Duosida EVSE

[PV1]

Yes, I believe those higher rates in the UK require 3-phase. However, here in the States, if 3-phase is available, it's typically through a DCQC. Except for Tesla vehicles, no production EV in the US has anything bigger than a 7.2 kW on-board.

I think for figuring out how the car charges so fast on level 1, CaniOn and an OBDLink LX bluetooth would be very helpful. Besides all of the battery stats, it can also tell what the incoming AC voltage and amperage is at the J1772 port.

 

[Aerowhatt]

I have a juice box 40. The old one which has adjustable 120vac amperage (8 to 16). I opened it up and turned it up from 12 amps to the max (which is supposed to be 16amps). Using canion and a kilowatt meter to corroborate it's results. Starting at 50% SOC so there wouldn't be any interference from an almost full battery. The car pulled 14 amps which implies that is it's limit (onboard charger) on 120VAC. It is a pretty fast charge for 120V registering 9 miles per hour on canion. Comparing to 19 or 20 miles per hour on a good L2 with minimal voltage drop. could it be different on earlier models than the 2014?

Aerowhatt

 

[kiev]

Sounds like a good test you made--thanks for sharing the results.

 

[JoeS]

Aerowhatt, thank you for performing the test. Sounds as though Mitsubishi limited the amperage to protect against just the scenario we've been discussing, and this is just about the 240vac current limit as well.

 

[Aerowhatt]

People keep bringing up these issues, that lead to questions, that I hadn't thought of (like what is the max charge rate on 120V?). Once the question is in my head, curiosity nags me until I get the answer. Sometimes I wish I could get a curiosityectomy :?

Aerowhatt

 

[Don]

Once the question is in my head, curiosity nags me until I get the answer. Sometimes I wish I could get a curiosityectomy :?

You're not the only one suffering! Sometimes I lay in bed when I should be going to sleep thinking about something or other that's been bothering me until I eventually 'solve' it. Miss out on some sleep, but sleep really well once it's resolved and out of my mind

Don

 

[GdB]

In all the posts I have not seen it clearly stated how many Amps the Duosida EVSE uses with the i-MiEV.

Connected to 120V, through my EMW Wattbox with EKM OmniMeter II, my Duosida EVSE charging my i-MiEV indicated either 14.0 or 14.2 Amps.

So it's ok to plug into 5-20R outlets with 12g wiring.

 

[GdB]

As a side note, I measured the blade thickness of Leviton 5-15P and 5-20P add-on plug adapters, and they are the same, so the 5-20P just has a rotated blade, no other difference.

The receptacle wiring being 14g or thinner wiring is the only reason for 20% derating. A 5-15P could pull 14 Amps all day with 12g wiring, the 20% derate limit is 16 Amps.

 

[GdB]

Up until now, on 120vac all the EVSEs we've been dealing with have themselves only allowed a maximum current draw of 12A, which, at 80%, is the maximum allowable steady-state current draw from a conventional 120vac 15A (NEMA 5-15) circuit.

For this reason, we have not been concerned with higher currents on 120vac.

This Duosida EVSE evidently is pre-set to allow 16A (irrespective of whether it's 120vac or 240vac) and requires a 20A source circuit.

Does anyone know what is the maximum current draw by the i-MiEV on 120vac if the input current is unrestricted by the EVSE ?

Note: we do know that the maximum current draw by the i-MiEV charger on 240vac is around 13A.

Connected to 120V, through my EMW Wattbox with EKM OmniMeter II, my Duosida EVSE charging my i-MiEV indicated either 14.0 or 14.2 Amps.

I measured the blade thickness of Leviton 5-15P and 5-20P add-on plug adapters, and they are the same, so the 5-20P just has a rotated blade, no other difference.

The receptacle wiring being 14g or thinner wiring is the only reason for 20% derating. A 5-15P could pull 14 Amps all day with 12g wiring, the 20% derate limit is 16 Amps.

 

[JoeS]

Does anyone know what is the maximum current draw by the i-MiEV on 120vac if the input current is unrestricted by the EVSE?

Connected to 120V, through my EMW Wattbox with EKM OmniMeter II, my Duosida EVSE charging my i-MiEV indicated either 14.0 or 14.2 Amps.

Thank you for that valuable answer. Going from 15A-rated connectors to 20A entails more than just wire gauge size or terminal thickness, but I don't know what all the variables are for certification at 20A. Although I would be less uncomfortable using name-brand connectors such as Leviton in this application of 14A using 5-15P and 5-15R (assuming wire gauge is 12AWG which I don't believe it is on the Mitsu EVSE (Edit: I should have said Duosida), the electrical code being what it is precludes such usage and I'd hate to have something untoward happen. As a minimum I would use a spot thermometer to check the connector and wire temperatures once it's running.

As a stark visual reminder, this is just one of many connectors I've cooked over the years in battery charging applications, and the wire going to this connector I believe was either 10AWG or 12AWG. I'd have to look through my files but I can probably find some more uglies.
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3758#p32857

...The receptacle wiring being 14g or thinner wiring is the only reason for 20% derating. A 5-15P could pull 14 Amps all day with 12g wiring, the 20% derate limit is 16 Amps.

I didn't know that. Source?

