biggest issue will be tricking the BMS into still charging it, considering all the voltage and temperature sensors inside the pack.

Agree! If I were hacking the i-MiEV battery pack, this is the first thing I would want to be sure of before spending any time doing anything else.

All good ideas, and y'all noticed that I moved your posts into this topic-appropriate thread. :roll:

 

[Don]

By coincidence, the Segways also use 18650 cells wired in a configuration where 92 cells provide 76 volts @ about 5 amps. An OEM Segway battery is about $800 each (it uses two) and there are several folks who are offering 'rebuilt' battery packs for about $600 each - They cut open the battery case, replace all 92 cells using the original BMS and epoxy the case back together. Stock batteries are 5.2 ah and rebuilts are available up to 6.4 ah, depending on who manufactured the new cells. Samsung cells seem to be the preferred brand

Don

 

[Phximiev]

What about us?

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/boeing-orders-space-qualified-li-ion-cells-from-gs-yuasa-lithium-power/

 

[kiev]

Those LSE 190 cells that Boeing is ordering are quite hefty, not sure they would fit in our pack, but we could sure do some burnouts:

dimensions: 165 x 50 x 263 mm width x thickness x height
weight: 4.59 kg ( 10 lbs)
volume: 2.03 liters
max continuous discharge: 190 Amps
max peak discharge (5 seconds): 570 Amps

Other interesting features:
• Hermetically sealed
• Anodized aluminum case and cover
• Wound prismatic construction

 

[Phximiev]

Yes, indeedy a burn-out to remember....

But all the same, GSY is in the battery business, obviously at the top of their game so to speak, and we need an upgrade.

Ok, I'll quit grumbling....

 

[svingen]

Any news? Have about 78% battery and would like to get a30kwh

 

[KiwiEV]

My battery's fine, but I got wondering whether a swap-out with new cells would be cheaper than an entire battery replacement in the future. So, out of sheer curiosity, I emailed Lithium Energy Japan last week for a price on buying 100 brand new LEV50 cells. I expected to hit a brick wall but you never know until you try.

Their initial response was why I wanted them. I explained to replace cells in an electric car (plus have spares). They then emailed back:

We are providing the spare batteries to Mitsubishi Motors Europe to distribute to the end customer in Europe.
I may have to ask you to contact to your vehicle's car dealer for replacing your battery. If they have an enough stock, they will sell you the new batteries.
If not, we will receive the order from Mitsubishi Motors Europe for the spare batteries.

So, I emailed Mitsubishi Slovakia, asking for a price and a part number for the LEV50 cell. They responded the next day that the part number is MZ690402 and it costs €143,81 per cell. But then searching around the net, it looks like that they actually quoted me a lead-acid battery. I emailed them back to clarify if this is indeed true, but I haven't heard back yet.

In the meantime, I asked Peugeot Slovakia the same question. They responded back that they cannot sell individual cells; they can't even order them themselves. They said the only option was to replace the whole pack at a cost of €18,510. Hehehe, no thanks. :lol:

So, the answers appear to be that it's just not possible to buy individual cells from Mitsubishi/Peugeot/Citroen, even though the manufacturer gave me the impression it is possible. Of course, someone in that chain might not have the correct info.

The other alternative is waiting for a third-party battery manufacturer to make similar cells which drop straight in, replacing the old cells, but after searching around the net it seems no company is making those (yet).

When my battery pack does eventually wind down, I'd much prefer to replace it with a new one than throw away the entire car and upgrade. This is both for ecological and sentimental reasons. I just don't want to pay three times more than the car is worth to do it! Oh well, the joy of being pioneers, huh?

 

[PV1]

That part number appears to be for the 12 volt battery under the front hood.

I wonder if someone like EVWest or Youtube's jehugarcia would be interested in assembling some LEV50 replacements? The dimensions of the cells are readily available, and I've already calculated that it's physically possible to fit about 80 Ah worth of 18650 cells in the same space as each LEV50 cell, boosting range to about 100 miles.

An example of jehugarcia's work:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvy3g_NIr8s

 

[Aerowhatt]

I would think that perhaps the best place to look for replacement battery would be to Tesla's Powerwall2. They are using the new 2170 cells that they are making in Nevada. At $5,500.00 for 14 kWh, I haven't found anything less expensive by far. I have not been able to find out how they are configured though. What is the DC voltage of the package??

If one is paying for labor to custom build a pack (or cells) and using quality 18650's to do it. It will most likely cost more than Mitsu replacement cost. and the Mitsu pack would presumably have a warranty. I think "future" is the key word here.

Aerowhatt

 

[blackheart]

Any hope that this would be a real solution in the not so near future?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/tech/super-safe-glass-battery-charges-in-minutes-not-hours/

I'm hoping for one step closer to dilithium crystals for my imiev ;-)

 

[PV1]

I wonder what the weight difference is compared to lithium ion.

