Help for peugeot Ion 2012 that doesn't work.

[Franco Vecchi]

Hi everyone, I brought home with the tow truck an ION which starts but gives an error as soon as I put a gear in it. Furthermore, charging seems to start, but after a short while it goes into standby.
I tried with OBDzero and the traction battery is at around 40% and the cells are all within 10mV. I charged the service battery and managed to move the car for a few metres, then it suddenly stopped.
The 12V battery is recharged (in READY I measure a voltage higher than 14.2V). CANBUS communication with bluetooth adapter is very difficult, it constantly disconnects and I can't make any test in a stable state. I also use the same OBD adapter with the Nissan Leaf where it works very well and is always stable, so I assume there are problems on the CANBUS of the ION.
After several attempts I managed to find the P1A52 error, (using CarScannerPro) which should concern the first cell.
With such cumbersome communication with the app I was unable to see and monitor under load the voltage of the first cell if it drops.

First of all I would like to have stable communication, what do you recommend I check in this regard?
if useful, i have a usb oscilloscope.

Thank you

 

[MickeyS70]

CANBUS communication with bluetooth adapter is very difficult, it constantly disconnects and I can't make any test in a stable state. I also use the same OBD adapter with the Nissan Leaf where it works very well and is always stable, so I assume there are problems on the CANBUS of the ION.

The triplets are very selective when it comes to OBD dongle/app combinations, the fact that it works well on your Leaf doesn’t mean it will do the same on an Ion.

Hobdrive (paid version) seems to be the only app that works reliably with even ‘low cost’ Bluetooth dongles on Android.

If you have a (spare) laptop, you may also look into Diagbox/MUT3.
https://myimiev.com/threads/overvie...ters-their-functionality-and-the-future.5719/

Whatever you choose, it’s essential to be able to establish reliable CAN communication.

After several attempts I managed to find the P1A52 error, (using CarScannerPro) which should concern the first cell.

This could be caused either a weak cell or more likely a faulty channel on the CMU01 board, either way it will most likely require to remove the HV battery to fix it…

 

[Franco Vecchi]

The triplets are very selective when it comes to OBD dongle/app combinations, the fact that it works well on your Leaf doesn’t mean it will do the same on an Ion.

Hobdrive (paid version) seems to be the only app that works reliably with even ‘low cost’ Bluetooth dongles on Android.

If you have a (spare) laptop, you may also look into Diagbox/MUT3.
https://myimiev.com/threads/overvie...ters-their-functionality-and-the-future.5719/

Whatever you choose, it’s essential to be able to establish reliable CAN communication.

This could be caused either a weak cell or more likely a faulty channel on the CMU01 board, either way it will most likely require to remove the HV battery to fix it…

Thankyou, for the moment i prefer to use an app on smartphone, but I'm not able to buy Hobdrive (payment problem, maybe for war? ) so i tried other app.
Which OBD adapter can you recommend?

 

[MickeyS70]

Which OBD adapter can you recommend?

My personal preference OBDLink LX, hands down, it’s not cheap, but has been proven to work with all ‘triplet’ approved apps (Android).

Courtesy of @Rational there is a set of short videos on how to set it up, see post 9 below:

https://myimiev.com/threads/smartphone-tablet-apps-for-i-miev-c-zero-and-ion.4936/

 

[Franco Vecchi]

thank you @MickeyS70 and @Rational !
a few hours ago, with a mechanic friend of mine, with his professional tool, we verified this situation:

The car works, and goes into "ready". Only if the battery current exceeds 4 A does the P1A52 error appear. Whether by run in D or in R, turn on Heather or AC system.
If the battery current is less than 4A, everything works fine.

An error relating to current absorption is also reported about cell 1, as warning, not DTC
What could it be? Is it necessary to open the battery pack?
Battery is at SOC about 35% and all cells are all within 10mV. About 3,8V.

 

[MickeyS70]

The car works, and goes into "ready". Only if the battery current exceeds 4 A does the P1A52 error appear. Whether by run in D or in R, turn on Heather or AC system.
If the battery current is less than 4A, everything works fine.

An error relating to current absorption is also reported about cell 1, as warning, not DTC
What could it be? Is it necessary to open the battery pack?