 

[justoneman]

So I was using my Duosida at home In my garage and also outside at my work. We had some excessive rain here in the Chicago area and my water proof (resistant) unit got under water apparently. When I got home the unit was faulting. I opened the ends with the o ring seals and shook a few drops of water out. I blew some air through the unit sealed it up and it worked. It worked that evening and the next day at work but after that point in time it has failed. I took it apart and dried it out completely but no dice. So I ordered a new unit online. The advertisement did not indicate the plug type but I figured I would make anything work. I received it today and it came with a standard 15amp plug!

 

[GdB]

...The receptacle wiring being 14g or thinner wiring is the only reason for 20% derating. A 5-15P could pull 14 Amps all day with 12g wiring, the 20% derate limit is 16 Amps.

I didn't know that. Source?

No source just common sense. But I was thinking about this and found this interesting source relating to the 20% derate...

https://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/building/pdf/bundle_evaluation_report.pdf
They tested worst case wire bundles at high ambient temperatures.
The tests results presented are for 12g, but they say very similar results for 14g.

I'm glad I used 4g or 6g, and undersized the breaker just to minimize losses...

 

[GdB]

14-2 Solid NM-B W/G Romex Wire is rated to 90°C, but should be limited to 60°C.


2 of these in parallel with an angle plug placed in a small project box would allow receptacle thermal protection, assuming the plugs and receptacles are also good to 75°C.:

http://www.allelectronics.com/item/thsw-167/thermal-protector/1.html
KLIXON 9700K251-48. Normally-closed thermal protector designed for motors, fluorescent ballasts and temperature sensing controls. Opens 75°C (167°F). Closes 50°C (122°F). Rated 13A / 250Vac. 3" lead length.

 

[justoneman]

 

[justoneman]

15 amp plug.

 

[justoneman]

This replacement Duosida EVSE was shorter than my first one and so it did not reach my garage outlet. So I first used it with an extension cord I already had. This was a cord with 16 AWG wire. It got hot so I went to buy a 12 AWG cord. I decided to get a 14 AWG cord to see if that got hot. Upon using this new extension cord I found it did not get hot. It was only very slightly warm almost imperceptible.

 

[GdB]

This replacement Duosida EVSE was shorter than my first one and so it did not reach my garage outlet. So I first used it with an extension cord I already had. This was a cord with 16 AWG wire. It got hot so I went to buy a 12 AWG cord. I decided to get a 14 AWG cord to see if that got hot. Upon using this new extension cord I found it did not get hot. It was only very slightly warm almost imperceptible.

Wow that 16g wire was just a hot sunny day away from melting! But the fact that 14g did not get hot suggests a lot of conservatism in the 20% derate.

A lot of Ampacity tables don't show 16g.

Not sure if this one applies to home wiring, no mention of NM-B.
http://www.armstrongssupply.com/wire_chart.htm

This one is interesting in that it shows tables with and without derate:
https://xtronics.com/wiki/Wire-Gauge_Ampacity.html


econd version of the above table with 60°C trade derating - (affects ohms/kft and ohms/km.)
Max ambient 60°C

AWG *1 *2
16 22 13
14 32 17
12 41 23

*1 CU Max
free-air
Amps

*2 CU Max
enclosed
Amps

It seems like the 20% derate has been applied twice.

 

[justoneman]

This replacement Duosida EVSE was shorter than my first one and so it did not reach my garage outlet. So I first used it with an extension cord I already had. This was a cord with 16 AWG wire. It got hot so I went to buy a 12 AWG cord. I decided to get a 14 AWG cord to see if that got hot. Upon using this new extension cord I found it did not get hot. It was only very slightly warm almost imperceptible.

Wow that 16g wire was just a hot sunny day away from melting! But the fact that 14g did not get hot suggests a lot of conservatism in the 20% derate.

A lot of Ampacity tables don't show 16g.

Not sure if this one applies to home wiring, no mention of NM-B.
http://www.armstrongssupply.com/wire_chart.htm

This one is interesting in that it shows tables with and without derate:
https://xtronics.com/wiki/Wire-Gauge_Ampacity.html


econd version of the above table with 60°C trade derating - (affects ohms/kft and ohms/km.)
Max ambient 60°C

AWG *1 *2
16 22 13
14 32 17
12 41 23

*1 CU Max
free-air
Amps

*2 CU Max
enclosed
Amps

It seems like the 20% derate has been applied twice.

I knew the 16 AWG extension cord was inappropriate, but I wanted to se if it got hot. I only had it hooked up for about 10 mins and I monitored it the whole time.

 

[justoneman]

So what about this Duosida with the 15 amp plug?

 

[JoeS]

...So what about this Duosida with the 15 amp plug?

We now know that plugging this thing into the i-MiEV will result in 14.0A-14.2A current draw, which exceeds the 12A max allowable for this type of an installation.

The EVSE wire leading to the 5-15 connector looks a little thin to me to have #10AWG or #12AWG wires inside it.

On a forum such as this, none of us can recommend doing something that's outside of code requirements; nevertheless, if you're going to be using the Duosida EVSE with 5-15, I'd be inclined to have it sit on a brick with the wires going to the wall outlet suspended in mid-air for maximum ventilation, and have nothing flammable immediately around the wire or connector if it should start cooking. I'd periodically check the connector/outlet to make sure it's not hot. Ambient air temperature also makes a significant difference.

Let us know how you fare, and perhaps measure and tell us what some of the temperatures are.