New I-MiEV's --- Maybe, maybe not

[PV1]

Glad you're liking the new Volt. I've spotted a few around Pittsburgh, so the 2017's are definitely out there now. Much better looking than the 1st generation.

Delayed again? The Model X has been out for almost a year now (first one in Pittsburgh arrived at the end of December). Wasn't the Outlander supposed to be available first?

I guess there are 2017 i-MiEVs out there, but not many. I don't think anyone here has one, do they?

 

[Benjamin Nead]

News just out the other day from the European electric car blog, Push EVs, that new i-MiEVs are no longer available for ordering from Mitsubishi in Germany . . .

http://pushevs.com/2016/08/14/mitsubishi-i-miev-no-longer-available-to-order-in-germany/

One of the reader comments here piqued my attention, speculating that - now the Nissan has a controlling financial interest in Mitsubishi - the possibility of a rebranded Renault Zoe showing up on US shores with a Mitsubishi nameplate could be a viable i-MiEV replacement. That's just speculation, but I like the idea. For those who aren't familiar with the Zoe, here's a look . . .

Meanwhile, over on the Plug In Cars blog the other day, I - along with vike (New Mexico based i-MiEV owner who also posts here) - had to jump in and, once again, correct blog owner Brad Berman that the North American i-MiEV is not dead yet . . .

http://www.plugincars.com/mitsubishi-promises-more-plug-models-again-132057.html

I'm wondering what going to happen when the North American i-MiEV finally does go out of production (will the 2017 model be the last one?) and it's officially announced. So many automotive journalists erroneously reported the car's demise last December that they won't know how to tell the story when it actually occurs!

 

[phb10186]

A brand engineered Reanult Zoe is not an I-MIEV replacement in my books.

Other than a good piece of design, its not a car you can buy batteries for outright. It is a Reanult (which isn't a good thing historically), it shares a lot of Nissan technology - but it is unremarkable and does not do anything that well. It also has no CHAdeMO option either I believe. Other than European design flair, it offers little - certainly not as good a car as the I-MIEV.

If Nissan have any sense, they will make Mitsubishi in to the premium EV brand - as Nissan, I believe, are the least good of the Japanese badges since they introduced Reaunult DNA into all their Euro line stuff.

 

[wmcbrine]

[Renault Zoe is] not a car you can buy batteries for outright.

That's a marketing issue, not a technical necessity. A rebadged Zoe needn't work that way.

It also has no CHAdeMO option either I believe.

No, it has a different kind of fast charging that I think is specific to Europe (three-phase AC). But that, too, isn't necessarily a fundamental property of the car. There are other model cars being sold with different charging standards in different countries.

 

[Benjamin Nead]

Yes, agreeing to what wmcbrine is saying . . .

Anything that parent company Nissan would be re-badging as a Mitsubishi to be sold in North America will have all the electrical/mechanical protocol typically found here (J1772 for L1/L2, CHAdeMO for L3) and, of course, left-hand drive. No EV in the US, as far as I know, comes with a battery leasing option and there's no reason to believe such a sales model would be initiated now.

Also . . . anything that comes here has to go through all the US-based testing for crash rating, etc. It's FAR more complex than simply swapping the Renault badge for a Mitsubishi one and putting the car on a shipping container bound for North America instead of Europe.

Again . . . the thought of a re-badged Zoe is purely speculation: an idea I saw from a reader responding to a blog post. I'm actually quite fond of the existing i-MiEV's overly-tall bubbly styling (wasn't always, but it's grown on me over the years.) But if Mitsubishi decides they're not going to make it anymore. the Zoe's lines appeal to me . . . more so than the squared-off aggressive "micro SUV" styling I've been seeing on the company's EV concepts in recent years.

 

[phb10186]

The folks I bought the I-miev from replaced it with a Zoe. It is a very nice piece of styling, granted. It has a 'fast AC' charger which im that knowledgeable about, but I believe its a 3-4 hour charge at 6.6 KWh/ h.

It wasn't surprising that since Nissan and Renault had a tie up (and Renault had dabbles in EVs for a while - not hugely successfully) - that a Renault could fill the sub-compact EV space. UK buyers tend to buy on looks over utility, so it has been popular: a Euro styled small car to the Leaf, which looks very Japanese in style.

