Battery Failure?

[PV1]

Yeah, definitely sounds like a defective cell(s). I would bring this thread up to them and suggest to at least check the cell voltages through a discharge cycle (leave the car on with either heat or AC running and monitor the pack).

You may also want to invest in an OBDLink MX bluetooth dongle and the Android app Canion if you manage to get the car back from the dealer.

With these battery failures, it is important to remember that it is not the entire pack failing at once, but rather 1 or 2 cells here and there that go bad and reduce the capacity of the entire pack. So, for the three or four reported failures out of, say, 1,200 i-MiEVs, that is fewer than 15 cells out of over 105,000 cells that are defective, or less than %0.0002 of produced cells. Realistically, I would expect the number of bad cells to be higher than that, but this is my estimate based on what I see on this forum.

I would hope Mitsubishi takes these failed battery packs and reuses them for their PV+EV setups and possibly a refurbished battery pack market.

 

[JoeS]

dniemeyer99, yes it does sound as though one or more cells have gone walkabout (apologies to our Australian friends), but I would expect Mitsubishi to expeditiously zero-in on this problem, and, based on previous experience, promptly replace your battery pack if they indeed find it defective. So far, Mitsubishi has been very good about this.

Having successfully murdered many of my non-iMiEV EV batteries (both lead-acid and lithiums), I've been attempting to gather background information on any battery use and it's environment that may have had an impact on your pack's life. For example, from a climate standpoint, whereabouts are you located? What was your usual charging regimen? How often did you take the car down to zero bars? How many times to turtle? When you were down close to zero bars did you continue driving normally or did you ease up and keep the red needle in the green zone? How much was the car exposed to high temperatures, especially fully charged? How about low temperature extremes? Anything you think might be pertinent will help - this is simply a data-gathering exercise.

I purchased, not leased, my iMiEV, and am interested in keeping its battery pack alive and kicking for years to come. Anything we learn from others' experiences will help.

 

[Malm]

For example, from a climate standpoint, whereabouts are you located? Portugal, 15º C medium temperature in an year.
What was your usual charging regimen? 30%-100% every two days.
How often did you take the car down to zero bars? One every month.
How many times to turtle? One every month.
When you were down close to zero bars did you continue driving normally or did you ease up and keep the red needle in the green zone? I ease significantly the driving.
How much was the car exposed to high temperatures, especially fully charged? Well, this is Portugal, but I avoid to let it fully charged at the sun.
How about low temperature extremes? Never.

And how many bars does it charge - 16 bars. 3 years, 62.000 km, and 16 bars. Canion gives me above 20% (sometimes it can happen at 25%), all cells in the same voltage (never more then 0,01V diferences)

So I think the problem with our 3 miners, says the canary watching (that keeps beautiful singing with his 88 notes) has nothing to do with how they used the car, but a defect of origin of one or two cells of their packs. Maybe they let them fall into the groud when they where born. That's why I think we should take care to avoid accidents, because our batteries can be susceptible.

I would like to share with you these images showing temperatures by canion, sorry about de portuguese.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mnlldlgdkygz4tj/O%20que%20nos%20revelam%20os%20sensores%20de%20temperatura%20do%20i.docx

And if you want you battery to last, well it's very simple, keep them at low temperatures. If they are allways below 25º C in 10 years they will keep above 70% capacity. Simple as that.

 

[dniemeyer99]

Just to let everyone understand the environment or stresses my battery has been under.

I have had the car since Nov 2012 ( total of 25,000 km) and therefore gone through two winters. I live in northern Canada and temperatures can go down to -35 to -40 degrees C. The car is outside at all times and therefore is charged at these temperatures.

I charge every day to 100% as my commute is a minimum of 70 Km (42 miles) per day. In the winter and especially this winter I have needed to have the heater on full giving me just enough for the round trip. That said, I arranged to be able to charge at work using 240 V which has given me the flexibility to travel further in a day and not worry about going to turtle mode. I have therefore only flat line (zero bars) my charge twice and been 1 km from home. And that was before I got the charger at work and therefore last winter.

I understand that low temperatures does not affect the battery life but I am wondering with temperature so low, that if some kind of crystallization may be happening that might damage the cell. The chemistry of the cell is fine when temperatures return to normal but some mechanical damage may be happening to the cell. I also want to note that the 2014 Imeiv is suppose to have the battery heater as standard. It makes me wonder if Mitsubishi knows something and is try to medicated future issues. But that might just be me and my lack trust in large companies and full disclosure. Regardless, as a company, it is the right thing to do for future models.