P1A52 is set if one of the 8 cells of CMU01 reports a cell voltage of less than 2.3V

All cells are connected in series, therefore the current is the same through all 88. A weak cell will drop its voltage under load, although 4A is nothing (foot to the floor will result in about 150A).

It would be interesting to compare the reported voltage of cell1 with the rest a) when the car is ready and b) when P1A52 appears..

Unfortunately yes, you’re looking at removing the battery pack next..

 

[Franco Vecchi]

P1A52 is set if one of the 8 cells of CMU01 reports a cell voltage of less than 2.3V

All cells are connected in series, therefore the current is the same through all 88. A weak cell will drop its voltage under load, although 4A is nothing (foot to the floor will result in about 150A).

It would be interesting to compare the reported voltage of cell1 with the rest a) when the car is ready and b) when P1A52 appears..

Unfortunately yes, you’re looking at removing the battery pack next..

I did as you say: continuously look at the cell voltage both before and at the moment the error is triggered, unfortunately the diagnostic tool does not report any significant changes (only few mV). The sampling time is probably too high . But it seems strange to me that a cell can have such a high voltage difference (from 3.8 to 2.3V) with only 4A and be perfectly balanced at rest. When I started the car fisrt time, the SOC was just over 40% and now it is around 35, so some Ah was taken from the battery without any cell dropping more than the others.
Couldn't it be a BMS problem or a "loose bolt" in the busbar? or could it be a defect in the current sensor?

 

[MickeyS70]

I did as you say: continuously look at the cell voltage both before and at the moment the error is triggered, unfortunately the diagnostic tool does not report any significant changes (only few mV). The sampling time is probably too high . But it seems strange to me that a cell can have such a high voltage difference (from 3.8 to 2.3V) with only 4A and be perfectly balanced at rest.

yes, such a big voltage drop is unlikely been caused by a faulty cell

Couldn't it be a BMS problem or a "loose bolt" in the busbar? or could it be a defect in the current sensor?

Assuming the reported DTC is correct and ruling out a weak cell, what's left is most likely a faulty channel on CMU01.

Why it only happens @ currents above 4A is strange, but it could be explained that the A/D converter on the LTC chip is not working correctly below a certain voltage, in this case even a drop of a a few mV could cause a fault. The error will then stop the current and the voltage recovers immediately, hence you see no difference??

The good new is that this could be 'fixed' (at least temporarily) by using a CAN bridge that will correct the faulty readings without having to remove the HV battery.

see below
https://myimiev.com/threads/cmu-can-‘spoofing’.5505/

 

[Franco Vecchi]

Thankyou, just ordered arduino kit for can bridge. I will try to spoof the error , and then see what happens and decide what to do....

 

[Franco Vecchi]

Made some other test: using CarScanner i see that there are two different fields with voltage of battery. Only one of these change quickly , and when is there current sink from battery, the voltage drop a lot!
it is difficult to see because the car goes out from Ready immediatly and the value change very quickly!
336,4V at 0Amps ---> 308,02V at -2A
It seems that the internal resistance of the battery is about 14 Ohms ...

in the weekend i will take some misurations using a clamp ampermeter and a voltmeter , if can find a place where to connect.
But symptoms are coherent with misurations ...
14/88= 0,16 ohm of internal R of modules? is it possible?

 

[MickeyS70]

Made some other test: using CarScanner i see that there are two different fields with voltage of battery. Only one of these change quickly , and when is there current sink from battery, the voltage drop a lot!
it is difficult to see because the car goes out from Ready immediatly and the value change very quickly!
336,4V at 0Amps ---> 308,02V at -2A

That looks like a complete module (CMU01?) is reporting 0V back to the BMU…

It seems that the internal resistance of the battery is about 14 Ohms ...

It’s usually around 1mOhm per cell..

in the weekend i will take some misurations using a clamp ampermeter and a voltmeter , if can find a place where to connect.
But symptoms are coherent with misurations ...

The inverter (MCU) under the boot lid is probably the best place to measure, but beware of HV..

Looking at your screen shot:

- battery seems to be brand new (45.8Ah) or more likely, the capacity got reset somehow
- the pack seems very imbalanced (500mV between the min/max values)

Can you post the voltages (when in Ready) of all 88 cells?

