DogMan12
Well-known member
Hey all - could one of you provide a layman's summary of what Canion does for us old farts from the Atari generation? :?:
Canion
- Thread starter RobertC
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I finally downloaded the latest version of Canion. I noticed that since version 118 (which I had been using) the battery temps now look more in line with what I would expect based on ambient temperatures. However, I need to stress again that I also believe that the amount of current being put into the battery during charging is not correct by a fairly large margin. This would affect the other calculations like kw in, watt hours per km, etc. The Canion seems to be reading at least 20% less then the actual amount of energy being put into the battery. I have measured this both through the internal charger (offsetting losses due to the charger itself and the DC-DC converter) and by a direct DC input to the battery bypassing the internal charger. This is not a big deal as I can apply a correction to the data but it would be nice if the Canion would be giving correct data. This is in no way a slam against the app. I am really, really pleased that someone would take the time to even write the app for such a small group of vehicles. I am also sure that working on, and maintaining the app, is out of respect for the I-MiEV / Ion community and not for financial gain--which is most likely negative. Again, many thanks for the app and support.
Bonsoir,
canion reflects exactly what I saw with the service tool from peugeot...
@siai47: if you think we should add 20% to the amps when loading, we could do it..
If somebody else can sniff the canbus when using MUT to check the amps when loading, it would be the most efficient way....
Xavier
canion reflects exactly what I saw with the service tool from peugeot...
@siai47: if you think we should add 20% to the amps when loading, we could do it..
If somebody else can sniff the canbus when using MUT to check the amps when loading, it would be the most efficient way....
Xavier
BlueLightning
Well-known member
There is indirect ways to get coefficients for amperage correction at Charge if as me you are able to get precisely your battery capacity.
Post "Charge Battery Capacity Checking with Car Heater, Canion "Wh out" and SoC" http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=18034#p18034
This amperage correction factor at charge seems to be a function of the amperage, with a "16A" AC Charge, as said, the coefficient is of 1.2 or 20%, but with a Chademo DC Charge at around 100 DC Ampere, this coefficient seems to be around 1.1 or 10%.
"16A" AC, Charge Slope is of 13.44 kWh per 100% SoC, multiplied par 1.2, and then I get a number very near to my Battery capacity of 16.13 kW-h
DC Chademo, Charge Slope of 14.68 kW-h per 100% SoC multiplied par 1.1, then I get a number very near to my battery capacity of 16.15 kW-h
(In Seclog data base, Voltage being a correct measure, Coefficient of correction for Energy is the same that for amperage)
Discharge at "driving" is of 15.27 kWh per 100% SoC.
Discharge is a mixture of discharge current which does not need any corrections, and of regeneration.
If a coefficient of 0.64 is applied only to the regeneration current for this trip. Then I get a Slope of 16.26 kWh per 100% SoC which is my battery capacity
For an other trip this coefficient for regeneration only was of 0.71 to get a slope of 16.26 kW-h per 100%SoC at discharge while driving.
Charge DC Chademo and AC ''16A''
Post "Charge Battery Capacity Checking with Car Heater, Canion "Wh out" and SoC" http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=18034#p18034
This amperage correction factor at charge seems to be a function of the amperage, with a "16A" AC Charge, as said, the coefficient is of 1.2 or 20%, but with a Chademo DC Charge at around 100 DC Ampere, this coefficient seems to be around 1.1 or 10%.
"16A" AC, Charge Slope is of 13.44 kWh per 100% SoC, multiplied par 1.2, and then I get a number very near to my Battery capacity of 16.13 kW-h
DC Chademo, Charge Slope of 14.68 kW-h per 100% SoC multiplied par 1.1, then I get a number very near to my battery capacity of 16.15 kW-h
(In Seclog data base, Voltage being a correct measure, Coefficient of correction for Energy is the same that for amperage)
Discharge at "driving" is of 15.27 kWh per 100% SoC.
Discharge is a mixture of discharge current which does not need any corrections, and of regeneration.
If a coefficient of 0.64 is applied only to the regeneration current for this trip. Then I get a Slope of 16.26 kWh per 100% SoC which is my battery capacity
For an other trip this coefficient for regeneration only was of 0.71 to get a slope of 16.26 kW-h per 100%SoC at discharge while driving.
Charge DC Chademo and AC ''16A''
Thanks for the quick replies---I've got to get some accurate numbers on this and make sure that what I think is happening is actually occurring. I also need to make sure the internal loads on the car during external charging are being properly accounted for. It looks like the problem only exists during the charging part of the cycle. It could be how I am connecting into the system through the Chademo connector and letting the car think the power from the external charger is from "regeneration". This might be a specific problem to the way I have connected the charger, not a Canion app problem. During operation, the reported "amps" appears to be correct. I am going to probe the car with a clamp on ammeter at a couple of points so I can get some real numbers at various locations and compare the test meters to what the app is reporting during charging. I need to get the car on a hoist and remove the battery covers to get the meter connected.
BlueLightning
Well-known member
CaniOn SecLog AC versus a Kill-A-Watt Volt Ampere monitor at Wall.