Maybe im wrong, that the Zoe could fins its way to NA as a Mitsubishi. Problem I always had with Renault is that they were plagued with mechanical and electrical issues (and diesel engine filter problems); so where the baseline reliability was an existing concern, the Electrical side would also worry me if you know what a Renault is like - perhaps Nissan electrics have solved that these days.

What would be a pity is if a car like the I-Miev were to be replaced by something that didn't live up to the old model. Since Mitsu were one of the pioneeres of EVs, it would be sad for a replacement to the original to be just a brand engineered me-too.

 

[PV1]

I wonder if Tesla would be interested in adopting the i-MiEV. They wouldn't even need to change the name, just put "Model" in front of it. The Tesla Model I. It would be great for the ~$25,000 market. Obviously, the Model 3 takes priority, but after that.

Fastest kei car on the planet :lol: .

The Zoe isn't a bad looking car. If it does come to the US, I hope the electrical system is as solid as the i-MiEV's (a range boost would be nice, too).

 

[misterbleepy]

[Renault Zoe is] not a car you can buy batteries for outright.

That's a marketing issue, not a technical necessity. A rebadged Zoe needn't work that way.

There is now an "i" model, where the battery is included in the purchase price, so no battery rental.

It also has no CHAdeMO option either I believe.

No, it has a different kind of fast charging that I think is specific to Europe (three-phase AC). But that, too, isn't necessarily a fundamental property of the car. There are other model cars being sold with different charging standards in different countries.

The "rapid" charging is 43kW I believe, so not far off 50kW ChaDeMo speed wise.

 

[Benjamin Nead]

I wonder if Tesla would be interested in adopting the i-MiEV. They wouldn't even need to change the name, just put "Model" in front of it. The Tesla Model I. It would be great for the ~$25,000 market. Obviously, the Model 3 takes priority, but after that.

Fastest kei car on the planet :lol: .

Done! . . .

https://autoblopnik.com/?s=tesla+4

:lol:

 

[rkarl89203]

Hmmmm...

It would be fun to have a detachable badge like that just to freak my friends out....

 

[siai47]

The Zoe has a kind of unique internal charger. The I-MiEV and most EV's have a inverter to convert DC to three Phase AC to drive the propulsion motor. They also have a battery charger to convert single phase AC to DC to charge the battery pack. However, an inverter can be made to be bi-directional, that is AC in gives DC out or DC in gives AC out. The old Aeroviroment inverters (the people that brought you the "Impact" prototype GM-EV1, EVSE's and all kinds of neat military stuff) worked this way. It's a natural way to do it. It eliminates the weight, cost and space for the onboard charger. This is the type of system that is used in the Zoe. The problem for us, not the rest of the world, is that most electric service in this country is single phase which would prevent it's use except where three phase power could be found. The other neat thing is that everything is "onboard" in the vehicle---no expensive high voltage DC charger or connecters for QC--- its all done with AC. Heck, if we can make Bruce Jenner AC-DC and DC-AC it should be easy with an EV :lol: !

 

[Phximiev]

LOL

 

[PV1]

How much power can it take with 3-phase? If it can meet or exceed our current DCQC, that makes a compelling reason for US EVs to switch to 3-phase AC quick charging and have the charger on-board vs. having expensive, failure-prone stationary units. It would also standardize the Mennekes connector across both US and Europe. I would also think they could take single phase power and just use part of the converter. Isn't that what our on-board charger does when using 120 volts vs. 240 volts?

Having both functions in one unit (drive and charging) does simplify vehicle manufacturing and saves a few pounds, but it does become a single point of failure, not that our separate charger can take the car out of commission anyways :roll: .

