Environmental Question

[Kuuuurija]

I carefuly registered every charging in first 13 months and all data is there. Sure, I drive my C-Zero like EV should be driven: slow and featherlight. I plan to drive it for many years, so I have to do everything possible to preserve battery health. Our electricity price is 8,7 €C/kWh. 5€/charge at CHEdeMO station in Estonia? NoGo! Please, take a look at official pricelist of CHAdeMO charging in Estonia here. So, if you take Volume Package, you'll pay 0,2€/kWh. For Nissan Leaf it costs 3,5€ for 0-80% fast charging the most. If you charge at home, the price is only half of that.Here I see 1 kWh costs 0,11€ in Estonia. If you charge empty Leaf battery (24 kWh) to 100% SOC, you pay only 2,7€ at home. My car has 16kWh battery. For full charging (17,5 kWh; including losses - wall to wheel) I pay 1,52€ and I make easily 150km before first recharging. That's it, if you believe or not..

Our electricity price is near to 20€C/kWh (because of renewables tax, thank God we have only small share of renewables).
And 5 €/charge at CHEdeMO station in Estonia is real - see the Flex packet on the site you linked here. If you do not pay 10 to 30€ per month additionally, then 5€ is the exact price for one charging. Maybe if you take such ride every day, it will be cheaper to pay 30€/month for the Volume package to get lower rate (1.2 €/charging), but, hey, who can spend 12 hours per trip each day if by regular car it takes only 4 hours!
And please note, that the rate is per charging, not per kWh, so you can not calculate per kWh. If you choose the Volume package, you have to pay 30 € per month even if you do not use CHEdeMO stations at all!

Well, I don't suggest you to use EV for 4 months yearly. I mentioned your long summer days regarding useability of solar power in Estonia. Like I mentioned: you have excellent conditions to use wind power, which is available 12 months/year..

Unfortunately wind is not there when there are frosty winter nights and power consumtion is at the top. Usually wind stops here in the evenings and starts blowing again in the morning. So it can not be reliable source for offpeak charging...

Some of your cons against driving EV are really ridiculous, some are understandable. EV is not equaly usable for everybody and for every geographic area. For me, EV is 100% winn-investment, for somebody living in for example Estonia, who is not ready to adjust driving habits, EV is not acceptable at all.

Congratulations to you!
But if you compare EV vs ICE, be fair and take into account also driving habits. If you drive slowly and with frozen windows, then you create lot of dangerous situations, when others have to pass you (like in the pointed video) etc. If you promote your achievments, do not forget to mention that also!

 

[Kuuuurija]

What are you pointing at with this video? That EV is not ideal for long trips in winter conditions? Guess what! I admit that and every I-miev driver knows that. We certainly didn't buy EV for driving 300 km at -20C, although it's obviously possible. My EV covers almost every need for transportation of my family. If we make very long trips, more than 300km - I switch cars with somebody, who is excited to drive EV for few days or weeks.

I am pointing at the fact that even Leaf needs 8 charging stops per 370 km to drive safely and comfortably. Promotional data about the driving range and efficiency is BS! This affects environmental aspect also. BTW the temperature was -11C to -15C only, not -20C.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

A typical plug-to-wheels efficiency is about 85%. But with renewable energy, the loss really doesn't matter, as long as you can generate enough electricity for your needs.

 

[fjpod]

yawn

 

[Kuuuurija]

A typical plug-to-wheels efficiency is about 85%. But with renewable energy, the loss really doesn't matter, as long as you can generate enough electricity for your needs.

I think there is no difference with the ICE car case. As long as you can pump enough gasoline for your needs, you do not have to worry about the fuel economy.

 

[HParkEV]

I think there is no difference with the ICE car case. As long as you can pump enough gasoline for your needs, you do not have to worry about the fuel economy.

That definitely holds true if there is no difference between 'renewable' and 'non-renewable'. Unfortunately, the difference is diametric.

 

[Kuuuurija]

I think there is no difference with the ICE car case. As long as you can pump enough gasoline for your needs, you do not have to worry about the fuel economy.

That definitely holds true if there is no difference between 'renewable' and 'non-renewable'. Unfortunately, the difference is diametric.

The difference is in your head only! All those "renewable" systems use non-renewable resources.

 

[Don]

A typical plug-to-wheels efficiency is about 85%. But with renewable energy, the loss really doesn't matter, as long as you can generate enough electricity for your needs.