Canion AC see only 86.7 % of the incoming current from the Wall from a "16A" Charger, or in real life a 220Volt, 14 Ampere Charger.
SecLog data give Voltage and amperage before and after the AC / DC converter
DC current is given in SecLog data by "B_VOLT" and "B_AMP" after AC/DC converter, (previous post)
AC current is given in SecLog data by"B_VOLTL" and "B_AMPL" before AC/DC converter in this post.
Canion AC Energy in kW-h = Sum of each SecLog line ( B_VOLTL x B_AMPL x 1 /1000 / 3600 ), one SecLog line is one second.
AC Wall for Canion SecLog versus Kill-A-Watt-h
Canion AC see only 86.7 % of the incoming current from the Wall from a "16A" Charger, or in real life a 220Volt, 14 Ampere Charger.
SecLog data give Voltage and amperage before and after the AC / DC converter
DC current is given in SecLog data by "B_VOLT" and "B_AMP" after AC/DC converter, (previous post)
AC current is given in SecLog data by"B_VOLTL" and "B_AMPL" before AC/DC converter in this post.
Canion AC Energy in kW-h = Sum of each SecLog line ( B_VOLTL x B_AMPL x 1 /1000 / 3600 ), one SecLog line is one second.
AC Wall for Canion SecLog versus Kill-A-Watt-h
Bonsoir,
I do not see real discrepancies(?) in the above posts:
Anyway, the figures stored by canion are the same as seen with the service tool.
Do not forget, nothing is for free. What I understand: the efficiciency of the charger would be around 86%.
Also, when bluelightning writes "I get a number very near to my battery capacity of 16.15 kW-h",
IMHO, it is far from the reality, the servicetool shows a remaining capacity for my batt around 40AH (initially 50AH), so I got already a loss of 20%. (or the servicetool is a big liar).
when siai47 will put a clamp at the right place and can compare the values when loading, we will have more clues...
Xavier
I do not see real discrepancies(?) in the above posts:
Anyway, the figures stored by canion are the same as seen with the service tool.
Do not forget, nothing is for free. What I understand: the efficiciency of the charger would be around 86%.
Also, when bluelightning writes "I get a number very near to my battery capacity of 16.15 kW-h",
IMHO, it is far from the reality, the servicetool shows a remaining capacity for my batt around 40AH (initially 50AH), so I got already a loss of 20%. (or the servicetool is a big liar).
when siai47 will put a clamp at the right place and can compare the values when loading, we will have more clues...
Xavier
OK, I was able to connect an ammeter into the battery circuit and monitor what the Canion program is reporting and what the ammeter is reporting. The first test was looking at the battery current with the internal charger being used. The Canion was showing a input current / power of 7.1 amps / 2.4 KW while the ammeter was showing 7.5 amps / 2.58 KW being delivered to the pack. A small but measurable error that won't affect any users of the app. The interesting thing (and this is what brought up this whole subject) is the error that is generated when you increase the input current. I have a 10 KW charger that I can connect to the battery through the Chademo connector. It doesn't follow the Chademo protocol, therefore it is basically a way of getting to the terminals of the battery in a clean manner. This connection requires the car to be in the "ready" mode and the additional power added to the pack looks like regen to the vehicle. As I start to increase the current into the battery, an error in the current reading begins to develop. Subtracting the 1.2 amps that the vehicle uses in the ready mode to power various systems in the car there is very little error in the ammeter v.s. Canion readings until you pass 15 DC amps of input current. The Canion then starts to read lower then actual input current. Starting at 15 amps there is zero error. At 17 amps, Canion reads -.1, at 20 amps -.6, at 23 amps -2.1, at 25 amps -3.2, at 28 amps -5.3. My feeling is that this is a non-linear error that has to do with how the hall effect transducer deals with the increasing current. The software in the vehicle must have some compensation algorithm that takes care of this. An excellent example of this possibility is to look at the "cockpit" view in the Canion and compare it to the actual instrument panel in the vehicle. When connected and charging at maximum current with my external charger, the needles in the two displays are off by at least 5 amps. The one in the vehicle showing the correct "regen" current.
So, after all of that, I have a better idea (I think) of what's going on. Furthermore, unless you are goofing around with your car like I am, the Canion is accurate enough to do what it is designed to do. Like I said before, it is a great app that helped me learn a lot about the I-MiEV that I couldn't have known without the expense of a M.U.T. III. Finally, that little .4 amp error in the internal charger (stock) setup still bugs me a little bit. I know my ammeter is in calibration and I am reading current at a point where all other vehicles losses are accounted for. Knowing that that error might be there makes me feel a little better about the efficiency of the internal charger. Many thanks again to all of those who have put their time and effort into this great app.
So, after all of that, I have a better idea (I think) of what's going on. Furthermore, unless you are goofing around with your car like I am, the Canion is accurate enough to do what it is designed to do. Like I said before, it is a great app that helped me learn a lot about the I-MiEV that I couldn't have known without the expense of a M.U.T. III. Finally, that little .4 amp error in the internal charger (stock) setup still bugs me a little bit. I know my ammeter is in calibration and I am reading current at a point where all other vehicles losses are accounted for. Knowing that that error might be there makes me feel a little better about the efficiency of the internal charger. Many thanks again to all of those who have put their time and effort into this great app.