 

[siai47]

Bi-directional inverters can usually flow the same amount of power in either direction. If you have an inverter that can convert DC to AC to drive a 200 KW motor then, instead of connecting the output to the motor, it can be connected to a three phase source, changing the direction of power flow and put 200 KW back into the battery. I would say the failure path is less with this system then the way it is currently being done with US EV's. First, if the drive inverter is functional, then the charging inverter (same unit) is also functional. If the drive inverter is broken, then you never had a chance to drive somewhere in the first place to find out your onboard charger isn't working. Or you could find that your puny onboard charger is working but the level 3 QC charger you want to use is having problems and strands you there looking for a plug somewhere to charge for a day or so. Finally, the QC infrastructure is simple---Three phase outlet, that's it, nothing more or nothing less. I am sure someone would come up with a three phase EVSE to plug into the outlet and then plug that into the car to make everybody happy about plugging in plugs. And, we would need a standards committee to argue about who makes to coolest plug. Of course there would be two competing standards but I digress. The old Aerovironment system was really neat, compact and simple. It even used the coils in the drive motor as part of the inverter circuit! They produced them for a number of years (maybe they still do) for conversions. Someone on this forum must know a little more about them.

 

[Anonymous]

The old Aerovironment system was really neat, compact and simple. It even used the coils in the drive motor as part of the inverter circuit! They produced them for a number of years (maybe they still do) for conversions. Someone on this forum must know a little more about them.

Hi guys.
Sorry to interrupt your excitement about this one. We've got plenty of the "old" models of the Zoe driving around over here and they have caused a lot of trouble for users and owners when charging.
This technology of charging requires the resistance to ground to be relatively low and in our case considered extremely low. Below 150 Ohms. Most installations here having a TT grounding system meaning a separat ground, are up to 1600 Ohm. So a far away from 150 Ohm. Actually Renault suggest a level of 100 Ohm to ensure the Zoe will charge.
Same goes for quickcharge stations where I recently heard from a family how they were unable to charge from some quickcharge stations and had to locate a nearby AC charging point and wait for hours.
I've spoken to ABB staff servicing some of the quickcharge stations here and heard how they struggle adjusting the settings in the DC chargers so they also accommodate this version of Zoe.

In my work I've made several charging installations for Zoe's and almost everytime this has required improvement of grounding. On the first version of Zoe Renault required the installations being equipt/protected using rcd's capable of the AC/DC type also known as type B around here. Those are 10-20 times more expensive than Type A (regular) ones.
In average this has cost Zoe owners somewhere between €1.000-€2.000 more than a setup for a similar 3-phase charging ev, such as Tesla.
The lastest version of Zoe has another inverter using similar technology as other 3-phase inverters.

The first version of Zoe is also known to be sensitive to electrical distortion and only a few weeks ago I was helping a Zoe owner to identify why his Zoe wouldnt charge during sunny weather. We found how it was sensitivity towards distortion from grid connected solar inverters which was connected in their house and their neighbours grid connected solar inverters.
The inverters used are from SMA a recognized brand worldwide. Our perspective started by trying to prove to the manifacture how the inverters was posing a problem and distorting the electricity for the car to fail in charging. We asked the utility company to assist us in make tests on the grid as they have the equipment to do this stuff.
We started out datalogging the quality on the grid on a sunny day. Then tried to charge the Zoe, which stopped seconds after due to charging error as had happened before.
Then we had agreed with the nearby neighbours having solar inverters to get access to the power boards and solar inverters and started by turning off all connected circuits/appliances and only having the solar inverters online. This way to remove any potential pollutive devices connected.
We used a couple of instruments to measure and one was a Fluke 435 which measures distortion according to international standards to which manifactures of electrical appliances need to live up to.
Next we tried to charge the car once again while only having the solar inverters online. This gave the same resulte of failing to charge.
Next we disconnected all solar inverters (some 25 or so) and tried to charge the car which was now able to charge without interruption.

Measurements from the instruments showed how the distortion rate by the solar inverters was within the limits of the standards. Interestingly the Fluke instrument showed how when charging the Zoe, and everything else being off, the distortion rate exceeded the international standards. I recall how the engineer from the utility company was astonnished to see this and informed the owner of the Zoe to have the car checked.

We informed Renault about the findings and borrowed another Zoe to check about whether this one would charge. Sadly the same thing happend to a same version Zoe. Charge failur. Unable to charge when solar inverters was connected. I asked the customer as to whether this issue was isolated to only sunny days and the response was how the car was also unable to charge during cloudy days as well and how they were only able to charge the car when the sun was down.