I think there is no difference with the ICE car case. As long as you can pump enough gasoline for your needs, you do not have to worry about the fuel economy.

I *knew* there was something I needed to do today - Get the pump on that gasoline well in my backyard working so I can drive my ICE's for FREE! :lol:

Seriously, though - We've had our iMiEV for 18 months now and I don't think I've spent $100 for gasoline in all that time. Where we used to spend $50 to $60 every month (currently, gasoline here is $3 US per US gallon) we're now spending about $15 per month for electricity. No ChaDeMo charges here . . . . nor any charges for any public charging at all, as we don't have ANY public recharging stations here. All charging happens in our garage

No matter how we measure it, our transportation expenses are now less than 1/3rd of what they were before we bought the EV

Don

 

[Zelenec]

Our electricity price is near to 20€C/kWh (because of renewables tax

I can't imagine you have to pay almost 100% of renewables tax on electricity bill.

thank God we have only small share of renewables).

That's why you have to pay such abnormal ren. tax

And 5 €/charge at CHEdeMO station in Estonia is real - see the Flex packet on the site you linked here. If you do not pay 10 to 30€ per month additionally, then 5€ is the exact price for one charging. Maybe if you take such ride every day, it will be cheaper to pay 30€/month for the Volume package to get lower rate (1.2 €/charging), but, hey, who can spend 12 hours per trip each day if by regular car it takes only 4 hours!

You really don't understand the meaning of city car. Every vehicle has it's purpose. Once again: I didn't and wouldn't buy an EV to make 300km daily. I dont usualy need to charge but nights at home. That is what EV is made for. But wait for few years. You might be surprised about progress of EV technology. Like you never dreamed of smart phones back in early 90's carrying awkward heavy mobiles, you can't imagine the range and charging times of future EVs.

And please note, that the rate is per charging, not per kWh, so you can not calculate per kWh.

I don't understand how you can not calculate. If I charge 16 kWh and I pay 5€, it comes out 0,31€/kWh. But nobody is forcing you to charge at public stations unless you can't charge at home.

If you choose the Volume package, you have to pay 30 € per month even if you do not use CHEdeMO stations at all!

Hmm, why would anybody buy Volume package, if he doesn't need it?

Unfortunately wind is not there when there are frosty winter nights and power consumtion is at the top. Usually wind stops here in the evenings and starts blowing again in the morning. So it can not be reliable source for offpeak charging...

Do you really have power usage peaks at night in Estonia? That's unicum in EU.

If you drive slowly and with frozen windows, then you create lot of dangerous situations, when others have to pass you (like in the pointed video) etc. If you promote your achievments, do not forget to mention that also!

Yes I drive slowly on local streets. It's kind of normal. No frozen windows last winter. We don't have so harsh winters in Mediterranean. So no danger to others at all.

 

[Kuuuurija]

I *knew* there was something I needed to do today - Get the pump on that gasoline well in my backyard working so I can drive my ICE's for FREE! :lol:

Are you saying, that renewable is for free?
Do you agree with NeilBlanchard that if something is labelled as renewable, then it does not matter how efficient or inefficient is use of that resource? Let's cover all fields with solar panels and replace all forests with wind generators, then we do not need to worry any more, about how much energy we are wasting? From where come all the metals and other resources for this and what we gonna eat or drink after that, this is not a concern - we are proud: we use RENEWABLE!

No matter how we measure it, our transportation expenses are now less than 1/3rd of what they were before we bought the EV

Congratulations to you! I do not know what was your previous car and how thirsty it was. I do not know what are the gasoline and electric power prices for you. And I do not know if roads in your country are financed from gasoline tax or from some other tax. Here in Estonia EV owners do not contribute to roads and their only savings come at the expense of the other.
Some are proud to live at the expense of the other, but I was shamed if I'd live this way!

 

[Kuuuurija]

I can't imagine you have to pay almost 100% of renewables tax on electricity bill.

In my bill ca 33% is price for power, ca 40% is grid service and the rest is taxes.

That's why you have to pay such abnormal ren. tax

Renewable tax has very high rate (per kWh) if to compare with the oil shale energy. There was time, when ren. tax had more than 10 times higher rate. Today the difference is not so high anymore, but renewable is still several times higher. The reason is that we have to pay abnormally high subsidies to producers of renewable labelled energy.

You really don't understand the meaning of city car. Every vehicle has it's purpose. Once again: I didn't and wouldn't buy an EV to make 300km daily. I dont usualy need to charge but nights at home. That is what EV is made for. But wait for few years. You might be surprised about progress of EV technology. Like you never dreamed of smart phones back in early 90's carrying awkward heavy mobiles, you can't imagine the range and charging times of future EVs.