As for driving, I rarely go in eco mode and maximum speed would be 90 km/h for maybe 20 km per round trip. That is note to say I have not gone faster but not regularly.

I hope this helps.

Dave

 

[JoeS]

Dave, thank you for your response. Yes, your battery has had a hard life with two winters (his last one, especially). One of the other battery packs with a problem had also been operated in a cold environment (but not as severe as yours). I thought all Canadian models already had the cold weather package which ducts cabin heat through the battery pack(?). Your conditions make me laugh when I hear some of the 'concerns' expressed by would-be buyers around here

It's my understanding Lithium low temperature operation, or even survivability, is a function of the specific battery chemistry used. I think it's fantastic how much development is going on in this area - read about new breakthroughs every week. I'm happy Mitsu actually came out with a product instead of decades of lab evaluations before developing the 'perfect' battery pack.

Hopefully, Mitsubishi will make your iMiEV well again soon. I'm inexperienced in dealing with dealerships - but maybe someone can suggest some tactics? All the best.

 

[Malm]

So, I would like to see now if the problem results of the failure of just one cell, or other thing. If the battery develops problems because -30ºC/-40ºC outside (allways hotter in the pack, for what I see) then many should be worried (not me). When the battery garantie is gone, we could have to buy a new one any moment :shock: . For now, I shouldn't blame the low temperatures.

 

[DonDakin]

Dave ,

What is the status with your car ?


Don.....

 

[dniemeyer99]

Don

You must ask technical support at Mitsubishi. Oh wait, the customer can not talk to technical support, only the dealer can. And all am getting from them is, "they are talking to technical support".

Yes, I am a little ticked. Will wait another week and then start complaining through a consumer protection organization that all dealers must be a part of. Maybe, that will get their attention. However, be sure that Mitsubishi will be getting a very long letter when all this is done. We will see if they make this whole experience right with me.

Dave

 

[MLucas]

Sorry to hear about your battery troubles. I'm confident based on other's experience that you car will be fixed soon. I live in the cold as well and so far I have not had any trouble with the battery range and I have about 48k kilometers, charge fully every day, drive 80 kilometers daily mostly highway miles and charge on L1 during the day in the winter. I think it's just the luck of the draw and not so much as to where you live. The battery warmer only kicks in below -15c, which is quite cold and way below the average we see here in the Niagara/Buffalo area - mostly around -5c - -10c in the coldest parts of the winter although this winter has been worse. I-MiEV owners in Montreal and other parts of Canada get even colder and we haven't seen many failures in those places. From what I've read it's the heat that causes the damage not the cold, a lithium battery will come back to life as the temperature increases. I'm sure you'll be back on the road soon, just thank your insightfulness and wisdom that you didn't buy a Nissan Leaf then you would be in trouble.

 

[Don]

Anything put together in a series string is only as reliable as it's weakest link. If you had a string of 50 Christmas lights on your tree wired in series with each bulb rated to last an average of 1,000 hours, the odds are pretty good that at around 500 hours one of those bulbs would burn out and your tree would go dark . . . . despite the fact that 45 of those bulbs may well last twice as long as expected - The net result though is that the tree is still dark. If only we could predict beforehand which is the weakest link

From the battery pack failures we've read about so far, it seems most have developed a problem with just one or two cells. With 88 of them strung together in series, this means that even if the failure rate of the cells was just 1/100th of 1%, (which I would classify as pretty darned good reliability) then about one of every 10,000 cells will have an early failure - Divided by 88, that mans one out of about every 100 cars could be expected to have a problem during the warranty period. I'm sure Mitsu has calculated some number they could live with before they agreed to *sell* these cars, as opposed to only leasing them as other manufacturers have done

At any rate, I'm sure Mitsu will make good on their warranty - The good news is . . . . when you finally get your car back, it will have a brand new, zero miles battery in it and with 1 in 100 odds, hopefully you won't see a second failure

Don

 

[dniemeyer99]

Thanks guys for your words of encouragements.

The issue I am having is not if the battery (cells) will be fixed. And at this point I am assuming it is the battery because it has taken so long. The issue I am having is the customer support. No information and no schedule as to when the warrantee will be done. Do you think a car company or dealership would behave like this if the car was an internal combustion engine. Remember, it has been six weeks now with no information.