Out of curiosity and wanting to support of a fellow ev owner I asked Renault to try their latest version of Zoe with the other inverter. This one is limited to max 22kW charge, still without DC charge option. This particular version was fully able to charge when the solar inverters was connected to the grid.

Another aspect when people consider getting an ev here and consider the Zoe is how Renault only allow rental of the batteries. Which means people get a price on the car whether new or used, and then in additional cost comes rental of the battery. Something which deters most of those I have spoken to around here which otherwise enjoy the design and comfort of the car.

 

[rmay635703]

Perhaps we need to say F U to safety, just ground per the standard and setup our cars to be more ignorant and accepting of grounding issues.

My old EVs, you just plugged them into normal cable, no ground fault and it the thing charged fine without any problems.

 

[Benjamin Nead]

I suppose I can take the blame in suggesting that the Zoe could be rebranded and made into a replacement for the existing i-MiEV for the US. It's probably not going to happen, but here are some things to consider, even if it was . . .

Why is it automatically assumed that the charging electronics in the European market car absolutely has to be part of a proposed North American product? Or the ownership model with leased battery absolutely has to be part of it as well? That's like saying that if all Zoes sold in Luxembourg were painted purple with pink spots, all North American Zoes (or the rebranded whatever you want to call it) are going to have to be painted exactly the same way.

The car is molded sheet metal and plastic. Nissan/Renault/Mitsubishi can paint it any color they want for whatever market they want. They can remove metal badges and other trim decorations and even rename it.

Likewise, they can install any sort of charger they want to match the requirements and expectations of a particular market. Those are metal boxes with electronics, attached with nuts, bolts and wire terminations. And . . . they can set up any sort purchase model regarding the battery they would want for a particular market.

Again . . . cars start off as shells: molded sheet metal and plastic, waiting to have all the other stuff bolted onto it. The stuff that gets bolted onto the shell is open for change, depending upon where the vehicle is destined to be sold. Please grasp that reality first before assuming the rest.

 

[phb10186]

^ yup... that's true they could sling most of the electrics and specify what works for a USDM...

It's about time that all of us used the same technology... but that would require the US to go to 240v ac... which would cost a bomb, but it would be really useful for the future.

 

[rmay635703]

^ yup... that's true they could sling most of the electrics and specify what works for a USDM...

It's about time that all of us used the same technology... but that would require the US to go to 240v ac... which would cost a bomb, but it would be really useful for the future.

Since we are split phase anyway, I always thought that instead of the 240v "duplex" receptacle (which is dimensionally the same as 120v but with a different key)

We should have one that is physically compatible with a 120v outlet but then include an upper keyed pin so it would be future proofed and compatible with 240v split phase appliances, which could be coffee makers, microwaves, big copying machines and really all manner of other crapola.

If such a standard would just start to be installed in new homes, your installed base of homes would eventually reach critical mass forcing some standardization of 240 vac devices.

Where as today its an act of congress to have something be 240vac because oh, its not always the same, oh its got to be hardwired, oh very complicated, need an electrician.

 

[phb10186]

^ yup... that's true they could sling most of the electrics and specify what works for a USDM...

It's about time that all of us used the same technology... but that would require the US to go to 240v ac... which would cost a bomb, but it would be really useful for the future.

Since we are split phase anyway, I always thought that instead of the 240v "duplex" receptacle (which is dimensionally the same as 120v but with a different key)

We should have one that is physically compatible with a 120v outlet but then include an upper keyed pin so it would be future proofed and compatible with 240v split phase appliances, which could be coffee makers, microwaves, big copying machines and really all manner of other crapola.

If such a standard would just start to be installed in new homes, your installed base of homes would eventually reach critical mass forcing some standardization of 240 vac devices.

Where as today its an act of congress to have something be 240vac because oh, its not always the same, oh its got to be hardwired, oh very complicated, need an electrician.

Don't worry I'm used to that kind of regulatory approach here too... it all filters to a bunch of fools who write documents, but can't even change a light bulb, all of them ruled by an even bigger idiot at the top.