Charging the I MIEV @ 6.6 Kw instead the nominal 3.3

[gatedad11]

Thanks a lot for the response. I do plan to be away from the car for 4-5 days. I am thinking of leaving it at an off site airport parking lot if they can promise to charge it up earlier on the day that I plan to return. Getting the car there would leave me at about 30% SOC, so I would be safe in not sitting at 100% for any length of time...

Lou

 

[Llecentaur]

Slightly off the main topic. I can not find if I posted this question before, if so, I apologize.

I would really appreciate an informed opinion on this issue I am having with citroen Switzerland.

They delivered the Czero with a 14.5KWh Battery instead of 16A (220V) and a 8A charger instead of 16A as advertised.

As I realise that upgrading the battery is impossible, I insisted on getting free of charge a 13A charger which seems to be the max of this Panasonic model delivered with the iMiev.

Now citroen has sent a letter they want me to sign to accept that warranty on battery is denied if I use this faster charger !

It seems like kindergarden bulling to me. I can not imagine that the charger of the Czero would accept any current from an EVSE adapter that would harm its normal charging process ?


Also the garage says, use it and don't say anything, we will send the charger to you anyway. Now question is: can the car say that the charge was done at 13A instead of 8 A ? is that something that is saved on a long term basis in a log ? Basically I do not want them to void warranty if once or twice because of a heavier daily schedule I have used the 13A charger.

Many thanks.

 

[JoeS]

Now citroen has sent a letter they want me to sign to accept that warranty on battery is denied if I use this faster charger !
It seems like kindergarden bulling to me. I can not imagine that the charger of the Czero would accept any current from an EVSE adapter that would harm its normal charging process ?

Perhaps I'm missing something, but does not the CZero onboard charger decide how much current to absorb, the maximum available determined by a pilot signal from the EVSE? For example, here in the US, an EVSE pilot signal may say that it has 24A available, but the iMiEV onboard charger will only allow a draw of around 12.5A. Even though it is not J1772, I presume a similar methodology is employed in Europe.

For Citroen to state that using an EVSE with a capability greater than 8A (the EVSE they provided) will somehow damage the battery and void its warranty is technically absurd: public EVSE ("charging stations") are capable of higher currents - does that mean you cannot use a public EVSE connector to feed your CZero? What does your owners manual say about using public EVSEs?

These currents going into the battery pack are still far far lower than the DC Quick Chargers (popular in Japan) that the batteries are capable of absorbing or, for that matter, far far lower than the batteries provide when you are driving.

Was the letter from the dealer or from Citroen headquarters? I would save that letter and escalate the matter through the Citroen channels, if for no other reason than that you might actually learn something technically from them.

Good luck.

 

[Llecentaur]

Thank you Joe for your reply.

I received the EVSE adapter without having signed the document (made by dealer, not Citroen) and guess what ? It is not a 13A but a 10A. OK, it is a little better than the ridiculous 8A I had but still 30% less than 13...

Just shows the lack of knowledge or car industry regarding EVs. This incident really makes me think that it is a generational issue, the mindset is just not there !

I think I will talk to my lawyers to see if I can get what I want after all it is years I have paid a Juridic protection inssurance, lets put it to play see what happens.

 

[Don]

It is not a 13A but a 10A. OK, it is a little better than the ridiculous 8A I had but still 30% less than 13...

We need to define terms here

Your 'ridiculous' 240 @ 8 amp EVSE is still twice as fast as the 120 @ 8 amp that all North American iMiEV's come from the factory with - Our OEM EVSE does a full charge in only 21 or 22 hours . . . . now, that's 'ridiculous' . . . . yours would be a welcome accessory to any of us!

BTW - 10 is 77% of 13, so you're only missing 23% and not 30

Don

 

[Llecentaur]

Don,

You are realistic and optimistic. Looking at the good side of things.

Still bothers me that they promise 13A and deliver 10A while on the disclaimer they also state 13A. Just venting...

Thanks

 

[Berty]

Hi,
I know why they gave you a 10A cable, it's because the 16A is not available anymore. They cancelled this one to prevent some overheating and fire in domestic electric installations that are not designed to support 16A continuously.
But you can still get a 13A cable with UK plug, here's the Peugeot/Citroen reference : 5646.86
Be careful if you use more than 10A, your electrical installation MUST have :
* 2.5 mm2 cables minimum and 16A or 20A protection
* strong 16A socket (like LEGRAND Green'up 0 904 71 for example)

Another point : 16A cable deliver only 14A, and 10A deliver 9A (I did the measurements myself). I don't know about the 8A but I presume it's not more than 7A.

I hope it helps

 

[PV1]

...If you drive it 15 or 20 miles a day and can leave it on the 8 amp 120 charger overnight every other day, I think you'll probably wind up with a battery that lasts a long time.

Don

I know I'm digging back in the posts (bottom post, page 1), but I believe I can give a good real-world example of this situation. I drive 25 miles a day and I charge pretty much only with level 1. The exception to this is every once in a while on a weekend I'll drive farther, and in my first week of ownership I've used 3 public charging stations, but none to a full charge.

 

[Don]

Another point : 16A cable deliver only 14A, and 10A deliver 9A (I did the measurements myself). I don't know about the 8A but I presume it's not more than 7A.

On Level 2, 240 volts, no cable will ever draw more than 14 amps. 14 amps at 240 volts is 3360 watts and the car's onboard charger can only draw a maximum of 3300 watts. Even if you had a 20 or 30 amp EVSE, the car would still draw a maximum of 14 amps

Don

 

[Llecentaur]

Hi Berty,

Thank you for the information.

That is the part number I asked for and the unit did come with an English plug, but with 10A on the box!