BlueLightning
Well-known member
I know that's the discharge is correct when there is no regeneration, that's far enough for me and thanks to Canion and to some other parameters I know that my battery is still a 50 Ah
Canion is a great and smart application, many thanks for it, may be some curves like Charge or volt versus SoC instead of "history" would be welcome to check the State of Healt of the battery or see when calibration occurs.
Battery Capacity Checking with Car Heater, Canion "Wh out" and SoC http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=18034#p18034
As with Wh reg there is an imprecision, I parked the car put the heater on and got a record of kWh out with CaniOn.
Then Thank to Seclog, the sum at each line of B_VOLT x B_AMP x 1 / 1000 / 3600 gave me the kWh out.
The curve's slope is 0.1624 kWh per % SoC, or 16.24 kWh for 100 % SoC wich is the Battery capacity
SoC resolution is of 0.5 %, that's why this curve is showing steps.
If you are more at ease to use the Wh out given by CaniOn on the right side of the screen to draw this curve,
be sure you pick up the value only when there is a change of SoC otherwise the curve slope will be wrong.
Capacity Battery measurement
Canion is a great and smart application, many thanks for it, may be some curves like Charge or volt versus SoC instead of "history" would be welcome to check the State of Healt of the battery or see when calibration occurs.
Battery Capacity Checking with Car Heater, Canion "Wh out" and SoC http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=18034#p18034
Yes Martin, you are right "Measurement of Wh out only is right" and thanks to you I got an easy way to measure my battery capacity.Martin said:
As with Wh reg there is an imprecision, I parked the car put the heater on and got a record of kWh out with CaniOn.
Then Thank to Seclog, the sum at each line of B_VOLT x B_AMP x 1 / 1000 / 3600 gave me the kWh out.
The curve's slope is 0.1624 kWh per % SoC, or 16.24 kWh for 100 % SoC wich is the Battery capacity
SoC resolution is of 0.5 %, that's why this curve is showing steps.
If you are more at ease to use the Wh out given by CaniOn on the right side of the screen to draw this curve,
be sure you pick up the value only when there is a change of SoC otherwise the curve slope will be wrong.
Capacity Battery measurement
BlueLightning, thank you very much for your, as always, insightful analyses.
Regarding continued nagging CaniOn boot-up and stability issues, on the after market stereo thread:
Regarding continued nagging CaniOn boot-up and stability issues, on the after market stereo thread:
Interesting tidbit of information and I hope I'm not taking it out of context but it may explain some of my lingering issues with CaniOn. I don't simply awaken my tablet but always start it up from scratch because in 'sleep' it seems to inordinately drain the battery despite having all the apps turned off, and immediately after it boots up I then try to open CaniOn.priusfan said:
PV1
Well-known member
I've noticed that on my phone, I have to wait for the media scanner to finish before opening CaniOn or I get database errors. When the scanner is running after startup, the SD card is inaccessible to apps.
I'm pretty sure this is a core function of Android.
I'm pretty sure this is a core function of Android.
klindholm
Active member
Is there a way to turn the gps setting to off without running the canion app? I have a tablet without a gps, when I start canion i get the exception: provider doesn't exist: gps. If I select continue I get "An error has occurred in sub: slidingpanels_vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv3 java line: 517 NullPointerException. If I select continue, I get a white screen where the information usually is and I cannot pull down any menus or switch to any screens or get to the settings to turn off gps.
I absolutely love the canion app, thanks so much for the hard work to make it such a great app. I would also put in a vote for a toggle from kilometers to miles.
Kevin
I absolutely love the canion app, thanks so much for the hard work to make it such a great app. I would also put in a vote for a toggle from kilometers to miles.
Kevin
klindholm
Active member
Xavier, When I try the above instructions, I still get the provider doesn't exist error before I can do anything. I am not able to get to settings before that message comes up again.
Thank you for replying, is there anything else I can try?
Kevin
Thank you for replying, is there anything else I can try?
Kevin
Can anyone confirm if the cheaper OBDLink LX (http://www.scantool.net/scan-tools/obdlink-lx.html) will work with CANiOn?
These are the only features missing vs. MX:
- Supports Single-Wire CAN (GMLAN)
- Supports Ford Medium-Speed CAN (MS-CAN)
"Consider purchasing OBDLink MX if you need access to the proprietary Ford & GM vehicle networks (Ford MSC and GMLAN) in addition to the standard OBD-II protocols."
EDIT: Oh! It actually says here https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=emobility.canion&hl=en that LX works! Great!
These are the only features missing vs. MX:
- Supports Single-Wire CAN (GMLAN)
- Supports Ford Medium-Speed CAN (MS-CAN)
"Consider purchasing OBDLink MX if you need access to the proprietary Ford & GM vehicle networks (Ford MSC and GMLAN) in addition to the standard OBD-II protocols."
EDIT: Oh! It actually says here https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=emobility.canion&hl=en that LX works! Great!