 

[Franco Vecchi]

The pack is very well balanced when there is no current in the main battery, it become different only under load. For now i havent screenshot of this, i will make it.
yesturday The 12V battery goes too low, and i haven't the possibility to make other tests.
For what i know , the pack is the original one.

The car actually is in parked on public area... and i'm waiting for the delivery of a new 12V battery.
In the weekend i will go there with my Leaf +inverter and a battery charger, and hope a new 12V battery, tester ecc and will make some other tests.

 

[MickeyS70]

Had another look at your screenshot, and re-read your description. Correct me if wrong: the BMU total Voltage (336V) remains stable but the BMU target cell voltage drops fast?

The second value is calculated for balancing purposes only and isn’t real. It’s always lower than the weakest cell voltage multiplied by number of cells (88).

I can’t see the ID of the lowest cell on your screenshot, however if it doesn’t change, we’re back to a single (reported) cell voltage causing all this.

i'm waiting for the delivery of a new 12V battery. In the weekend i will go there with my Leaf +inverter and a battery charger, and hope a new 12V battery, tester ecc and will make some other tests.

Charge your new 12V aux overnight to be on the safe side; as soon as the car drops out of ready, all low voltage power comes from the small battery.

While jump starting the existing battery is possible, best to replace it altogether as a weak, worn 12V aux is know to cause all sorts of strange issues.

 

[Franco Vecchi]

Thanks @mikeys70,
I have seen that the battery voltage value in the highest field remains almost constant, while the other varies instantly and drops a lot under load and then returns approximately equal to the other as soon as the load decreases, as when the car is in error and exits "ready" mode.
Thanks for pointing out to me that there is a very low minimum cell voltage value, tomorrow I will try to see with Canion the value of all the cells by applying the load and understand which ones are sitting down with so little current.
As I was saying, my car is far from home and I can only go every now and then.
The new 12V battery will arrive next week: I had to order it online as in the local shops there is no battery that can fit through the front hood of the ION. At the moment I connect a good, charged battery in parallel to the internal one and it works well, but I can't leave it connected permanently for now. I'm still not very familiar with this type of machine and I don't really know what the difference is between the two battery voltage values present in carScanner.

 

[Franco Vecchi]

Just one more question : if I have to replace the entire battery pack, if I find one from the same year, can I replace it directly without doing any other operations or is it something more complicated? If it were a more recent model battery, would the can bridge be needed? (sorry but I've read a lot of things in the forum these days, but there are a lot of posts and sometimes I get lost among them...)

 

[kiev]

You could swap it out directly (plug and play) with minimal operations and without a bridge into the CAN Buss.

The only operation that might be needed would be to "reset" the BMS to the capacity of the "new" pack.

Your pack data scan doesn't have the correct units for capacity, so i doubt that any of that data is correct. Can't trust a tool that doesn't even know what it is reading.

Measuring and verifying the "new" pack capacity before purchase might be a challenge without clever skills and a known-to-be good scan tool, so beware the claims of dishonest scammers.

 

[MickeyS70]

Your pack data scan indicates 16Ahr capacity, so it's at about 33% of the original 45 Ahr.

Are you sure, my take on the CarScanner data is that SoC is about 33% while SoH is 100%?

 

[kiev]

while SoH is 100%?

Is that even possible on such an old car?

See my edits on post #16--i think that app is no good and can not be trusted for anything.

1. Incorrect units for capacity.
2. Confusion of total Pack voltage with cell target voltage.

 

[MickeyS70]

Is that even possible on such an old car?

No, not with an original 2012 battery, but I have seen one or two instances of ‘spontaneous’ battery capacity resets.

See my edits on post #16--i think that app is no good and can not be trusted for anything.

1. Incorrect units for capacity.
2. Confusion of total

CarScanner (like every other OBD app) pulls data from various known PIDs and translates them into ‘understandable’ information. While the units may not be correct, the values ‘seem’ to make sense, imho ODBZero/Canion will show very similar values.

As already mentioned, ‘BMU Battery target value’ is only used to balance the pack and is calculated based on the lowest cell voltage. It will drop significantly if the lowest cell value (#6?) changes.

The only way to verify the current HV battery capacity is to do a calibration charge, however the car needs to be fully functional before one can attempt it…