While energy density increases are always helpful, does anyone else find the charge time claims almost pointless? With Gen2 EV battery packs in the 50-60 kWh range, <1 hour recharge time isn't going to make much difference when the charger can't push enough current to take advantage of the cell's rapid recharge ability. A 50 kW quick charger would still take over an hour to charge up a Bolt, even at full output. A Supercharger, without tapering, would take nearly an hour to recharge a Model S P100D. The issue, more with larger packs than smaller, is the ability to get power to the battery, not the battery taking it in. Our i-MiEVs, on the other hand, suffer cell limits rather early on in a quick charge, but a full charge on a DCQC can still be accomplished in about an hour. But the trend in EVs is larger packs, not smaller.

What's the story is regarding his last name (Goodenough)?

 

[Aerowhatt]

I wonder what the weight difference is compared to lithium ion.

While energy density increases are always helpful, does anyone else find the charge time claims almost pointless? With Gen2 EV battery packs in the 50-60 kWh range, <1 hour recharge time isn't going to make much difference when the charger can't push enough current to take advantage of the cell's rapid recharge ability. A 50 kW quick charger would still take over an hour to charge up a Bolt, even at full output. A Supercharger, without tapering, would take nearly an hour to recharge a Model S P100D. The issue, more with larger packs than smaller, is the ability to get power to the battery, not the battery taking it in. Our i-MiEVs, on the other hand, suffer cell limits rather early on in a quick charge, but a full charge on a DCQC can still be accomplished in about an hour. But the trend in EVs is larger packs, not smaller.

Agreed charge time claims are pretty pointless.

However large packs I think are a good idea. Imagine a +250 mile range pack that the BMS balanced at from 65 to 70% SOC instead of only near 100%. Then the RR shows ~100 miles and goes turtle at 20% to 25% SOC. Call this "default mode". Then "Trip Mode" (selectable when starting charging and auto reverting to "default mode" at the next charge) would use a discharge profile and limits and top end balancing just like our EV's do today. So you have a highway trip capable EV (with "default mode") that normally has local commuter range. Which on a day to day basis balances the cells and uses the battery in it's highest longevity range of SOC. Likely a 20 year old car with the original battery and 180 miles of trip range remaining would result. Sort of like a Volt without the gas. Plus with the really deep "turtle range" one should never require a tow truck. Even if you really screwed up your planning.

Aerowhatt

 

[jeffcarroll78s2]

If one only owns one vehicle, a large pack is ideal. Personally, My imiev takes me to the office daily, is taken with us on camping trips, and very often is used to haul 8' long construction materials. Many pick-up trucks can't do that! Tesla has called me several times, and my response has always been the same:
" When you make a (4) door car that weighs 2500lbs or less (ideal weight for towing long distance), is as efficient as the i, recharges on any electric service or receptacle in the US, costs $16K and cost nothing more than the price of tires to maintain, give me call!
I wouldn't change anything, about the battery size or get into paralling small cells. Series strings, of 50A cells, are ideal for many reasons. The KISS principle applies. Tesla owners will be in for a surprise when their vehicles are out of warranty, and things start going wrong. I have the equipment and ability to repair or replace the pack in the i...Very few Tesla owners will be capable of this. "Man's got to know his Limitations"!

Jeff in Cincy

 

[jray3]

http://insideevs.com/gs-yuasa-promises-range-doubling-ev-battery-by-2020/

Getting a 120 mile replacement battery (with a Mitsu warranty :roll: ) around 2020-2022 would do very nicely to stretch out MR BEAN's car-eer. At that point he'll be past 120,000 miles, so capacity degradation should be noticeable. Plus, my eldest gets her license to drive in 2022, and I'm not sure which is better, a 50 mile leash plus Daddy's Tow Service, or a battery that she can thrash all the way to Seattle and back... I'm leaning towards the leash. 16 year olds have no business going into the big city without a chaperone! One thing's for sure, she's in love with MR BEAN and I doubt there will be whining for something 'better' when the time comes..

 

[Phximiev]

The question is whether it would fit the iMiev.

 

[jray3]

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...te-recharge-for-new-electric-car-battery-cell

Stories on this next-gen SCiB from Toshiba refer to its testing in a 'compact EV' which I assume would be a MiEV variant (personally, I'd toss a pack in a Minicab MiEV cargo bay for testing).

I keep my eyes peeled for battery upgrade and replacement options. This morning's chilly weather with defrost on the Max setting brought a RR of 35 miles, which is the lowest I've EVer seen. The first capacity bar is also disappearing sooner than I'm accustomed too in heater-free driving. Time to dredge up an Android device for a check via Canion.

 

[Don]

A newer technology battery with a higher density which weighs the same as our current pack but has a range of 80 to 100 miles instead of the current 60 to 80 miles would be welcome . . . . but the odds of anybody making such a thing as a drop in replacement for our LEV50 packs is . . . . pretty slim, I would guess

It's a nimble, light, near perfect urban city car which will never be something I'd care to drive cross country, so long range, quick charge rates and all that is very, very secondary. I wouldn't want it to weigh anymore than it currently does - That would be important, at least to me

Don

 

[rnlcarlov]

If they make a car not wider than the imiev, then it's fine by me that they don't provide a battery upgrade. But so far I'm not seeing any maker interested in making a car as slim as the imiev, so I'm really hoping for an upgrade option, unlikely as it may be.