I know this EV thing is all new but if a company is really committed to a technology, I would assume they keep their stakeholders in the loop. And I would assume that their number one stakeholder should be their customer. Mitsubishi is doing very little in marketing this vehicle (a mistake) and therefore is relying on word of mouth. And if you are an dealer, although you are there to sell the companies cars, can you honestly say to potential customers that Mitsubishi can support this new technology as well as their ICE vehicle.

The more I read, the more I am believing that other than Tesla, no car company wants to be in the EV business. I just believe that as EV owner, we should encourage them to see the future and demand they create the same support structure they have with their other vehicles. Stop thinking small and lets change the future for the better.

Dave

 

[JoeS]

dniemeyer99, I'm distressed to see you treated this way. Hmmm, Mitsubishi North America (USA) seems to be distinct from Mitsubishi Canada. The previous two battery issues which were resolved by installing a new battery pack were in the US. I wonder if that makes a difference…? To date, all i-MiEV issues on this Forum have been dealt with quite satisfactorily by Mitsubishi.

In your shoes I'd be inclined to start an email dialogue with your service representative, recapping your experience to date and asking for a commitment with a timeframe. If they don't get back to you within a day, I'd be inclined to escalate to Mitsubishi Canada headquarters. http://www.mitsubishi-motors.ca/en/ Unfortunately, at this point in time it seems to me you need to be a squeaky wheel.

Please do keep us informed of the gory details of your progress.

Customer service/treatment is an integral part of the desirability of any product. Absent Mitsubishi's marketing, we are the ones educating the public and making the recommendations. Hate to see a nice little car like the i-MiEV get short shrift because of individual dealership bias or ineptness.

 

[MLucas]

In your shoes I'd be inclined to start an email dialogue with your service representative, recapping your experience to date and asking for a commitment with a timeframe. If they don't get back to you within a day, I'd be inclined to escalate to Mitsubishi Canada headquarters. http://www.mitsubishi-motors.ca/en/ Unfortunately, at this point in time it seems to me you need to be a squeaky wheel.

I think that is where you need to go now, it's been way too long. This may not be a Mitsubishi problem but more of a dealer problem - like you said, they have no incentive to fix it. Once the warranty work is done you won't be back so what do they care.

 

[dniemeyer99]

To all

Just to update the forum on my battery failure problems. I finally got a call from the dealership telling me that Mitsubishi has come to the conclusion that the battery will be replaced. Forgive me but Dahhhhh. Their very expensive testing tools would have told them that in the first couple of days.

A quote from their warranty manual:

" Today's automobiles are extremely complex and are comprised of enormous number of individual parts. Occasionally, a problem with one of these parts can occur. Should you experience such a problem, we are confident that you will find your Certified I-MiEV Dealer prepared to provide you with high quality service repairs. Every Certified I-MiEV Dealer has Mitsubishi-trained personnel, plus the tools and equipment necessary to provide for your various service needs."

If this is true, than it should not have taken over 7 weeks (minus 2 days) to determine the battery was the problem.

They have ordered a new battery but no ETA as of yet. Maybe two weeks is all I got.

I would like however to thank the moderator and the makers of this web site. As part of the conversation with the dealer, he is telling me that everyone at Mitsubishi Canada knows of this problem. He said it a little more strongly than I would have expected. I had not started any written campaign just yet and was maybe two days away. Which suggests to me that Mitsubishi is checking on this site and you may have helped move this problem forward. If so, a thank you is required.

We will wait two more weeks and see.

Dave

 

[Malm]

That's the end of the story that we where all expecting. In this forum, we are global. I'm sure, if that happens to me, I will have to explain to Mitsubishi Portugal where is the problem. Take some images of canion and show them the defective cell. But for now, and like almost everybody, all charge very much the same. 3 years, 63,500 km and, at least, 4,095 for each cell at 100% SoC.

You can be happy to be i-MiEV. If you where Leaf, they could only replace the defective cell. Not you, they will give you an entire new pack.

It will be interesting to know what was the defective cell. An inner or outer cell? I think the problem was not caused by cold, but if the problem happened on an inner cell, I would be more certain.

 

[JoeS]

Dave, I'm delighted to hear of the positive action taken and hope you will soon get your i-MiEV back with a new battery pack. Do let us know how things turn out.