I understand the concept very well, do not worry. I know, that most of EV owners have several cars, including ICE cars for longer runs. But I can not understand how keeping two cars instead of one is more environmentally friendly, than only one and universal.

I don't understand how you can not calculate. If I charge 16 kWh and I pay 5€, it comes out 0,31€/kWh. But nobody is forcing you to charge at public stations unless you can't charge at home.

Of course you can calculate, if you measure each amount of energy charged. But in this video those kilowatt hours were not published. Therefore calculating cost per kWh was bluff.

Hmm, why would anybody buy Volume package, if he doesn't need it?

Maybe this package is for EV taxis? Regular EV owner should not usually need to use public fast chargers. This journalist took one time test trip to Tartu, for such occasional charging is Flexible package with the rate 5€ per charging, what I was talking about.

Do you really have power usage peaks at night in Estonia? That's unicum in EU.

Our night time peaks happen to be on frosty winter nights when households and offices use electric heating for additional warmth. If at the same time there were 300 000 EV-s charging, then the consumption exceeds every present peak.

Yes I drive slowly on local streets. It's kind of normal. No frozen windows last winter. We don't have so harsh winters in Mediterranean. So no danger to others at all.

Lucky you!

 

[carnut1100]

If your second car is an older car then yes it is environmentally responsible.
In my case I have a 1978 Volvo 244.
The energy used to make it has long since been accounted for and by keeping it on the road I am saving the energy of recycling it.
By using an older car I am saving the energy of making a new car.
By using this older car only for trips my EV cannot make I am in effect taking an older ICE car off the road because when it is in my yard somebody else is not burning petrol in it.
Since buying the iMiev I have only used it a couple of times and the only trips it makes are when the iMiev cannot cope ;
when I need five seats (very unusual)
When I need to tow a trailer (iMiev has no hitch and I think it would fit almost inside my trailer...)
When I need to make a long trip (less than half a dozen times a year)
If I ever have electricity blackout for several days and cannot charge (has happened once in the five years I have lived here)

So my old Volvo has done less than one hundred km since I bought the iMiEV but the EV has done almost 1,500.

My trip to work is 12km each way so round trip of say 25km to allow for side trip to visit supermarket or library etc
A trip to the supermarket is 10km each way so 20km round trip.
A trip to the nearest city centre is 30km each way for 60km round trip.
I can go to work, into the city to play sports, and return home on one charge.
Even with the big hills where I live I can go 100km on a charge.
On a frosty day I can crank the heater on the way to work and back without running low.

For me the iMiev can do more than 90% of all my driving easily. My second car is over 30 years old so I can get half Price registration that limits me to 52 driving days per year, which I will never use all of.
If I still lived in my last house I could not have an EV, 75km each way of highway driving would mean without a charge at work I would not get home so they are not for everybody, but for me it is a cheap, quiet and convenient way to travel and with solar panels on my roof and hydro from the grid it is also environmentally sound.
Also I just plain enjoy the electric driving experience, smoothness, quiet, flat torque curve....I'd still drive an EV if it was worse than ICE for the environment!

EVs will NOT work for everybody.
Just for 90% of us....

 

[PV1]

In cold climate up to 50% of electricity from batteries goes for heating of the EV. Only fool compares ICE cars fuel to traction with efficiency of EV-s electical engine.

I drove to work today in sub-freezing temperatures with the heater going full tilt at 47 mph. The heater only increased usage by 25%. Normally, I use 2,000 watts to drive 11 miles, and regenerate 5%. Today, I used almost 3,000 watts, and regenerated 7%.

Just for fun, I jumped on the highway on the way home. If you want to make a real dent in efficiency, fight to lower the speed limits.

My figures of energy usage in the EV are not hypermiling, these are real-world driving figures.

 

[Don]

I know, that most of EV owners have several cars, including ICE cars for longer runs. But I can not understand how keeping two cars instead of one is more environmentally friendly, than only one and universal.

LOTS of people have several cars . . . . not just EV owners

Before we bought the EV, we had 3 ICE cars, one truck and 3 motorcycles. When I bought the EV, I sold the ICE that we used the most (it had 125,000 miles on it) and the EV replaced that car.

