GENTLEMEN. I need help.

[Mievo]

JoeS; the RR after work, charging today showed 65 miles. Distance to and from is 42mi at 6:15am and 3:30pm. 50/50, 45-55 mph speed limits. I try to keep pace with traffic. Got home with 3 bars and charged to full. It took 3.5 hours and added 10.3kWh.

I have canion and a cheap OBDII scanner that can't pull the data. No evbatmon.

I cruised a little bit to take stress off the battery.

Imagine en Evo X that made 310 HP at factory, then only made 235.5 HP at 34,xxx mi.Or perhaps a Mirage that got 44mpg new and 32 mpg at 34,xxx miles. WHO WOULDN'T BE PISSED?!
I have a contractor job. It needs to at least make it one way to work on the interstate with enough range to limp to a quick charger;(4-40mi one way) if not, it's a lemon by definition.
It has a problem with a part that is covered by warranty, dealer refuses warranty work; lemon.

 

[Don]

Imagine en Evo X that made 310 HP at factory, then only made 235.5 HP at 34,xxx mi.Or perhaps a Mirage that got 44mpg new and 32 mpg at 34,xxx miles. WHO WOULDN'T BE PISSED?!.

Gas engine cars don't typically have a falloff in either power or mileage as they age, so, yeah, if you experienced that, you should be ticked off and likely you would have a 'lemon law' case

EV's on the other hand all have a range falloff as the battery ages and as an educated buyer, you knew that was a distinct possibility before you plunked your money down. Mitsu told us to expect up to 20% and that would be considered normal and not addressed by the battery warranty - There is no warranty for batteries which have a reduced range . . . . only for batteries which are defective and by definition, a battery which loses 20% of it's capacity over time is not 'defective'. It still charges and discharges as designed. I don't believe you are missing 20%. None of us had a true usable 16 kw when the car was brand new. It was in the low 15's and now maybe you have 13.5 or 14 - You'll know more when you run EVBatMon

How the car performs range wise varies greatly with the experience of the operator. You're new at this and it's not stretching the laws of probability to say that another driver could not easily go 15 to 20% farther on each charge than you are going - This is why Joe advised you to 'show us what you can do' - What you're experiencing is not all the car's fault. Any of us could drive your car and only get 40 miles per recharge . . . . even worse than you're doing

An educated EV buyer can use tools like Canion and EVBatMon before purchase to know exactly what you're buying. At the very least, the results should be used to negotiate on the purchase price

Don

 

[JoeS]

Hi Mievo, thanks for your numbers.

JoeS; the RR after work, charging today showed 65 miles.

That's ok, as that number falls into the 'normal' range.

Distance to and from is 42mi at 6:15am and 3:30pm. 50/50, 45-55 mph speed limits. Got home with 3 bars and charged to full. It took 3.5 hours and added 10.3kWh.

42mi/10.3kWh = 4.1 mi/kWh which is a good typical number. Both of these show that your driving is close to 'average'. I presume you arrive at work with around 10-11 bars?

I try to keep pace with traffic.

Around many parts of this country, keeping pace with traffic means >80mph. :roll: As a test, you might try marching to the beat of your own drum in the right lane to see if you can improve your numbers - latching onto a truck and following it gives a big visual block to anyone coming up behind you. You might explore the various range-improving tricks so they're at-hand when you might really need them.

I cruised a little bit to take stress off the battery.

Good! You might try programming your Remote to charge the car s.t. it gets to the fully-charged state just before you take off for work the following morning.

I have a contractor job. It needs to at least make it one way to work on the interstate with enough range to limp to a quick charger;(4-40mi one way)...

In your shoes I would look around and see where I could plug the car in while at work. A few hours at 120vac L1 is all you'd need for some further peace of mind. 'Opportunity charging' has been a BEV mantra for over 120 years.

...if not, it's a lemon by definition.It has a problem with a part that is covered by warranty, dealer refuses warranty work; lemon.

I don't believe battery degradation is a warranty item. OTOH, Mitsubishi has been excellent about replacing the pack when an outright cell failure is detected.

 

[Mievo]

Thanks Don and Joe S for input. I have Canon but not EVbatmon. I need to get another OBD2 Bluetooth reader, but I can't spend the money at the moment. I've been trying to get my auto insurance to pick up their end of a medical bill health insurance covered their part. My account was levied shortly after I got the car so I am still in recovery and it's going to take time before I have any discretionary spending. I'm picking up woodworking creating home furniture clean professionally built but it is slow going and I can't quite rely on that for siding come yet I still need to get myself a stall at the local market.