 

[MLucas]

That's the end of the story that we where all expecting. In this forum, we are global. I'm sure, if that happens to me, I will have to explain to Mitsubishi Portugal where is the problem. Take some images of canion and show them the defective cell. But for now, and like almost everybody, all charge very much the same. 3 years, 63,500 km and, at least, 4,095 for each cell at 100% SoC.

You can be happy to be i-MiEV. If you where Leaf, they could only replace the defective cell. Not you, they will give you an entire new pack.

It will be interesting to know what was the defective cell. An inner or outer cell? I think the problem was not caused by cold, but if the problem happened on an inner cell, I would be more certain.

I'm not so sure Nissan would have replaced the cell at all. Most of those people were told that is part of normal wear and tear, those that did get their cars fixed had to go to the extreme and enact the Lemon Law in their state to have anything done. We are fortunate that Mitsubishi is a taking a different view on this and replacing the battery pack.

Another thing, I wouldn't show any dealership the CanIon application. It would give them grounds to void your warranty. We all know that nothing but monitoring is going on but dealerships will use that as an excuse to not service your car. I've shown them white papers before and that's like showing a bull a red cape - they flip out that a consumer is so well informed, that's not good for business.

 

[Don]

I think any collection of cells (what we call a battery) can have a less than perfect cell in there somewhere . . . . and that cell can look just as good as any other when it's a year or two old - When any battery dies, even an ordinary 12 volt car battery, it's usually because one or more cells has a problem. The rest of the cells might live on for several more years. The battery is finished when any one cell dies

Was it the heat, the cold, discharged too far, recharged too many times? Hard to say what leads the weakest cell to eventually fail . . . . maybe it was just a small defect in manufacturing. All batteries eventually die and usually because of the failure of one or two cells

Another thing, I wouldn't show any dealership the CanIon application

I agree - If I had Canion installed on my car and I knew 10X as much as my dealer does about my battery, I wouldn't mention a word of it to anyone at my dealership - You never know where that might lead. If I had any malfunction with the car and I had a trailer hitch installed, I would remove the hitch before I took it to the dealership. No point in giving them any excuse to deny you warranty coverage

Don

 

[Malm]

That's the end of the story that we where all expecting. In this forum, we are global. I'm sure, if that happens to me, I will have to explain to Mitsubishi Portugal where is the problem. Take some images of canion and show them the defective cell. But for now, and like almost everybody, all charge very much the same. 3 years, 63,500 km and, at least, 4,095 for each cell at 100% SoC.

You can be happy to be i-MiEV. If you where Leaf, they could only replace the defective cell. Not you, they will give you an entire new pack.

It will be interesting to know what was the defective cell. An inner or outer cell? I think the problem was not caused by cold, but if the problem happened on an inner cell, I would be more certain.

I'm not so sure Nissan would have replaced the cell at all. Most of those people were told that is part of normal wear and tear, those that did get their cars fixed had to go to the extreme and enact the Lemon Law in their state to have anything done. We are fortunate that Mitsubishi is a taking a different view on this and replacing the battery pack.

Another thing, I wouldn't show any dealership the CanIon application. It would give them grounds to void your warranty. We all know that nothing but monitoring is going on but dealerships will use that as an excuse to not service your car. I've shown them white papers before and that's like showing a bull a red cape - they flip out that a consumer is so well informed, that's not good for business.

Well, I know some portuguese Nissan Leaf that received new cells, because they could stop any moment, because one defective cell.

I see your point. I think my dealership wouldn't do such a thing. But I can be wrong. I also showed some information, but in my case, they showed a lot of interest in it. Surprisingly interested in my opinions about the car.

Well, I will follow your advice and not show them the canion images. Just tell that I know someone from abroad that had exactly the same problem and they found that it was because of the cell number 16 (the canion is my foreigner friend).

 

[JoeS]

Looking to the future, it will be interesting to see if Mitsubishi sets up a battery refurbishing depot here in North America or if they will find it cost-effective to simply replace defective packs with new (or rebuilt) packs shipped from Japan.

The problem with refurbishing packs is that every individual cell needs to be capacity tested and bad cells replaced with good cells of capacity similar to those in the rest of the pack - perhaps the labor costs of doing that will exceed simply swapping for a new pack? Maybe there is already a targeted second life for reduced-capacity cells and only installing new cell packs makes sense? An interesting issue that I'm sure is being grappled with by all the EV automakers.

Here we are, over two years after the release of the North American i-MiEV, and if I recall on this forum we've only seen three (4?) instances of packs needing replacement - a pretty good track record so far, in my opinion.