Since we bought the EV, the other 2 ICE cars are driven much less than before, so for us the EV is proving very environmentally friendly, since it has reduced our gasoline consumption by at least 80% if not more

There are forum members here who have their iMiEV as their only car - It's not that hard to do if you have a friend or neighbor who will swap cars with you for those rare times you need to make a longer trip

Don

 

[NeilBlanchard]

When you wake up from your fantasy, and rejoin reality, we'll continue the conversation. Renewable energy will last as long as the sun does - about another 5 billion years.

Good luck with that oil well.

 

[Kuuuurija]

When you wake up from your fantasy, and rejoin reality, we'll continue the conversation. Renewable energy will last as long as the sun does - about another 5 billion years.

Good luck with that oil well.

Only limited number of watts of solar power per area are available and only limited number of hectares of the Earth surface are available. So do not waste the resource!

 

[PV1]

Just covering the roads in the US with solar would be enough to power our country's electrical needs 3 times over. I'm sure many others are in the same boat.

Also, putting solar on every suitable roof, battery backups scattered throughout, with everything attached to a DC electrical grid, you could very well run an entire town, no problem.

Even if solar is not so good in your country, it's still worth something, especially combined with wind and hydro. You say that the wind blows mostly during the day. Combined with solar, use the EVs to soak up excess and feed it when supply is tight.

Shale oil to produce electricity with electric heat in the homes? Sounds like your country needs renewable energy more than others. The more commonplace renewables are, the less incentives they'll receive. If you're annoyed by paying a renewables tax, then put some up yourself and don't accept the incentives.

I would have purchased solar and the i-MiEV without any incentives. They only expedited the process.

 

[Don]

I think, that cars price describes quite well, how much energy and resources are used for building a car. EV-s have almost twice the price of ICE cars of the same size. Therefore I think they are consuming more energy and resources.

It's hard to have an intelligent argument with you because your logic is so flawed

Yes, you need 'energy and resources' to build most anything, and if you build it with new technology much of your cost involves engineering and tooling expenses, because you're still developing the technology and learning how to effectively build it

Consider that a flat panel television which sold for $2,000 only a few years ago now sells for $200 and it's a much better TV to boot. Once the engineering, development and production costs are amortized over the first 10 or 15 million objects, the true cost of what 'energy and resources' it actually takes to build the item becomes more obvious. Prior to that, much of what you pay is the company charging you extra to recoup their development costs

As you can plainly see, it's obviously impossible to make any comparison between EV's and ICE's using price because ICE technology has been pretty well perfected over the past 50 or 100 years (and about 500 billion ICE powered cars) . . . . we know how to make those kinds of cars about as cheaply as the newest flat panel televisions, while EV's are still carrying much of their engineering and development cost 'baggage' and they will continue to be 'artificially expensive' until they have sold a few million units of each design

Don

 

[NeilBlanchard]

The energy in the sunlight that hits the earth IN ONE HOUR is enough to meet the needs OF ALL THE PEOPLE ON EARTH FOR ONE YEAR.

So, given that we cannot (and indeed do not want to) get all the energy that hits the earth, and given typical efficiencies of solar PV and heat systems - we can get all the energy that we need for ONE YEAR - IN A SINGLE MONTH!

We can get way more energy than we need from just solar energy. And also we can get much more energy than we need from wind turbines on land, and even more from water based wind turbines. South Dakota alone could power about 1/3rd of the entire lower 48 states in the US.

We can also get lots of energy from wave systems, and tidal systems, and geothermal, and biomass, and small scale hydro power, too. In total, we could get 16-30X as much energy as we need for all people on the entire earth.

 

[Kuuuurija]

The energy in the sunlight that hits the earth IN ONE HOUR is enough to meet the needs OF ALL THE PEOPLE ON EARTH FOR ONE YEAR.

So, given that we cannot (and indeed do not want to) get all the energy that hits the earth, and given typical efficiencies of solar PV and heat systems - we can get all the energy that we need for ONE YEAR - IN A SINGLE MONTH!

We can get way more energy than we need from just solar energy. And also we can get much more energy than we need from wind turbines on land, and even more from water based wind turbines. South Dakota alone could power about 1/3rd of the entire lower 48 states in the US.

We can also get lots of energy from wave systems, and tidal systems, and geothermal, and biomass, and small scale hydro power, too. In total, we could get 16-30X as much energy as we need for all people on the entire earth.

Please, put your money where your mouth is! Cover your land with solar panels and provide everyone with endless energy!
Otherwise this is just another BS story, that has nothing to do with reality!