When I say I keep Pace with traffic that is typically in the nearby areas with the speed limits are between 25 and 55. On Interstate 4 in Florida the only time I exceed 60 miles per hour is when I'm able to draft a trailer and I stay safe, but very close. The 21 Mile one way trip to the most common job site; it's a very large one, 6 bars are typically consumed under good conditions. Those good conditions are normal pace of traffic in which I don't have to hurry because there aren't many cars on the road. I ideally I would like to have more traffic to keep a reasonable speed is in the limit, as well as having large vehicles to break the wind. On bad days where it may rain for part of the trip, more are consumed. Last time I lost eight bars driving to this job site (I did not leave home with a full charge it had 15 of 16). Nearby is a small town that does have two public Chargers. They are aerovironment 16 amp 240 volt Chargers, and I can pick up a few bars at lunch once in a while. My best metric thus far has been extrapolating from range driven, bars remaining, and cross-referencing with the amount of power put back into the battery; by the chargepoint station at the apartment. It is connected to the network, so I can see on the website. That extrapolated range not including the turtle mode Reserve shows 12.2kWh at the absolute maximum calculation. However, accuracy is prudent. I will get back to this when I can throw money at a better OBD2 scanner.

 

[Mievo]

I would also like to note that the further away the job site the more likely it is to be in a rich area and I nearly 100% of the time, cannot have access to a 120 volt Outlet. Hence my earlier comment that it needs to be able to hobble back to a nearby quick charger. There are a few quick Chargers within 10 miles of each of our large wealthy job sites.

 

[Don]

How you accelerate from 25 to 55 has a lot to do with how far the car will go - If you do it keeping the needle to the left side of the center mark, you will use lots less juice. It will take you longer to get to 55, but you'll waste less energy doing it. Same with decelerating from 55 back to 25 - If you do that without using the brakes you'll save lots too. Friction braking is energy lost. Better to use regenerative braking whenever possible. That can give you back as much as 80% of the energy you used accelerating . . . . assuming you didn't waste a ton of juice accelerating

The more efficient you get with operating the car, the higher your RR numbers after a recharge will be and the farther you can go. It takes a little while to master the techniques, but it's worth the effort

This advice comes from someone who has never plugged into a DCQC charger in the 5+ years we've had the cars . . . . and we've never ever come close to not making it to our destination

Don

 

[PV1]

Just out of curiosity (although likely irrelevant), what brand tires are on your car? You might be seeing the effects of increased rolling resistance on top of battery degradation.

 

[Mievo]

Just out of curiosity (although likely irrelevant), what brand tires are on your car? You might be seeing the effects of increased rolling resistance on top of battery degradation.

I thought they were factory; Dunlop Enasave 01. 145/65/R15, 175/60/R15

 

[PV1]

Yes, those are the OEM tires. I was thinking that maybe you had Yokohama tires, which are known to take a considerable hit on range. I put the front Yokos that are on Koorz onto Bear for a few days. I easily lost 5+ miles of range with just changing two tires.

 

[Mievo]

I had a modification question. Has anyone tried similar-sized low profile tires, sport tires, or larger Wheels?
What is the effect on Range or rolling resistance in stop-and-go or highway traffic?

Has anyone on here tried air tabs and used them for long period of time?

Also, I've noticed that there is a lot of heavy metal in this car that is Leaps and Bounds greater than it needs to be; examples being the supports under the rear seats which hold the air compressor and leak sealant housing, and what Kiev mentioned about the dashboard supports or as he called, them knee shredding. Has anyone attempted to replace it with comparable strength aluminum carbon fiber or fiberglass materials? Granted if you're in New Jersey, Rockaway recycling center will sell you titanium scrap which would be a good alternative.

I know this probably should be in a modifications thread but that threat is long dead there aren't very many new posts so this is in my very recent post which is been getting lots of attention. Thanks in advance for any speedy replies. Have a good Memorial Day weekend.

 

[JoeS]

Mievo, you are going through a phase many of us went through when we first got our i-MiEVs: how to extend its range.

Air Tabs, vortex generators, wheel skirts, etc. are discussed in Aerodynamic Mods to Reduce Drag

Air Tabs, specifically: http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1396

You can read those threads and draw your own conclusions. I still haven't finished my partially-fiberglassed wheel skirts and haven't much motivation to do so…

Wheels and tires: even if you could find something that would fit and not cost you an arm and two legs, you'll be hard pressed to find anything with a lower LRR than the stock i-MiEV setup.

Weight - it doesn't much matter once the car is rolling. You could try removing a pound here and there, but it won't make much of a difference compared to the horrible aerodynamic losses at speed. For example, I now continuously carry a 50# box with two spare tires and a jack and lug wrench, in addition to the almost-50# trailer hitch. Even climbing hills doesn't matter much, because you recover a lot of energy when going back down the hill.

After five years with i-MiEVs, I simply say that my range is whatever I need it to be to get to my destination, and I drive accordingly. Having a dedicated GPS with a nice instrument screen (e.g., Garmin 255) gives a DTG which you can bounce against RR for peace of mind.
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=566&p=32038#p25993
Most of the time I'm a leadfoot, but on rare occasions pull out my hypermiling tricks. Never have any worries, and still have never seen turtle.

My suggestion is for you to get some miles under your belt and develop a feel for the exact mileage to your verious destinations. Planning ahead soon becomes second-nature.

 

[Mievo]

I may try airtabs if for nothing other than high speed stability. Also, am an on/off engineering student and I love practice. I will relish in remanufacturing oem parts from lighter materials. I would like to seal up the under carriage and test the aero effect of closing the grill vs the temp increase.