Finally, I realise that drawing about 2300 W (10A), is convenient, regarding plugs, safety, of course speed could have been another 23% better.

For example, I noticed that the largest standard plus I can find are indeed 10A, 13A is definitely not standard. For extension wire as well, easier to source, fairly small packaging of 10A extension than 13A...

Finally 10A has some points standing for it.

 

[Zelenec]

Supply of 8, 10, 13, 16A EVSE is country regulations depending in EU. In some EU members (like CH), only 10A is allowed. First cars in Slovenia were delivered with 16A EVSE. In last months only 10A EVSE was possible.

 

[Llecentaur]

That could explain the fact that this last charger I got with A 13A UK plug is only rated 10A...

Not sure if there were real incidents that occurred to push them to reduce, or legal fear of future incidents, or who knows, Petroleum lobbies wanting to make EVs less attractive :twisted:

As far as I know, my clothes dryer pulls 3000 watt and comes with a normal plug, it is really strange suddenly 3000 watts on an EV are so much more trouble than 3000 watts on a dryer !

Am I missing something ?

 

[Zelenec]

Difference is in fact, that your dryer doesn't pull 3000W all the time. Only small part of time in use. Your I-miev does it for at least 5,5 hours constantly at 16A. Ordinary outlets aren't suppose to hold such thermal load, so there is some danger plastic outlet to melt which could lead to fire.

Italian owner of C-Zero told me, that in Italy only 10A are added to cars because of really poor e-grid in mostly all country and disturbance 16A EVSE could mean to the grid. Italian grid is really outdated.

 

[Don]

As far as I know, my clothes dryer pulls 3000 watt and comes with a normal plug, it is really strange suddenly 3000 watts on an EV are so much more trouble than 3000 watts on a dryer !

Am I missing something ?

Can you plug your clothes dryer into any outlet in your house . . . . or do dryers take a special outlet? I'm pretty sure they are trying to make the EVSE safe when plugged into any outlet

Here in the USA, our 120 volt outlets installed in any house built in the last 20 years or so are all rated at 20 amps and they are wired with 12/3 wire. In older homes, the same plug could be wired for only 15 amps (14/2 or 3 wire) and the really old outlets were only good for 10 amps. In addition, many of our household outlets are wired with 3 or 4 outlets on a single circuit breaker (or fuse in an older house) so you could be plugging your EVSE into a circuit where the breaker was also powering something else, like a clothes washer or a refrigerator. Consequently, to be absolutely safe, our EVSE's all came from the factory set for 120 volts at 8 amps - A piddly 960 watts.

Now, here in the USA, ALL of our 240 volt outlets are a single outlet on a single circuit breaker - I cannot think of a modern house with a 240 volt outlet which shares a breaker with any other outlet, so a clothes dryer for instance ALWAYS has it's own breaker . . . . if you're going to recharge from a dryer outlet, you'd have to unplug the dryer first

I'm guessing your clothes dryer outlet is the same - It's 3,000 watt load doesn't share a breaker (or wiring) with anything else, but I'm betting your 240 volt household outlets do. So, if you had a 16 amp EVSE, and it fit your standard household plugs, your charging cable *could be* sharing a breaker with a refrigerator or washing machine and THAT could possibly overload your outlet or the wire feeding it

Keep in mind that electric cars are still in their infancy - All we need is for ONE owner to burn down his house recharging his car and the industry as a whole would suffer a black eye we would never hear the end of

As I mentioned earlier - Be grateful for your 'standard' 2400 watt EVSE . . . . our 'standard' over here is 960 watts

Don

 

[Zelenec]

I wish buyer would have by default option to choose the current for charging their car regarding capabilities of his home grid. It's not expensive to add some switch for switching between different values from low to high current.

 

[Barbagris]

I wish buyer would have by default option to choose the current for charging their car regarding capabilities of his home grid. It's not expensive to add some switch for switching between different values from low to high current.

There are many who make it possible

With a Mennekes, not a Yazaki, but is the same.

There are people that made his own charger:

What do you want? 6A, 8A, 10A, 13A, 16A, 19A, 22A, 26A, 30A

 

[Llecentaur]

Thank you for all feedbacks,

I understand the over loading issue for one phase. I did have such issues with all the devices running, plus pool heater, servers and their UPS, actually I believe one of them was pulling so much current trying to charge a faulty lead battery that it melted it down.

For sure it is safer to "only" add 1800w (original 8A EVSE) rather than 3300 which leaves no margin of error for that given phase.

However, having the choice to choose different amps would be so convenient for those few times when you need it.

barbagris, could you indicate where we could buy this Mennekes charger in Europe ?

 

[fjpod]

Any 110 volt electric dryer in the US pulls a maximum of 1500 watts, which is just under 15 amps.

 

[Don]

I wish buyer would have by default option to choose the current for charging their car regarding capabilities of his home grid. It's not expensive to add some switch for switching between different values from low to high current.

True - Many of us have built our own EVSE's which have the option of setting the charge current

But . . . . if the car manufacturer was to offer something like that, what's to prevent a human error disaster when someone leaves the current set too high for the circuitry? Pretty sure that's why none of the EV manufacturers that I'm aware of are offering adjustable EVSE's. They want to absolve themselves of all possible liability

http://www.openevse.com is an open code source for building your own - They are current adjustable from 6 amps to 20 or more, depending on how you build it. There are Tesla owners who are building 75 amp versions!

Don

 

[Zelenec]

Well, the emphasis is on BY DEFAULT in my post, meaning with the car. All after market EVSEs are expensive and unconvenient to have all those cables in trunk.

(off topic) The other problem in Europe is not yet agreed single standard for charging stations plugs.