ALSO! Has anyone tried using a high performance/home-made air-to-water intercooler as a heat exchanger for the HVAC? I live in Florida. It's feckin hot. AC is mandatory after 4p, you will die.

Wheels - are there comparably sized lightweight wheels; and I mean -10kgs all around. Less than that, screw it.
Conversely; at high speed, would higher mass wheels help? Increased moment of inertia, but also higher momentum. (And unsprung weight..)

I have this crazy idea; a windbreaker. Start with an umbrella shape. Pound vortex generators into it and extend away from the front of the car. Ideally, one would want a shape with a better CD than the car.

I will be testing to see what I can do under ideal circumstances. I never have, I can only extrapolate ~70-80 miles at speeds 35-45 mph. (Half battery and 35-40RR)

 

[Don]

There are probably a half dozen things you can do which would get you an extra 1 or 2% of range . . . . in theory - It's hard to actually see any improvement in real world conditions, probably because you can waste more than 3 or 4% in all sorts of ways - One jackrabbit start, one quick acceleration from 30 to 60 and then your 'improvement' is nil

As Joe mentioned, we have all kinds of threads here going back 5+ years where nearly everything you can think of has been tried, usually with little to no provable improvement. You could spend big bucks and lots of time to remove 100 pounds from the car and never see the 'expected' 1 or 2% improvement in range. If I'm ever in an accident in one of these cars, I would want every pound of metal the factory put in there and more

Keep the tires properly inflated, gentle on the accelerator and stay away from friction braking can get you 10 or 15% more range than the way you're accustomed to driving an 'ordinary' car - If you want/need longer range, that's the best place to start. Those skills will come in very handy one day when you have 15 miles left to go and your RR only says you can go 8 or 10 - You'll make it if you're careful

The A/C takes away 10 or 15% of your range - Careful driving can get you back about the same amount

Don

 

[Mievo]

I'm aware of the driving efficiency improvements. I can manage 70 or so miles on my off days. I am relegated to 45-50 miles at 45-60mph speeds for work though. I do the speed limit, and many folks are upset about that. I was looking for any booster that could help range. I am not one for chincy cobbled together material. I build tough. I'll sift through the forum history, thanks.

 

[Don]

I'm aware of the driving efficiency improvements. I can manage 70 or so miles on my off days.

That' a tremendous improvement from your first post here 2 weeks ago - At least now you know there's nothing wrong with the car!

Don

 

[Mievo]

No, no. After one entire week of close calls and too much drinking (range-anxiety related); I am convinced that I have access to 60% of he car's battery.


Everyone in this thread, I want charge times. Mine will charge from --- to full in ~4 hours on my apartment Chargepoint Station.

I believe about 16 hours on the 8amp 120v.

 

[Don]

Everyone in this thread, I want charge times. Mine will charge from --- to full in ~4 hours on my apartment Chargepoint Station.

Charge times vary greatly depending on what you're using to charge the car - Not a good basis for any meaningful battery comparison. Also, the '---' on the RR display isn't an indication of either how much energy you have used, nor how much energy you have remaining in the battery. It's just a calculated indication of how far you can go based on how much energy you have used to cover the previous 15 miles so it can vary all over the place and you can't count on that as a meaningful point when attempting to compare anything

You could ask to compare EVBatMon readings with others here and that will tell you how your battery compares with others here who are using that app - Nobody is going to see anything near 16 kw, so don't be alarmed if you see 13.5 to 14.5 kw

Don

 

[veimi]

I believe about 16 hours on the 8amp 120v.

Mine also takes approximately this long to reach 16 bars from less than 2 bars, but if left plugged in will continue charging significantly longer (18 hours total) because of balancing.

My RR after 16 hours - 67.7 mi. (109 km)

My RR after 18 hours - 68.3 mi. (110 km)

 

[Mievo]

Yeah, I do mean full; charging stops. I'd like EVbatmon, but it's $18 and I'll need a more advanced obdii scanner. I can't rely on the RR until it's under half and I've been steady. I have not made it home 3 times this week. I have had to stop an pick up extra power, before being able to get home. I've quick charged 5 times since getting the car. I have enrolled in EVgo's "On the Go" plan.

If I use highways at 60mph or under; needle in eco in eco mode, my range will be 35mi or less. I always need destination charging. I only make return trips from the Mount Dora job site because it is a flat state route and there are many large trucks to break the wind.

 

[JoeS]

...I have enrolled in EVgo's "On the Go" plan.

That's expensive!

If I use highways at 60mph or under; needle in eco in eco mode, my range will be 35mi or less...

That doesn't jibe with what you wrote earlier.

Although it does sound as though you have battery degradation, we won't know until you measure it. What follow-up did you have with the dealer after their "technician's fiddling" supposedly fixed the problem? I would still be tempted to try to get the dealership to provide you with a quantitative battery capacity readout - this is a brave new world of production electric vehicles and I would expect that figure to be a relevant part of a used vehicle purchase from a dealership - just as an odometer reading or ICE engine health check.